thatchers died

[rynnor]

its not about the north always been poor rynnor if you intend to make nearly 200,000 people redundant it would be prudent to have something in place to to get them all back in work asap? this was her doing she pulled the plug on the mines rightly or wrongly my point is she didnt do anything to help the workers after. she basically said i win you lose now suffer cos i wont be helping you.

It is not the job of governments to provide jobs - their task is to create the conditions where the economy can create jobs.

They got benefits after - they weren't left to starve - beyond that people have to follow the jobs not the other way around - if you start trying to create jobs in areas the private sector isn't interested its just an enhanced dole payment.

Labour are good at spending money - Labour are fantastic at producing non-jobs that drain the public purse - neither of these things is good for the country as a whole.

 

[DaGaffer]

Chippers long rant above - the north has always been poor - even the industrial revolution was a midlands/southern thing.

Bollocks. The industrial revolution started in the North. The first railways were in the North, the first widespread manufacturing took place in the North. Liverpool was once the richest port on the whole planet. The Industrial revolution was emphatically not a southern thing, at all.

I heard someone blame her for the death of manufacturing despite it being in decline from the 50s.

We became horribly innefficient and expensive and our quality was crap = extinction.

Yes but she threw the baby out with the bathwater. As I pointed out in an earlier post, her view was that Britain was becoming a post-industrial economy and had to concentrate on the service and financial sectors. Now Britain was indeed inefficient compared to other countries, but that was all fixable, especially once the unions had been tamed, but I personally think she saw manufacturing as a hotbed of political opposition, so she let it die. This was self-evidently a mistake as the Germans have proved. The problem now is how exposed by the financial sector the UK is compared to other economies; "too big to fail" is more true of the UK than anywhere.

 

[Tom]

And guess what, someone else wants me to do a live tonight. So that's another mortgage payment in the bank, up yours lefties.

 

[Wij]

Bollocks. The industrial revolution started in the North. The first railways were in the North, the first widespread manufacturing took place in the North. Liverpool was once the richest port on the whole planet. The Industrial revolution was emphatically not a southern thing, at all.

This. Look up the history of the industrial revolution. Newcomen engines were deployed where coal was mined, primarily in the north and Black Country.

 

[chipper]

It is not the job of governments to provide jobs - their task is to create the conditions where the economy can create jobs.

They got benefits after - they weren't left to starve - beyond that people have to follow the jobs not the other way around - if you start trying to create jobs in areas the private sector isn't interested its just an enhanced dole payment.

Labour are good at spending money - Labour are fantastic at producing non-jobs that drain the public purse - neither of these things is good for the country as a whole.

sorry but thats bolloxs it was a nationalised industry not the private sector the government was responsible and what conditions did they create up north? oh yes one of poverty and crime and as for the benefits i aint even touching that.

follow the jobs? where to exactly? most miners were unskilled workers there was no work for them anywhere.

 

[DaGaffer]

sorry but thats bolloxs it was a nationalised industry not the private sector the government was responsible and what conditions did they create up north? oh yes one of poverty and crime and as for the benefits i aint even touching that.

follow the jobs? where to exactly? most miners were unskilled workers there was no work for them anywhere.

The role of a nationalised industry isn't to create jobs either. There are economic reasons for nationalisation (e.g. natural monopolies where competition doesn't work, strategic assets etc.) but digging holes in the ground to keep unskilled workers busy isn't one of them. The mines would have closed anyway.

 

[Aoami]

m.aol.com/music/blog/spinner/2013/04/08/morrissey-billy-bragg-margaret-thatcher/
Billy Bragg gets it

 

[chipper]

its not about the mines its about the people and the lives and communties affected and the complete lack of support from the tories at the time. things have turned out ok for most places in yorkshire but that is largely down to labour and there huge cash boost to rebuild yorkshire. refuse to believe if the tories had remained in power south yorkshire would be doing as well as it is now.
im not blowing labours trumpet they saw an area of easy support and grabbed it thats politics.

 

[Access Denied]

She stole my milk!!!! -shakes fist-

 

[DaGaffer]

its not about the mines its about the people and the lives and communties affected and the complete lack of support from the tories at the time. things have turned out ok for most places in yorkshire but that is largely down to labour and there huge cash boost to rebuild yorkshire. refuse to believe if the tories had remained in power south yorkshire would be doing as well as it is now.
im not blowing labours trumpet they saw an area of easy support and grabbed it thats politics.

Yes, and now all the money that Labour pissed up a wall on redevelopment and public sector non-jobs has to be paid for. I don't have a problem with government-led economic stimulus where you get something tangible out of it (e.g. spending money on infrastructure projects like roads etc.) but creating civil servant jobs in Yorkshire and Newcastle and Northern Ireland that weren't justified in the first place is ultimately self-defeating.

 

[rynnor]

Yes but she threw the baby out with the bathwater. As I pointed out in an earlier post, her view was that Britain was becoming a post-industrial economy and had to concentrate on the service and financial sectors. Now Britain was indeed inefficient compared to other countries, but that was all fixable, especially once the unions had been tamed, but I personally think she saw manufacturing as a hotbed of political opposition, so she let it die. This was self-evidently a mistake as the Germans have proved. The problem now is how exposed by the financial sector the UK is compared to other economies; "too big to fail" is more true of the UK than anywhere.

I dont think it was reformable tbh - too much entitlement culture and overblown wages for unskilled jobs.

You seriously think people would accept half the wages for doing a better job just to be competitive? Quality control over here was almost non existent in mass manufacturing.

The Germans were and are a much more practical people who understand they are in a global market - the 70s in the UK were just constant strikes - no company would invest in that.

We only got some manufacturing back years later when people were more realistic about wages and quality/productivity was ok - not great but ok.

We also do niche engineering/manufacturing now but mass manufacturing will never come back - even if Thatcher had not pulled the plug it would have been dead by now - at least she saved the rest of us from subsidising its death throes for decades.

 

[rynnor]

This. Look up the history of the industrial revolution. Newcomen engines were deployed where coal was mined, primarily in the north and Black Country.

The Black country - which is in the midlands - which is what I said but hey why read others posts eh

 

[rynnor]

Bollocks. The industrial revolution started in the North. The first railways were in the North, the first widespread manufacturing took place in the North. Liverpool was once the richest port on the whole planet. The Industrial revolution was emphatically not a southern thing, at all.

Your talking about the midlands really - the regions known as the north east and north west have always been dirt poor - the exceptions were coal mining (the miners were literally dirt poor but the mine owners did well) and later Steel.

Of course coal mining in china has basically rendered coal mining in the UK pretty much un-economic - only shallow seams that are open cast minable are viable now and they dont need many guys to operate.

Liverpool was rich on slave plantation sugar and the fruits of the british empire largely.

 

[rynnor]

sorry but thats bolloxs it was a nationalised industry not the private sector the government was responsible and what conditions did they create up north? oh yes one of poverty and crime and as for the benefits i aint even touching that.

follow the jobs? where to exactly? most miners were unskilled workers there was no work for them anywhere.

It was private industry that was no longer viable that was nationalised by a Labour party run by the unions with no plan for what to do with it other than continuously pump in taxpayers money.

Follow the jobs to the cities perhaps? Get some education (which was still free and they gave you grants back then) - or they could throw up their arms and just mass claim disability benefit - which most did.

 

[DaGaffer]

Your talking about the midlands really - the regions known as the north east and north west have always been dirt poor - the exceptions were coal mining (the miners were literally dirt poor but the mine owners did well) and later Steel.

Of course coal mining in china has basically rendered coal mining in the UK pretty much un-economic - only shallow seams that are open cast minable are viable now and they dont need many guys to operate.

Liverpool was rich on slave plantation sugar and the fruits of the british empire largely.

So now Manchester is the Midlands? Liverpool got rich off the triangular trade but the engine of that was cotton brought into the north to the northern mills.

...by 1835 "Manchester was without challenge the first and greatest industrial city in the world."

 

[rynnor]

I don't have a problem with her reforming the type of economy the way she did. I have a problem with her gutting social safeguards and loosening up economic controls so much that we're in the shit right now for it.

I think the most damaging thing she did was to give govt support to the global warming theory - its cost us all (and will continue to cost us all) billions to no gain.

 

[rynnor]

So now Manchester is the Midlands? Liverpool got rich off the triangular trade but the engine of that was cotton brought into the north to the northern mills.

Cotton grown by slaves.

 

[caLLous]

If I used to get told off by my brummy mate for calling him a northerner there's no way you're getting away with putting Manchester in the midlands.

 

[Scouse]

I think the most damaging thing she did was to give govt support to the global warming theory - its cost us all (and will continue to cost us all) billions to no gain.

Lol!

Thatcher cut the balls off support for environmental groups in the UK - which were HUGELY popular in the 70's.

Remember "Swampy"? That was her idea - to have crusty idiots forefront in the minds of the public when it came to environmental issues of any kind.

 

[Everz]

If I used to get told off by my brummy mate for calling him a northerner there's no way you're getting away with putting Manchester in the midlands.

We are neither southern or northern tbfh.

 

[rynnor]

If I used to get told off by my brummy mate for calling him a northerner there's no way you're getting away with putting Manchester in the midlands.

Manchester would be pushing it - but Manchester and Liverpool are the exceptions that prove the rule. Newcastle has rehabilitated itself a bit - a lot of that with state jobs though so long term its questionable.

The Northeast is about the poorest region I have visited in the UK with the least going for it - not much can ever really change that tbh.

Cornwall would be about the same if not for the Tourism but Yorkshire doesnt have the climate for that - people want warm/sun.

North Wales would also be poor but it does well from tourism having great natural beauty and is just about close enough for the second homes mob - plus scousers holiday there

 

[rynnor]

Lol!

Thatcher cut the balls off support for environmental groups in the UK - which were HUGELY popular in the 70's.

Remember "Swampy"? That was her idea - to have crusty idiots forefront in the minds of the public when it came to environmental issues of any kind.

Have you gone a bit tinfoil hat? She created middle class dropouts who liked direct action and now live in Surbiton?

The environmental lobby have always been dewey eyed fundamentalists living in a different world tbh - no one invented that.

Edit - she had also been out of power for some years by the time of swampy but dont let that stop you blaming her Scouse

 

[Job]

When Mags came into power we had just been bailed out by the IMF just like Greece and strict austerity measures were attached' oh how history repeats itself' she didn't just tweak a few things, she turned a serious decline into growth and those clueless lefties are so blinded by ideology that they refuse to accept it was done by a Tory snob.

 

[caLLous]

We are neither southern or northern tbfh.

To be fair I grew up in Salisbury and we were both at Uni in Plymouth at the time. Everywhere was north.

 

[DaGaffer]

Cotton grown by slaves.

Irrelevant to your thesis.

 

[Lamp]

I hear the coal miners are celebrating Thatcher's death tonight.
Enjoy the party lads. You haven't got work in the morning.

 

[Hawkwind]

She modernized the working landscape in Britain. Took the power away from the unions and gave it back to the employers. People only remember the bad times, the coal miners and the Falkland's. Her stance on EU and monetary policy has been proved right time and time again. The move away from manufacturing based economy.

I started work in the Thatcher era and unions at the time were out of control. The first company (Smiths Industries Aerospace) I joined had a closed shop union policy. I did not want to join a union but had no choice. When I tried to leave the union (AEU) I was told by the union officials that I was not allowed to leave. I joined MSF just to piss them off and it caused so much trouble I had to move locations . The power they had was stupid. We once had a walkout at our Basingstoke plant (2500 people) because a manager had gone into the machine shop early one morning to retrieve a notepad left from a meeting. He switched on a light in order to find it and unfortunately switching on the lights in the machine shop was a union job! Laughable at time but it was a nice day and the pubs were open in a hour so 90% voted yes. This was a hands up vote no ballot.

Unfortunately the world was changing, all the politicians knew it but no one wanted to act on it. At least she was strong enough to pull the country through it, kicking and screaming. I'm sure many of her peers at the time would have given up. Yes, a lot of people suffered and that was unfortunate but we simply could not compete in the large industrial manufacturing arena. We would have only delayed the pain and it would have been ten times worse later on. The change from a manufacturing base to a services base was absolutely required for the UK.

RIP to a strong leader who was more admired abroad than at home.

 

[Embattle]

I don't like unions and probably never will, in the past they were much worse than todays versions and generally most of the damage was self inflicted.

 

[Job]

I remember my first day at work..fifty of us in a room and the union rep walked in and said...hands up who doesnt want to be in the union...

 

[Olgaline]

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the basic idea of and need for unions.

I'm happy that I have a union to have my back in legal cases, to ensure a minimum wage with in my field of work.
To ensure that I have a right to 5 weeks vaction, and that no one within my field of work can undermine that or abuse
workers. Thats what unions should be and should do - protect the basic rights and interrests of thier members.

However at some point somewhere in the 60-90's it went tits up for some, and where it turned from basic rights
and wages to ridiculous demands and rules ala Hawk's example. "I've also heard worse and more insane examples
where even common decency and compassion is set aside in the name of union rules - Not becuase it nessersarily makes any sence,
or because it protects the union member from attritional or arduous tasks , not because the task poses any danger to the union member.
But solely to make the work as easy and as comfortable as possible for the union member. Or becuase another union "has the right" to that task.
And thats NOT what unions should be about.

But hey, they are no better or worse than any other modern interest groups