Surprised? (RR thread)

[Bubble]

gratz hibs

should have got the power relic tbh

 

[fungus]

yeah.. the run over! :<

bad roo!

tho i hope the hibbies will stop stealthzerging now when they got str relics ;D

I agree with grivne BAN ALL STEALTHERS !!!

 

[Boggy]

The casting part isn't necessary, it's one of the most frustrating bugs in the game. Until Mythic fix this I can never see them trying to balance / fix Animists where they really need it.

Double-checked this with the Animist TL. Shrooms DO NOT CAST THROUGH WALLS. It is as I said, they start to cast on someone who comes into LoS and always finish the cast they start.

 

[Gamah]

Gratz to the hibs QQ about loosing a relic.

And still hibs and mids are pounding alb's arse

 

[Gamah]

Double-checked this with the Animist TL. Shrooms DO NOT CAST THROUGH WALLS. It is as I said, they start to cast on someone who comes into LoS and always finish the cast they start.

Yes...Not cool when you pop out from behind a wall and see a 100 shrooms, Not even a point in running

 

[Cavex ElSaviour]

Little resume :

20 CET - RR start with 90 hibs - getting fast eras and towers
22 CET - Hibs moving to surs and start getting towers
24 CET- Hibs get surs
01:30 CET- thats the best moment of the night, albs come to surs with +12fg while hibs were moving to beno , only 4 fg hibs get inside > albs get surs and hibs hold in the top of the stairs during 30 minutes till we decided to rush the albs with ml8 banelord + moc on dorga +twf , the there was the major wipe i saw in my life in daoc and get again surs.
04 CET- Hibs regrp and head beno, albs holded very nice there, this time there was more hibs than albs. Very nice defending there by PE
05 CET -Mile Gates are open , 50 hibs in the BG, no new about mids, they keep trying to get berk- First try to pass the mile gates, albs wipe hibs with mg camping skills ( loads of casters on top , traps etc.. )
05:30 CET- Hibs decided new tactic in mile gates, some dudes will ps and then we avoid traps and bombs, we rushed by the left , some albs were asleep on the right Battlement we passed them and headed fast to get relic and move it at speed 1+sprint to Caer Eras from the rk ... That was the fault of albs , the best rr chars in alb were in retaking surs while we did the second attemp on the mile gate. Rk holder get a boat to hib and the relic raid end at 06 CET .

/Victory

OMG, that has been one LONG RR

 

[haarewin]

grats fellow hibbies on your determination on getting a relic \o>

 

[willowywicca]

Double-checked this with the Animist TL. Shrooms DO NOT CAST THROUGH WALLS. It is as I said, they start to cast on someone who comes into LoS and always finish the cast they start.

so in other words you're saying, "They DO NOT CAST THROUGH WALLS, except when they start and then DO CAST THROUGH WALLS". Seriously, the problem is that even if you get out of los of them they still will always finish casting on you (unless they die first, and killing the animist doesn't kill them either). I can still remember the time saitoh mezzed a rooter shroom that was casting at me at AMG in OF, when I was almost to mmg it finished casting and I was rooted there, about 2/3 of a zone away.. No spells should have inifinite range and no los checks (after the initial start casting checks), they should all have a final check when the casting time is finished to ensure that the target is still in range and in view.. animist pets do not do this, and that's part of the problem with them.

 

[Mojo]

so in other words you're saying, "They DO NOT CAST THROUGH WALLS, except when they start and then DO CAST THROUGH WALLS".

Yes but seems to be same for anything, archers, caster whatever, they start to cast you run for cover and get hit anyway.

So yes shrooms do it, but so do you, me and everyone else.

 

[Boggy]

Most casters have 2 los checks and if the target goes out of los before they finish casting the spell does not fire.

Shrooms are different in that respect, but I suppose we could argue all day as to whether it's a problem. They have a 3 sec cast, which means if they did 2 LoS checks, people would be able to pop in LoS, nuke them, then leave LoS. Since 3 secs is about longer than almost every other spell/ability in the game post-ToA, they'd be virtually useless.

One solution would be to make shroom spells instas with 3 sec recast timers. That way shrooms would only ever cast on something in LoS and it would not affect their damage output over time. Wouldn't make your life any easier though.

Given the circumstances required for a shroom to land a spell someone not in LoS (person has to pop, be targetted and exit LoS all in a space of 3 secs), shrooms hitting people out of LoS is still going to be rare, and in most occasions it will be an entirely fair hit given that the person would otherwise be able to nuke the shrooms with impunity.

Anyone wanna talk about Caba pets?

 

[VidX]

Problem is that the second LoS checks apply only to players, all NPCs/mobs only seem to have the one check, and keep guards don't seem to have any :s

I think that if any mob is in the process of casting a non-interuptable spell, CC only delays the cast, and doesn't cancel it. Meaning that if, as you say Malev, a mob/pet with only 1 LoS check starts casting a spell, gets mezzed/stunned, it then completes the spell when the CC wears off.

 

[remi]

the los problem is with lagg i think, ive seen albs lagg outside keeps, and i could just nooook them like hell xD


(happen alo too myself this weekend of lagg aswell)

 

[willowywicca]

Yes but seems to be same for anything, archers, caster whatever, they start to cast you run for cover and get hit anyway.

So yes shrooms do it, but so do you, me and everyone else.

that only happens because of lag tho, it's not intended to be that way, and in a lag free environment it wouldn't happen. Atm with the current opentransit problems it happens *a lot* but once they're fixed you'll see it's a far rarer occurance (also for arrows/bolts, it may appear that they don't do a final los check, but it's a case of that after they perform the 2nd los check the projectile takes a while to reach you.. and if during that travel time you move out of los you will still be hit. I have no problem with this as they still had to do the same 2 checks everyone else had to, it would be unfair for arrows/bolts to be subject to a third check).

 

[Edlina]

Would you prefer mythic changing shrooms cast time to 1 - 1.5 seconds then like normal spells? If you think that's better I suggest you campaing for it, only makes shrooms better if you ask me...

Fact is, a fire wizard can probably cast 2 aoe spells faster than the shrooms can cast 1 spell thus killing the stack (if stacked) shrooms before they even get off 1 spell... and if 2 fire wizards ever dreamed of assisting it'd be a walk in the park to both get an aoe spell off before the shrooms finished their 3 seconds cast time...

 

[saitoh]

so in other words you're saying, "They DO NOT CAST THROUGH WALLS, except when they start and then DO CAST THROUGH WALLS". Seriously, the problem is that even if you get out of los of them they still will always finish casting on you (unless they die first, and killing the animist doesn't kill them either). I can still remember the time saitoh mezzed a rooter shroom that was casting at me at AMG in OF, when I was almost to mmg it finished casting and I was rooted there, about 2/3 of a zone away.. No spells should have inifinite range and no los checks (after the initial start casting checks), they should all have a final check when the casting time is finished to ensure that the target is still in range and in view.. animist pets do not do this, and that's part of the problem with them.

nerf my mezz ?

 

[willowywicca]

Would you prefer mythic changing shrooms cast time to 1 - 1.5 seconds then like normal spells? If you think that's better I suggest you campaing for it, only makes shrooms better if you ask me...

Fact is, a fire wizard can probably cast 2 aoe spells faster than the shrooms can cast 1 spell thus killing the stack (if stacked) shrooms before they even get off 1 spell... and if 2 fire wizards ever dreamed of assisting it'd be a walk in the park to both get an aoe spell off before the shrooms finished their 3 seconds cast time...

fire wizz can only do that if not interupted by something else (yeah, that's "likely"). if he QC's he gets one spell off only a tiny amount of time before the shrooms hit him. as for improving their cast speed.. I would say there is no valid reason why they should have a faster casting speed than other pets, animists already have the fastest casting DD in game (2.5s lifetap)

 

[Boggy]

Think you're misrepresenting the argument a bit.

Mine are static and have a 1000 range. Anyone can stand 1200 away and nuke them with no danger to themselves. Even in range the cast time is 1 sec slower than qc and MUCH slower than your typical ToA'd caster.

This compares to your pet, who chain stuns people through walls and is mobile.

Bit frustrating to me that you complain about my pets when they have very few applications and win me very few fights, whereas your pet is powerful in all sorts of situations.

If shrooms had a second LoS check my pets would go from being only useful sometimes to being completely pointless.

If you want to see how much use a shroom would be against another nuker, kill your pet, encumber yourself, take off all buffs and equipment, let a runie nearsight you then use a level 40DD to try to kill him while he tries to kill you.

 

[Equendil]

Seriously, I would love for some hibbies to switch realm with albs for a hour or so in one those of those 'sursbrooke' situations. Sure is easier to charge albs bunched up in a tiny room knowing :

- There isn't going to be a dozen casters spamming PBAE as soon as you charge. Or doing it premptively just in case you'd want to.
- There isn't going to be a field of shrooms automatically nuking people concentrating fire most of the time.
- You won't get stunned like hell by ennemy casters, meaning you can back off when you have to.
- You can insta most albs when charging and win the early interrupt war easy.

Hell, I'm wondering if most hibs even realize how easy they have it in keep sieges just thanks to stun. Not so easy when ennemies can run out of sight/range before you can land your second spell.

 

[Edlina]

fire wizz can only do that if not interupted by something else (yeah, that's "likely"). if he QC's he gets one spell off only a tiny amount of time before the shrooms hit him. as for improving their cast speed.. I would say there is no valid reason why they should have a faster casting speed than other pets, animists already have the fastest casting DD in game (2.5s lifetap)

Uhm, they are immobile, if you can't stay out of range from them at open field as a caster and aoe nuke them something is wrong (or you don't have anything aoe ofc) and if you apply a double los check in non open field situations you could avoid totally being hit by the shrooms by moving in and out within 3 seconds.

Every (?) other pet in the game can run after their targets shrooms can't do anything with a double los check, and having 2 firewizards both qc their aoe dd to kill the stack of shrooms before they can finish casting killing any stack of shrooms can't be that much of a hassle, if shrooms are as bad as ppl make it sound... Obviously before attacking the hibs not just as any random time as anyone know pet spamming while standing in a fop is quite op for both animists and theurgists.

 

[willowywicca]

Think you're misrepresenting the argument a bit.

Mine are static and have a 1000 range. Anyone can stand 1200 away and nuke them with no danger to themselves. Even in range the cast time is 1 sec slower than qc and MUCH slower than your typical ToA'd caster.

This compares to your pet, who chain stuns people through walls and is mobile.

Bit frustrating to me that you complain about my pets when they have very few applications and win me very few fights, whereas your pet is powerful in all sorts of situations.

If shrooms had a second LoS check my pets would go from being only useful sometimes to being completely pointless.

If you want to see how much use a shroom would be against another nuker, kill your pet, encumber yourself, take off all buffs and equipment, let a runie nearsight you then use a level 40DD to try to kill him while he tries to kill you.

Caba pet shouldn't be able to attack through walls either, I have never stated it should be. And chain stunning is fixed in 1.72(I think it was), because, it simply shouldn't be there.

I'd be interested to see a caster who can't start 1200 distance from a caba pet and not nuke it down before it's able to threaten them, or atleast have it very low on life and after a qc CC easily kill it.

Also, you have 15 immobile pets, while I have 1 mobile pet. Your pets will automatically target on their own from 1000 distance while you can be doing other things, mine will only automatically attack enemies if they get into about 300 units range, the only people who get that close being melee types who can easily ignore the pet and kill me. Which also kills off my pet, yours remain after your death.

Also, the mobility factor results in pets being much easier to kill.. after you charge up round a corner unless I'm careful my pet will follow you back down to your friends when you hide out of los and will pretty much die instantly. Your shrooms will stay put and not get needlessly killed requiring you to spend 40% power summoning a new one and rebuffing it (or maybe a bit less if you have lots of int cap, aug acuity and ethereal bond, power% and power cap to increase your pow pool).

Mobile pets are however superior in most open field encounters, but NF has very few of those, almost everything is centered around keeps, towers and bridges.

As for that whole "get naked unbuffed encumbered and nearsighted crap" that would serve absolutely no purpose whatsoever. That would show me what it would like if I were a single shroom. However animists are *not* a single shroom. they are up to 15 shrooms *and* many other caster abilities too.

 

[Lejemorder]

Caba pet shouldn't be able to attack through walls either, I have never stated it should be. And chain stunning is fixed in 1.72(I think it was), because, it simply shouldn't be there.

I'd be interested to see a caster who can't start 1200 distance from a caba pet and not nuke it down before it's able to threaten them, or atleast have it very low on life and after a qc CC easily kill it.

Also, you have 15 immobile pets, while I have 1 mobile pet. Your pets will automatically target on their own from 1000 distance while you can be doing other things, mine will only automatically attack enemies if they get into about 300 units range, the only people who get that close being melee types who can easily ignore the pet and kill me. Which also kills off my pet, yours remain after your death.

cabalist pet still chain stun, mythic changed it back 1 week after.

and u cant just ignore an amber pet, as they will most likely chain stun, making the cabalist abel to lifetab em.

 

[Evul]

Sorcs = Over powered. Dont see much whine on them as there is on animist

 

[Boggy]

Caba pet shouldn't be able to attack through walls either, I have never stated it should be. And chain stunning is fixed in 1.72(I think it was), because, it simply shouldn't be there.

I'd be interested to see a caster who can't start 1200 distance from a caba pet and not nuke it down before it's able to threaten them, or atleast have it very low on life and after a qc CC easily kill it.

Also, you have 15 immobile pets, while I have 1 mobile pet. Your pets will automatically target on their own from 1000 distance while you can be doing other things, mine will only automatically attack enemies if they get into about 300 units range, the only people who get that close being melee types who can easily ignore the pet and kill me. Which also kills off my pet, yours remain after your death.

Also, the mobility factor results in pets being much easier to kill.. after you charge up round a corner unless I'm careful my pet will follow you back down to your friends when you hide out of los and will pretty much die instantly. Your shrooms will stay put and not get needlessly killed requiring you to spend 40% power summoning a new one and rebuffing it (or maybe a bit less if you have lots of int cap, aug acuity and ethereal bond, power% and power cap to increase your pow pool).

Mobile pets are however superior in most open field encounters, but NF has very few of those, almost everything is centered around keeps, towers and bridges.

As for that whole "get naked unbuffed encumbered and nearsighted crap" that would serve absolutely no purpose whatsoever. That would show me what it would like if I were a single shroom. However animists are *not* a single shroom. they are up to 15 shrooms *and* many other caster abilities too.

Chain stunning might get fixed, but the stunning through walls does not.

It doesn't matter whether I have 1 or 16 pets up. If you stand out of range, none of them can hurt you.

My pet will NOT automatically target you. It will automatically pick a random target. It could just as eaily target a keep guard or your pet and get aggro on me as target the Caba about to kill me. You can tell your target to come attack me then nuke me down from out of my pet range. I know you can because you've done it plenty of time.

You you say there's no open field - which is untrue anyway - but my pets are not useful in tower battles particularly either. In tower defense I have to place them in plain sight at points close to the tower, making them easy to avoid/nuke. In tower offense there are very few places I can cast them where the shrooms can actually target the enemy (they don't target above head height).

I've been quite sympathetic to people with legitimate complaints about shrooms. I would not like to take them on inside a keep. I also think any LoS bug (making them impossible for someone to attack) should be fixed as soon as possible. But to have to listen to someone who kills me on a regular basis try to pretend that shrooms are some kind of uber pet is silly.

Shrooms are useful sometimes, but most times they are not.

 

[haarewin]

cabalist pet still chain stun, mythic changed it back 1 week after.

was 1 day

 

[willowywicca]

Chain stunning might get fixed, but the stunning through walls does not.

It doesn't matter whether I have 1 or 16 pets up. If you stand out of range, none of them can hurt you.

My pet will NOT automatically target you. It will automatically pick a random target. It could just as eaily target a keep guard or your pet and get aggro on me as target the Caba about to kill me. You can tell your target to come attack me then nuke me down from out of my pet range. I know you can because you've done it plenty of time.

You you say there's no open field - which is untrue anyway - but my pets are not useful in tower battles particularly either. In tower defense I have to place them in plain sight at points close to the tower, making them easy to avoid/nuke. In tower offense there are very few places I can cast them where the shrooms can actually target the enemy (they don't target above head height).

I've been quite sympathetic to people with legitimate complaints about shrooms. I would not like to take them on inside a keep. I also think any LoS bug (making them impossible for someone to attack) should be fixed as soon as possible. But to have to listen to someone who kills me on a regular basis try to pretend that shrooms are some kind of uber pet is silly.

Shrooms are useful sometimes, but most times they are not.

Firstly about "You can tell your [pet] to come attack me then nuke me down from out of my pet range". Telling pets to attack has a fixed 1500 range, while my DDing range can reach up to 1650 with 10% range bonus, if you stand 500 units behind your shrooms from me, I cannot send my pet to attack you without getting shrooms casting on me, if you stand 650 units behind I cannot nuke you without shrooms attacking me. Also, again I must remind you, you can nuke me back too, your lifetap (and bombers if you spec that way) have the same range as my lifetaps/DoTs.

Similarily to it not mattering whether you have 1 or 15 pets up and cannot attack me if I stay out of range, similarily *all* pets have a max range before they can be sent to attack (1500 for the attack command, slightly further if they are automatically moving to defend you in defensive mode when you are attacked). The only difference is whether they chase you after you move out of range. If you have 15 shrooms up, you will hit 15 times after someone moves into range. If someone moves in range of my pet, they can kill it before it reaches them (if they are alert and notice it coming in advance) or have a long amount of time to CC it. even if their QC is down they can QC again before it hits them 15 times since base attack speed on pets is 4 seconds, modified by buffs, but it doesn't get below 2 seconds.

Whether I kill you or not on a regular basis has absolutely no bearing on this discussion. It can be put down to the simple fact that I have much more RvR experience as a caster than you (Note: I am not saying you're bad player, or that I'm a better player, merely that I have more practice).

cabalist pet still chain stun, mythic changed it back 1 week after.

and u cant just ignore an amber pet, as they will most likely chain stun, making the cabalist abel to lifetab em.

That was 1.71, in 1.72 chain stunning *was* fixed. (Except not for theurg pets apparently). And testing has shown that while the chance of a single stun was pretty high (about 40% oO) the chance of a double stun was only 7%~ and triple or further was much lower.. also stun range is max 700 from the pet, so unless you're right near the door, the caba pet won't be able to stun you through walls (since when it tries to reach you it always runs endlessly at the door)

 

[KOOKen]

 

[willowywicca]

<some image>

Don't read the thread then?

 

[Justicator]

Don't read the thread then?

His e-penis is not big enough yet.

 

[Boggy]

Firstly about "You can tell your [pet] to come attack me then nuke me down from out of my pet range". Telling pets to attack has a fixed 1500 range, while my DDing range can reach up to 1650 with 10% range bonus, if you stand 500 units behind your shrooms from me, I cannot send my pet to attack you without getting shrooms casting on me, if you stand 650 units behind I cannot nuke you without shrooms attacking me. Also, again I must remind you, you can nuke me back too, your lifetap (and bombers if you spec that way) have the same range as my lifetaps/DoTs.

Similarily to it not mattering whether you have 1 or 15 pets up and cannot attack me if I stay out of range, similarily *all* pets have a max range before they can be sent to attack (1500 for the attack command, slightly further if they are automatically moving to defend you in defensive mode when you are attacked). The only difference is whether they chase you after you move out of range. If you have 15 shrooms up, you will hit 15 times after someone moves into range. If someone moves in range of my pet, they can kill it before it reaches them (if they are alert and notice it coming in advance) or have a long amount of time to CC it. even if their QC is down they can QC again before it hits them 15 times since base attack speed on pets is 4 seconds, modified by buffs, but it doesn't get below 2 seconds.

Whether I kill you or not on a regular basis has absolutely no bearing on this discussion. It can be put down to the simple fact that I have much more RvR experience as a caster than you (Note: I am not saying you're bad player, or that I'm a better player, merely that I have more practice).

Well that's a nice way to try to play with the facts. The fact is both of us have spells with 1500 base range, whereas you have a mobile pet with 1500 range and I have a static pet with 1000 range.

So ... yes, if we carefully position ourselves with your cooperation so that my shrooms are between me and you, we can engineer a situation where my 1000 range pets can hit you. However, since you and your pet are both able to walk around my shrooms, there is nothing to stop you doing so. And since it takes me a lot of power and time to recast my shrooms, there is really no way I can keep moving with you.

This assumes of course you don't (a) just aoedot my shrooms from out of range or (b) just wait for my shrooms to expire, since I cannot approach within 1500 of you without getting your pet on me and I cannot maintain enough shrooms to be dangerous indefinitely.

I'm sure you like to think that the reason you kill people is only ever down to skill, but as an experience player I am pretty sure you realise available abilities and other factors (eg. client-side performance) have a huge amount to do with it (not that I am denying your skill). It's not JUST you that kills me a lot and it's not JUST me that gets killed a lot. ALL animists are at a major disadvantage to most other nukers in open field situations or indeed any situation not allowing a sheltered camp to be established way before INC.

And why does it bother me to see someone complaining about my shrooms when they kill me a lot? As I have said, I have very few places in the game where I am in a position to play to my strengths. When people complain about those few times, it is very frustrating.

 

[Nerwen]

Problem me and a few other wizards i talked to had in Erasleigh few nights ago (before we ld'ed) was that we targeted the shrooms and tried to ae-nuke them but always got a message saying "your target is not visible". this continued even while standing right next to a shroom.
So don't know if this was due to the enormous lag, some keepfight bug or whatever. Sure is it was very anoying.