Subs, lay offs and spin
- Thread starter Aiteal
- Start date
Sharkith
Can't get enough of FH
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Why can't i catapult myself into a keep
That should be possible if u ask me
would be very very cool imo!!
Flimgoblin
It's my birthday today!
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- Dec 24, 2003
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literally into the keep wall
Roo Stercogburn
Resident Freddy
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If Mythic could add to the redundancy list the dev that wrote the piece of shit client front end that locks the PC up every time there is a patch change and the firewall tries to prompt you for a changed program that would be appreciated.
That level of clown programming is frustrating as hell.
They've had nearly 10 years to thread this. They should have it working by now.
That level of clown programming is frustrating as hell.
They've had nearly 10 years to thread this. They should have it working by now.
Fafnir
Resident Freddy
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One of the things that made me quit, did lots of keep takes, heard quite alot from people saying something like.. Hahaha i just walked into keep as you killed lord, and the guy got the first bag.
And getting highest contribution and yet get no reward, then next keep take sitting afk watching tv then getting one of the bags is just crap.
J
Jenk
Guest
EA in "releasing over hyped, under developed game" SHOCKER
Expect "Warhammer: Hot Date" expansion this year.
Expect "Warhammer: Hot Date" expansion this year.
Maeloch
Part of the furniture
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Well it's complicated, and who knows if the economy going to the dogs is a plus or a minus. I've been tightening my belt a bit lately (more to do with overspending last year than anything about the credit crunch etc). One of the first things to go was DAoC subs which I was previous happy to pay despite only logging on occasionally. I think a fair amount of now-and-then players feeling the pinch might decide having 8 quid a week or whatever it is dribbling away is no longer money well spent. Although as you say, compared to going to the pub...
Maybe I am alone but I think Warhammer is doing quite ok right now. 300K subs is a true franchise unless they are still loosing players. Looking at X-Fire stats WAR has been very solid since 1/12 though so I doubt much is happening with the subscriber base at the moment.
The key for Mythic will be to deliver good patches with 1.2 and 1.3 - if they do that I believe they have a very good chance of growing the base during the year. There are so many MMOers out there that are tired of WoW after hitting max level for the third time.
For me - I enjoy the game after 1.1 (was very frustrated after beta and release and took a break). If 1.2 adds as much fixes as 1.1 they are in good shape (once again in my opinion).
The key for Mythic will be to deliver good patches with 1.2 and 1.3 - if they do that I believe they have a very good chance of growing the base during the year. There are so many MMOers out there that are tired of WoW after hitting max level for the third time.
For me - I enjoy the game after 1.1 (was very frustrated after beta and release and took a break). If 1.2 adds as much fixes as 1.1 they are in good shape (once again in my opinion).
Aiteal
Can't get enough of FH
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I dunno if Jacobs would agree with you
Given the targets he set himself
MTV Multiplayer EA Mythic: Activision Estimate That It Takes $1 Billion To Compete With ‘World Of Warcraft’ Is Overblown
I dunno if Jacobs would agree with you
Given the targets he set himself
MTV Multiplayer EA Mythic: Activision Estimate That It Takes $1 Billion To Compete With ‘World Of Warcraft’ Is Overblown
I love this quote from that interview:
"...if you’ve seen a game consolidate servers, you know it’s in deep, deep trouble — that’s not a healthy sign for an MMO...<snipped>...It will be the same for ‘Warhammer.’ Look at us six months out. Look at us six weeks out. If we’re not adding servers, we’re not doing well.”"
I just think one should separate what 300K subs mean in terms of the MMO industry (really good) and what MJ wanted it to be (clearly worse than what he wanted).
One of the problems is really that there are so many MMOers out there that try out a new game for a few weeks (does not cost much) and then come to the conclusion meh. It puts alot of strain on servers early on and then a large exodus. LotRO, AoC and WAR all shared that problem. LotRO is today a solid franchise, AoC is declining and with WAR the jury is still out there. Still the same initial bump and exodus to various degrees though.
This is clearly my own opinion but I think with 1.1 WAR became what it should have been at launch (solid T1-T3, some bugs still remaining and end-game in need of changes). 1.2 and 1.3 will determine WAR's fate. Either the current end-game gets the face lift it needs or it doesn't. If it does WAR has a future.
One of the problems is really that there are so many MMOers out there that try out a new game for a few weeks (does not cost much) and then come to the conclusion meh. It puts alot of strain on servers early on and then a large exodus. LotRO, AoC and WAR all shared that problem. LotRO is today a solid franchise, AoC is declining and with WAR the jury is still out there. Still the same initial bump and exodus to various degrees though.
This is clearly my own opinion but I think with 1.1 WAR became what it should have been at launch (solid T1-T3, some bugs still remaining and end-game in need of changes). 1.2 and 1.3 will determine WAR's fate. Either the current end-game gets the face lift it needs or it doesn't. If it does WAR has a future.
War is in deep trouble.
We have what? 8 servers in Europe, how many are high population?
The game promised "war is everywhere" to me at least that meant war between armies. Not some kind of skirmish game in instances scenarios.
Saying that subscription numbers always fall after release would be some kind of excuse is silly. If you are successful your subscription numbers will increase. They aren't.
Maybe things have changed in the two weeks since I last logged on (busy playing eve-o) but I doubt it. No action, everyone in scenarios or in closed warbands.
Then the end game, where the only larger pvp takes place, there they remove the ability for people to take part??? (any news on when the "fix" will be removed to be what they intended from the start...)
Meh, the game is mostly dead and I'm primarily waiting my sub to run out.
We have what? 8 servers in Europe, how many are high population?
The game promised "war is everywhere" to me at least that meant war between armies. Not some kind of skirmish game in instances scenarios.
Saying that subscription numbers always fall after release would be some kind of excuse is silly. If you are successful your subscription numbers will increase. They aren't.
Maybe things have changed in the two weeks since I last logged on (busy playing eve-o) but I doubt it. No action, everyone in scenarios or in closed warbands.
Then the end game, where the only larger pvp takes place, there they remove the ability for people to take part??? (any news on when the "fix" will be removed to be what they intended from the start...)
Meh, the game is mostly dead and I'm primarily waiting my sub to run out.
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Quoted from that report “Let’s just say north of half a million would mean we’re successful. Now how a far north? I wouldn’t mind being a little bit cold.”
Oh dear...
Anyway he doesn't even know that its in trouble, he refuses to listen to anyone because everything is GREAT!
Oh dear...
Anyway he doesn't even know that its in trouble, he refuses to listen to anyone because everything is GREAT!
Kami
Can't get enough of FH
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- Dec 22, 2003
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I hate to buck the thread trend, but I'm quite happy with the way Warhammer is going and fairly confident that I'll renew my subs in May when they come up again. I'm also not hugely worried by staff lay-offs. Give me a list and I could half the staff in my department without any loss in quality or workload - infact I'd bet it'd increase! Chances are there's a ton of deadwood at Mythic and lets face it, this recession is a great excuse to get rid of it.
Subs wise I think they're fairly healthy, people obsess over the numbers, but as long as theres a profit the game will keep developing, the driver will be developing it in the right way to gain future subs and new players. Mythic are painfully aware how quickly gamers can leave, DAOC was doing pretty well, for a game that was always in WoW's shadow. They cocked up - they admitted it too and lost a ton of people to other games.
I doubt very much that management will want to repeat that - they'll give WAR players what they want, but as with everything in I.T. that might take time, in which case it's a case of sticking about, or finding something else to play.
The sudden drop in subs numbers after release is the same for every game - Only WoW bucked this trend. The more important numbers will be the subs for Q2/3 of 2009, then we'll see how badly the dip is or if it's leveled out.
Too much doom and gloom around at the moment. Cheer up you miserable lot!
Subs wise I think they're fairly healthy, people obsess over the numbers, but as long as theres a profit the game will keep developing, the driver will be developing it in the right way to gain future subs and new players. Mythic are painfully aware how quickly gamers can leave, DAOC was doing pretty well, for a game that was always in WoW's shadow. They cocked up - they admitted it too and lost a ton of people to other games.
I doubt very much that management will want to repeat that - they'll give WAR players what they want, but as with everything in I.T. that might take time, in which case it's a case of sticking about, or finding something else to play.
The sudden drop in subs numbers after release is the same for every game - Only WoW bucked this trend. The more important numbers will be the subs for Q2/3 of 2009, then we'll see how badly the dip is or if it's leveled out.
Too much doom and gloom around at the moment. Cheer up you miserable lot!
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There would be hope that things would be fixed if they would even acknowledge that they exist. I made the mistake of re-subbing to see if anything had improved, that will be the last time I do that.
TheBinarySurfer
Can't get enough of FH
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Whoospie Mr Jacobs.
You're not doing well. Some honest here about the direction you intend to take with the game, and how you intend to address the fact your "rvr" endgame is actually a pve grind with a bit of rvr tacked on the side might keep you some subs.
Personally it's still hanging in the balance for me, especially given my rapidly deteriorating work-life balance currently (the joys of working on corporate recovery stuff lately - lots of work out there!).
Aiteal
Can't get enough of FH
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Kinda off topic I know (topic being that Jacobs is an arse who's outta his depth )
But this vid is fecking amazing
It might be "old", but I am too, and forget things alot
But that's really one hell of a dominant position to asail
YouTube - The Craft of War: BLIND
)But this vid is fecking amazing
It might be "old", but I am too, and forget things alot
But that's really one hell of a dominant position to asail
YouTube - The Craft of War: BLIND
The report of layoffs did not come as a surprise.
WAR sold 1.2M boxes to retailers, 750k to players in month 1 and another 50k in month 2 (the 'registered users' numbers).
At the end of Dec08 WAR had 300k+ subscribers - that is before those with a 3 month subscription came up for renewal and before the infamous 29th January statement.
MJ has subsequently said the game has a 70% (72% to be precise) retention rate. Some debate on what this means but the only sensible interpretation is that os those who subscribed after there 'free' month was up 70% were still subscribers at (presumably) the end of the year. A bit early to talk about retention rates imo but the flipside is that 30% decided not to extend their subscription probably beyond a 2nd month. Ouch.
Extending the 30% loss into January would suggest that the game could have had 210k at the end of January. But fear not for PB said that subs were rising - which MJ confirmed; but no one has said that that is growth on top of 300k. Silence has been golden.
Anyway I said the layoffs were not unexpected:
With 300k subscribers -
Assume that everyone pays $15 a month - so ignore any 3/6/9/12 month discounts
Assume that all the money goes directly to EA Mythic (so ignore GoA, exchange rates, the lot)
And you get a revenue stream of $4.5M per 30-days.
Now MJ said in January prior to the announcement that Mythic had nearly 400 folks working on the game at one time or another fixing it up.
There are lots of mean/average/min/max/median salary tables available in the US and the average for a dev in Fairfax is just under $77k.
On top of this there is tax/medical/dental/ matching 401k (i.e. pension) - adds over 50% so the average is over $110k.
Now admin staff and janitors earn less, MJ and co earn a lot more. For simplicity assume $130k a year or $10k per 30-day period. As a strawman it will do.
Ignore all on-going costs, servers, marketing, heating, lights, power, new computers, software licences etc. etc.
Ignore all GoA costs
Ignore any royalties to GW.
Ignore any internal interest rates on the development cost.
Basically ignore all costs except those of the US staff!
What you get is revenue of $450k per 30 days
and an expenditure per 30-days $400k.
Clearly costs are going to be more, much more - so no surprise that there had to be staff reductions. And if subscription numbers have dropped further then there could be more to come (we don't know how many have gone of course).
If anyone has any idea as to what GoAs costs are then the strawman could be improved but it is an indicator.
MJs figure of 500k may indeed represent 'comfortable profitability'.
Quick add: the only other source of money would be box sales - but with 1.2M sold to retailers and only 800k+ to people this may be a while coming. And box sales may go towards reducing the south of $100M development costs of course.
WAR sold 1.2M boxes to retailers, 750k to players in month 1 and another 50k in month 2 (the 'registered users' numbers).
At the end of Dec08 WAR had 300k+ subscribers - that is before those with a 3 month subscription came up for renewal and before the infamous 29th January statement.
MJ has subsequently said the game has a 70% (72% to be precise) retention rate. Some debate on what this means but the only sensible interpretation is that os those who subscribed after there 'free' month was up 70% were still subscribers at (presumably) the end of the year. A bit early to talk about retention rates imo but the flipside is that 30% decided not to extend their subscription probably beyond a 2nd month. Ouch.
Extending the 30% loss into January would suggest that the game could have had 210k at the end of January. But fear not for PB said that subs were rising - which MJ confirmed; but no one has said that that is growth on top of 300k. Silence has been golden.
Anyway I said the layoffs were not unexpected:
With 300k subscribers -
Assume that everyone pays $15 a month - so ignore any 3/6/9/12 month discounts
Assume that all the money goes directly to EA Mythic (so ignore GoA, exchange rates, the lot)
And you get a revenue stream of $4.5M per 30-days.
Now MJ said in January prior to the announcement that Mythic had nearly 400 folks working on the game at one time or another fixing it up.
There are lots of mean/average/min/max/median salary tables available in the US and the average for a dev in Fairfax is just under $77k.
On top of this there is tax/medical/dental/ matching 401k (i.e. pension) - adds over 50% so the average is over $110k.
Now admin staff and janitors earn less, MJ and co earn a lot more. For simplicity assume $130k a year or $10k per 30-day period. As a strawman it will do.
Ignore all on-going costs, servers, marketing, heating, lights, power, new computers, software licences etc. etc.
Ignore all GoA costs
Ignore any royalties to GW.
Ignore any internal interest rates on the development cost.
Basically ignore all costs except those of the US staff!
What you get is revenue of $450k per 30 days
and an expenditure per 30-days $400k.
Clearly costs are going to be more, much more - so no surprise that there had to be staff reductions. And if subscription numbers have dropped further then there could be more to come (we don't know how many have gone of course).
If anyone has any idea as to what GoAs costs are then the strawman could be improved but it is an indicator.
MJs figure of 500k may indeed represent 'comfortable profitability'.
Quick add: the only other source of money would be box sales - but with 1.2M sold to retailers and only 800k+ to people this may be a while coming. And box sales may go towards reducing the south of $100M development costs of course.
Tallen
Fledgling Freddie
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Kinda off topic I know (topic being that Jacobs is an arse who's outta his depth
But this vid is fecking amazing
It might be "old", but I am too, and forget things alot
But that's really one hell of a dominant position to asail
YouTube - The Craft of War: BLIND
Not quite sure why you posted that but thank you, I had never seen it before and it's great
Aiteal
Can't get enough of FH
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- Thread starter
- #84
Not quite sure why you posted that but thank you, I had never seen it before and it's great
hehe yeah
I did intend to ramble on about the vid being indicitive of how WoW has really ingrained itself as part of pop culture, and how difficult it is for any new MMO to compete with that.
But I watched it and figured it would be more fun to strip down to my pants and chase imaginary monsters around the house weilding a pair of plastic pirate swords I had from halloween a few years back.
So I did that instead
And it was fun tbh
Tallen
Fledgling Freddie
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rofl
Ctuchik
FH is my second home
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- Dec 23, 2003
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he knows, he just can't say it out loud. doing so would not help the game in any way at all. and the shareholders + EA would probably sue his arse off.
Everz
FH is my second home
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- Nov 7, 2004
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- 13,685
The best thing about WAR was that it sort of reinforced how good DAoC was. Bet Mythic are really kicking themselves in the nuts now considering if they had actually bothered with DAoC (be honest they havent given a monkeys in years) they could still be onto a real winner..
Shame, all they had to do with WAR was copy DAoC's winning formula and up the PvE a little bit.. EPIC FAIL.
:wub:
Shame, all they had to do with WAR was copy DAoC's winning formula and up the PvE a little bit.. EPIC FAIL.
:wub:
Poag
m00?
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- Mar 11, 2004
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Bring on DAoC2 ? :>
I'd like too see Camelot rendered in glorius medium of modern graphics...mmm
Mr_Grumpy
Fledgling Freddie
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- Nov 7, 2008
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Servers aside and how many each has and putting aside the actual style of gameplay, LoTRO right now makes WAR feel like a ghost town.
Logging from one to the other is amazing how many folk you see. LoTRO right now reminds me of old EQ, with folk in each major two area.
WAR on other hand is a little deserted and even Azgal isnt that busy.
Not saying either mmo is the same style wise and i know ones been out for awhile and while folk who like pvp dont usually like LoTRo, it does show that the numbers are not what they should be sadly
Why they didnt just do DAoC 2 i dunno
Logging from one to the other is amazing how many folk you see. LoTRO right now reminds me of old EQ, with folk in each major two area.
WAR on other hand is a little deserted and even Azgal isnt that busy.
Not saying either mmo is the same style wise and i know ones been out for awhile and while folk who like pvp dont usually like LoTRo, it does show that the numbers are not what they should be sadly
Why they didnt just do DAoC 2 i dunno