Stealthers gonna have to rethink tactics with TOA

[Jenna.]

Originally posted by Tesla Monkor
Yes. Compare spells to weapons. Nukes have a higher DPS that anything in the game. Just because it doesn't always work (Resists, the caster sucking at his class, whatever) doesn't make it any less so.

For that reason they have gimp armour. But we're deviating from the path (as usual on BW.).

All I can say is.. Damn, I'm happy I never bothered to level up an assassin.

On the paper casters do more damage then tanks but on the field casters face higher resistances (magical resist is usually higher than melee), spell getting resisted and the worst of all, being interrupted 90% of the time against good opponents. Against people that dont rvr that much I guess casters can still do some damage but against people that know the game they are completely gimps from hell as it is right now.

Im mostly talking abour runies now, I guess casters with pbaoe are better.

 

[sirexairman]

This whole Node stuff is not Nerfing stealthers far from it . Its going to force stealthers to Stop camping milegates it will force stealthers to partol area's around milegates Hence making them better forcing them to fight in the hills , the trees near mile gates were its harder for nodes to show stealthers , its making stealthers what there ameant to be Stalkers hiding in the shadows and the terrain of the land waiting for the wandering Soul to come to there death . Which is The right thing to do because no one like fighting a SB just at the door of say amg in odin and all of a sudden a hunter starts bowing the crap out of you then you die and he waits for the next soloer to pick on with his buddies.

I know i dont have a Stealther but at the same time i get majorally pissed off when 2 or 3 stealthers Gank me in 2 seconds just as i go threw a milegate.Hopefully this node will go ahead and stop the stealther Zergs

 

[Jaem]

Ever thought it might increase stealth groups as well?

well they may all gang up so theres enough to kill whom ever even if their seen.

Could go either way, more or less.

 

[Falcon]

Originally posted by Rulke-RM
Class statistics mean nothing.

nothing

Groups require certain classes, skalds for example. Now skalds are far from powerful classes, they are included for 1 reason only, speed. But because of this they are always guaranteed a spot in group their classes average RPs are much higher than arguably more powerful classes.

Secondly, its more about time played than class power, 2nd highest RP holder in mid/pryd is a thane fgs...

I'm not talking about individual character stats but stats as a whole. That one thane doing well out of the thousands of thanes world wide wont skew the thane stats at all, it'll be easy to see that thanes aren't performing well. Skalds may not be uber but they get in groups, make kills in groups and thus are fun to play, or they can solo. Not uber by any measure but still good enough to have fun with and that's what matters.

A ranger may even be a good class but if all it's doing is getting ganked by assassins and now anyone with a see hidden object or presence node it's useless as a class and needs some help to either a) get in groups, or b) solo better.

Take the whole zerker incident for example, whilst they were uber they were flooring the top RP earners for the last week, fortnight, month, this was obvious proof that they were overperforming, everyone wanted one, everyone could do rediculously well with one. Yes there are quirks in using stats but if a single class is consistently doing better than another class it's obvious that this class has far more worth in game to players than the other class, therefore the other class(es) need help to be brought upto par with the better performing class, OR the better performing class needs toning down to the level of the less performing class. Assassins are generally well performing but archers haven't for a very very long time been well performing, and it's easy to see this from stats of how many people play them, how many rps they're earning that there's a whole load of other classes, including mages, that outperform the archers.

 

[Indiana Jones]

Originally posted by sirexairman
This whole Node stuff is not Nerfing stealthers far from it . Its going to force stealthers to Stop camping milegates it will force stealthers to partol area's around milegates Hence making them better forcing them to fight in the hills , the trees near mile gates were its harder for nodes to show stealthers , its making stealthers what there ameant to be Stalkers hiding in the shadows and the terrain of the land waiting for the wandering Soul to come to there death . Which is The right thing to do because no one like fighting a SB just at the door of say amg in odin and all of a sudden a hunter starts bowing the crap out of you then you die and he waits for the next soloer to pick on with his buddies.

I know i dont have a Stealther but at the same time i get majorally pissed off when 2 or 3 stealthers Gank me in 2 seconds just as i go threw a milegate.Hopefully this node will go ahead and stop the stealther Zergs

ok i can understand that, and you make a good point. Stealthers that camp MG are never fun (although i do it myself sometimes). But in that case they should make the nodes only castable around known camp spots

Imagine if the node was used during keep defence. No stealther would be able to climb the walls anymore and kill guards as everyone would see them coming. It would make assassins completly useless in keep takes.

 

[Rulke-RM]

Lol, when i soloed my skald i was out-meleed by rangers more often than infiltrators. In an effort to steer this thread back on-topic:
You complain casters get groups more than stealthers. Well duh.
Casters are a group class, Stealthers are a solo class.
The problem is, casters arent wanted in (most) groups so they have neither the option to solo or the option to join a group. If they do manage to join a group, they will be the 1st target for the enemy, because they die soooo fast and have f*ck all armour.

Also, your caster to archer comparison made me laugh, I'm beginning to wonder if we play the same game. RF has interupted my QC numerous times, and RF does not suffer the same interupt problems that plague normal firing. BT is effectively nullified with the Piercing arrow skill. Melee resists are capped at 26% (with rare exceptions), magic resists have no cap, and cheap RAs are available to raise them. Archers have better armour, more HP and respecable melee, ON TOP of their ranged ability to do as much as/more damage than casters, and they have access to 3 damage types.

The sooner they move all stealthers to their own server the better imo, the 3 RvR zones aren't big enough for normal RvR and stealth zerging.

Just 1 final thought about PN, a lesser version has been in the game for a year or so now...
It detects when a stealther comes within 350 range and deals them up to 1000 damage, depending on resists.



And I can't remember the last time i saw it being used....

 

[Rulke-RM]

Originally posted by Indiana Jones
ok i can understand that, and you make a good point. Stealthers that camp MG are never fun (although i do it myself sometimes). But in that case they should make the nodes only castable around known camp spots

Imagine if the node was used during keep defence. No stealther would be able to climb the walls anymore and kill guards as everyone would see them coming. It would make assassins completly useless in keep takes.

And 1 wizard GTAoEing will kill the node.

But wait! that would require teamwork! :chortle:

 

[Indiana Jones]

yeah, but how many gtaoe (earth) wizzies does albion/pryd have

afaik not many

 

[asorek]

Originally posted by Falcon
If a class is in the top RP earners list it has to be a class that's played by a lot of people either in groups or solo. Gimped classes wont get groups and wont be able to solo thus get low rps. Uber classes either solo well or get lots of groups, therefore they show up high in the list. It's really not a difficult concept.

Funniest part about this post of yours is how you're saying mages are gimp and can't kill archers yet now make out cabalists to be uber saying that your bros could beat me archer, fair enough I'm glad you agree that a mage can kick the hell out of an archer. Keep digging your grave deeper, I'm more than happy to keep on helping you, just hope you decide to jump in it soon.

CABALISTS ARE A PET CLASS!!
let me say that again for you

THEYRE A PET CLASS!!!
a cabbie's pet will AUTO AGGRO ANYTHING THAT TOUCHED YOU!! the cabbe can run away knowing that his pet WILL reach the archer stealthed or not and engage him..giving him time to come back and finish him off... what does a wizard have? nothing..great so i cast QC root..and if im lucky then what? with resists my Root which delves for maybe 1m 53 secs can last upto a staggering 14secs..yey me.i got lucky i can run away..wow thats a fun class to play..i can root and run away for teh win!! quick everyone roll a wizard theyre soo much fun...!!! this node is THE best thing to happen to non-pet class casters..and i welcome it with open arms....

 

[asorek]

Originally posted by Indiana Jones
yeah, but how many gtaoe (earth) wizzies does albion/pryd have

afaik not many

but thats not the point...the spec line is there to remove the threat if people choose to take it... but they wont..they dont want to sacrifice theyre fun to be functional... they expect someone else to do it for them.
I wouldnt personally spec an Earth Wiz unless i was dead set on being keep take and defend only..and tbh thats boring...it doesnt happen enough for me to actually want to spec like that.. but people whine saying its not fair...wajn..wajn...wajn... but the truth is..THERE ARE ways to counter-act it..but they CHOOSE not to use them rather still..whine about it..maybe mythic will have a change if they whine enough...it dont work like that tho sadly =(

 

[beck-uk]

Some good info on PN here...

VN boards thread

Some interesting points...

1) When you enter the area of effect and you are stealthed you can hear a noise and get an 'exposed' icon on your screen. This starts to flash as you are leaving the area of effect.

2) The caster that places a PN will be aggrod by any mobs/enemy guards in the area of effect and will be considered in combat.

So if you put one of these down whilst attacking a keep then you will be getting the guards targetting you as they pop plus you will be 'in combat' for the duration.

Also this will make placing these in DF quite difficult.

3) An 'exposed' stealther cannot be casted on directly. So the only way to pop the stealther out of stealth is to engage in melee or pbaoe/gtaoe.

[edit] some more info...

Pets can no longer be told to attack an 'exposed' player unless they are unstealthed of course. Archers cannot fire on them also.

Some reports say that instant abilities can be used on 'exposed' players.

Once you unstealth (by choice or not) whilst in the area of effect you cannot re-stealth until you are out of the aoe.

The range has beed reduced to 1000 units (as opposed to 1500) and they now only last 10 minutes (instead of 15).

-------------------------------------------------

I expect this will be nerfed even more when more ppl in the US get the ability and they become more widely used.

 

[Indiana Jones]

ok, its starting to get better

but one thing i still don't like is the fact that when caster casts PN, all the members of same realm can see the stealthers

if there is a skald/bard/minstrell or any other kind of speed, tanks just have to run the target and hit it

 

[Ardrias_Mid]

Well the long casting time should be enough for you to move away.

 

[Falcon]

You complain casters get groups more than stealthers. Well duh.
Casters are a group class, Stealthers are a solo class.

Um isn't this what this thread is mostly about? The fact that stealthers ARENT a solo class anymore other than any other class in game because Mythic's denied them that?

The problem is, casters arent wanted in (most) groups so they have neither the option to solo or the option to join a group. If they do manage to join a group, they will be the 1st target for the enemy, because they die soooo fast and have f*ck all armour.

Why on earth do you think Rangers/NS don't get groups? It couldn't be because they suffer the EXACT same problems could it? Surely not!

The sooner they move all stealthers to their own server the better imo, the 3 RvR zones aren't big enough for normal RvR and stealth zerging.

...and then it became clear. Just another mage who wasn't paying attention and got owned too many times by a stealther. Stay alert and stealthers are nothing to worry about, grouped or ungrouped.

RF has interupted my QC numerous times, and RF does not suffer the same interupt problems that plague normal firing.

RF will only interrupt QC if you don't actually QC, if you hit QC whilst casting it doesn't QC, gives a message something like you must wait to finish casting your current spell. QC is a guaranteed cast vs archer arrows, I've never ever once had it fail.

BT is effectively nullified with the Piercing arrow skill

Only PBT, penetrating arrow does NOT work vs. self bladeturn, for Rangers that's a null issue, the last time I saw PBT on a Mid/Alb was around 12months ago. For scouts and hunters it's a bonus vs. Hibs as Wardens are much more widespread. The only way to peirce bladeturn is with Volley and Longshot, RAs which very, very few rangers and hunters can afford and scouts can only afford at higher RRs.

Originally posted by asorek
CABALISTS ARE A PET CLASS!!
let me say that again for you

THEYRE A PET CLASS!!!
a cabbie's pet will AUTO AGGRO ANYTHING THAT TOUCHED YOU!! the cabbe can run away knowing that his pet WILL reach the archer stealthed or not and engage him..giving him time to come back and finish him off... what does a wizard have? nothing..great so i cast QC root..and if im lucky then what? with resists my Root which delves for maybe 1m 53 secs can last upto a staggering 14secs..yey me.i got lucky i can run away..wow thats a fun class to play..i can root and run away for teh win!! quick everyone roll a wizard theyre soo much fun...!!! this node is THE best thing to happen to non-pet class casters..and i welcome it with open arms....

So what you're basically saying isn't that mages are underpowered, it's that DD casters have issues that need resolving to make them as good as other mages who have pets, such as Enchanters, Sorcs, Mentalists, SMs and to a lesser extent, Theurgists? If that's the case why have you been generalising all this time that mages are gimped when you actually only ment a few casters, i.e. Wizards, Eldritches, Runemasters - two of which have nearsight which is as useful as a pet vs archers. In fact, basically what you've really wanted to say all along is that Wizards are underpowered and need love isn't it? In that case, yes I'll agree with you, but as you can see, nearly all mages have at least one very powerful anti-archer tool.

Anyhow, looks like Mythic's agreed with us, PN's already been nerfed. Hopefully they'll agree so more and slap it down even further.

 

[Indiana Jones]

its hard to make a judgement when you haven't tried it...

but imagine the assassin at a MG. Then, a fg of enemies zergs through and stops close to you, and caster starts summoning PN.

Maybe i should time it, but i don't think the stealther can run far enough in 15 sec.

But if the PN gets adjusted some more, it might be not so bad after all.
For example: no PN inside a keep, or else it will make wall climb obsolete

 

[vintervargen]

assasins need to be someones prey + casters need lub = node

xD

 

[Rulke-RM]

Um isn't this what this thread is mostly about? The fact that stealthers ARENT a solo class anymore other than any other class in game because Mythic's denied them that?

Lol wtf? I stopped reading here because i'm beginning to think you're taking the piss

 

[Arkian]

Changes in 1.66H

 

[old.ivan]

Originally posted by Falcon
Um isn't this what this thread is mostly about? The fact that stealthers ARENT a solo class anymore other than any other class in game because Mythic's denied them that?

Solo class ? lol , these days you have to be in a pack to survive for more than a trip from the xpk to an xmg. Im 99% solo and always bloody unbuffed, call me a bad player but i get totally pwned by enemy outnumbering me.

I would love to see that ML ability nerfed to group only + 500 Diameter <not radius> , not more. That will make mg camping impossible but wont cover all front climb spots < mostly used in defense >.

Just my 2 rubles...

 

[Shike]

Originally posted by Indiana Jones
its hard to make a judgement when you haven't tried it...

but imagine the assassin at a MG. Then, a fg of enemies zergs through and stops close to you, and caster starts summoning PN.

Maybe i should time it, but i don't think the stealther can run far enough in 15 sec.

But if the PN gets adjusted some more, it might be not so bad after all.
For example: no PN inside a keep, or else it will make wall climb obsolete

hmm... dont you get pretty far in 15s?

 

[Indiana Jones]

well, in 15 sec in can run exactly from edge of portal in CS to the wall

http://users.pandora.be/Shenron/Daoc/15sec.jpg

no clue how far that is btw in m

 

[asorek]

which as ive said all along for a caster isnt far enough from an archer class.....

Giving casters early warnings isnt as overpowered as youd think.. i mean if i could actually bolt them while stealthed..then yes id feel bad..but what kind of a moron caster is actually going to go upto a stealther and staff them??!?
As for other classes...well now you see why they only gave the ability to casters....but as for the whold realm seeing it? thats bad i think...not realy fair...it gives casters an edge..but shuldnt be shared to others for nothing!!

 

[Falcon]

Originally posted by Rulke-RM
Lol wtf? I stopped reading here because i'm beginning to think you're taking the piss

^ Guess who hasn't tried a stealther in 1.66

 

[ssera]

well, playing both an sb and a rm I can see why people argue for and against.

As an SB I think this ability is slightly too powerful because the whole realm can see them. If it were only the caster who could see the stealthers then I wouldn't have any problems with it at all. As it stands, a caster will obviously not go up to hit a stealther with their stick, but all/most of the other classes will beeline straight for them. Also, as it stands, keep attacks for stealthers will be much harder but not impossible.

As an RM this ability will be especially useful when approaching an mg, though again, you'll have to get close enough to the mg to be able to cast it effectively, and to be that close you'll no doubt be jumped by any assasins that might be there. In keep defense it will make you last slightly longer, but there's so many other things that can kill you that it may not make such a difference.

Personally, I think that if they removed mg's altogether then it would make most people happy. People whine about assassins in general because of the stealth zergs that camp the mg's. Get rid of them and you help solve that problem. Casters still need some love though. In a fg vs fg fight I'm pretty much always the first one to get killed, though purge has helped increase my life expectancy somewhat. I don't do very much damage but I'm specced 47 RC, so am more of a keep attack/defense RM, and with nice buffs you can really get those DD's chaining. Bolts are very effective against casters classes, especially with buffs when you get the the second bolt flying before the first one hits Resists still need to be looked at in general, maybe cap them at 26% - but that's not the point of this thread so I'll stop there

 

[Ardrias_Mid]

With no milegates, it'd be hard to defend relics

 

[bigchief]

Originally posted by ssera
People whine about assassins in general because of the stealth zergs that camp the mg's. Get rid of them and you help solve that problem.

This will make them worse imo when you get stealth zergs with a caster in the tower just casting a node every 15? mins. Got the usual stealth grp on the gate, the other realms come through stealthed only the camping side can see them all and pick targets/line up PA instantly.

Gonna be fun ~~

 

[Damon_D]

hehe once again I'm glad that we are a few patches behind the US..nahh not because then they can fix most bug's before we get the patch..but because wow or dragon empire or something ell's will prob be released or danm close to release when we get TOA aka Takes the piss On All...........

 

[Vim]

Some people seem to forget that originally in retail Assassins were meant only to attack Support/Casters... Now assassins can/have been able to take on pure tanks.. And you whine about nerfs. This has nothing to do with the Node, just a reminder.

And Node is getting a nerf already.