Question State Terrorism?

[Scouse]

This is all assuming that it's right for Israel to stop aid going into Gaza.

I agree with this.

If we want to put this into context, this is the context that it needs to be preliminarily viewed from.

And Wij - I don't think it's a separate argument at all. I think it's the argument. If we want to achieve a balanced view of any of this then context is absolutely vital.

there should not have been any press or activists on the boats

This is naive IMHO. Of course there should be press on board - and how can you stop an "activist" from hiding his true intentions?


BTW Wij. Apparently the boat was stopped a long way out from the legal quarantine zone...

 

[Ctuchik]

Both sides are at fault if it was human aid only, there should not have been any press or activists on the boats.

and why not?

if there weren't then all this would probably have been rather uninteresting news.

if they boarded the ships without any of the activists and witnesses and god knows what, and still ended up shooting a few then it wouldn't have been half as interesting.

doing what they did they actually got some response from ALOT more countries then they would otherwise have gotten.

Israel is still not officially occupying the Gaza.

they just prevent the country from rebuilding, hoping that the populace will turn against their democratically elected government.

the blockade is a collective punishment of the ppl trying to live there and nothing else.

and to the ppl saying there isn't enough info available. no ofc not, Israel is trying to save face here. that's why they aren't allowing any journalists inside the harbour to report. so Israel can say and do pretty much whatever the hell they want. and whenever someone does stuff like that you can bet they will be lying as much as they possibly can.

 

[xane]

All Israel want is for Gaza to remain a bombed barren waste land because it suits them

Is that the bombed barren wasteland with or without the five star night club and Olympic swimming pool ?

 

[ECA]

A gold cage is still a cage.

 

[rynnor]

Is that the bombed barren wasteland with or without the five star night club and Olympic swimming pool ?

OooO - nice extremist view there - im sure that totally transforms the reality on the ground

You sound about as convincing as the other Israeli apologists tbh.

 

[Scouse]

Is that the bombed barren wasteland with or without the five star night club and Olympic swimming pool ?

You're trolling here xane.

Do you honestly think there should be nothing in the 150sq miles that make up the gaza strip but dead palestinian bodies before we have to acknowledge that they're proper fucked?

The fact that they're in the shit isn't even up for debate. A picture of a swimming pool isn't going to convince anyone but a retard otherwise...

 

[Tom]

The pertinent question is, does Hamas have its own interests at heart, or the interests of the public it supposedly serves?

 

[Scouse]

The pertinent question is, does Hamas have its own interests at heart, or the interests of the public it supposedly serves?

No idea. But the public voted for them and fight for them.

Do you think *insert any political party here* has it's own interests at heart, or do you think that any democratically elected political party probably thinks it knows what's best for it's public?

 

[Tom]

Clearly when examining the death toll Hamas isn't doing everything it could to defend the people it was elected to serve.

 

[Scouse]

I'm not sure what Hamas can do against airstrikes and full scale invasions.

I'm not sure Hamas even has a strong enough hold over its population to completely halt any "rocket" fire into Israel. If someone had murdered my entire family and I had a rocket in the garage, it's not outside the bounds of reason to think I may take such an action upon myself.

 

[Ch3tan]

Missle attacks are down under Hamas, so that is something. Given the amount of militant groups, there is never likely to be peace though.

 

[rynnor]

It seems to me that Israelis objective is always to keep things simmering so that peace is impossible.

If there was a peace it would have to start really negotiating and giving proper concessions which is something it would rather avoid.

The strife also takes the worlds eye off the illegal settlements.

 

[xane]

You're trolling here xane.

Trolling ?

Like declaring Gaza a "waste land" when it so clearly isn't ?

Like stating Israel prevents humanitarian aid when it doesn't (although Hamas does)

Like claiming Israel ignores UN Resolutions when the Hamas Charter calling for the complete destruction of Israel is directly opposed to Resolution 1850 ?

Trolling is not reporting the truth.

 

[ECA]

Yes clearly Gaza is a lovely place to live and be unable to leave.

I would like to visit on holiday and enjoy the battle re-enactment scene there.
Oh people actually get shot?

Clearly the people below are just having a nice lie down for a nap the lazy bastards.

 

[xane]

You realise that is a picture of dead Hamas Policemen, hardly the nicest guys in the world, ironically the ones who really do steal humanitarian aid ?

 

[ECA]

Libelling the dead, classy.

 

[xane]

Libelling the dead, classy.

Libel is when you say something untrue, try refuting my facts instead of resorting to ad hominem.

P.S. Those nasty Israelis are now sending the aid into Gaza, to the brutally oppressed people and their hunger for electric scooters.

 

[Chilly]

Honestly, who gives a shit?

 

[Scouse]

Hey! Some people are arseholes! That must mean they all are!!!1111elevenone!111

The fact is, they'd get all the aid they needed if Israel hadn't decided to Berlin-wall the whole place up and decide what gets in and what gets out in the first place - despite pleas from the UN to end the illegal blockade.


And yep. They're sending the aid to gaza. The whole world would play merry hell if they hadn't. Why don't the fuckers send all the aid to gaza, for example cancer drugs and bags for blood so the hospitals don't have to use washed out water bottles as containers for blood transplants eh? The WHO is not amused, and neither are the people who can't get medical treatment because Israel has warehouses full of medical equipment they won't let through...

 

[Zenith.UK]

If you look at the rap sheet for Mossad activities in the last 40-50 years, you'll see a repeated pattern of disproportionate response and pre-emptive action.

The problem with Israel's public image is that it is seen as doing what it likes and to hell with what most other countries think. Jews were oppressed in WW2 and look to what is now Israel as their home. Israel have since become oppressors themselves, walling off sections of the country and making life difficult for those on the other side of the walls.

I don't consider myself anti-Israel or pro-Palestine, but it doesn't take a genius to see that Israel is setting itself up as a target for the next nuclear device used in anger. If they push the Arab countries too far, they'll all just do the Six Day War all over again. One nuke on Jerusalem and no-one wins.

 

[ECA]

Libel is when you say something untrue, try refuting my facts instead of resorting to ad hominem.

P.S. Those nasty Israelis are now sending the aid into Gaza, to the brutally oppressed people and their hunger for electric scooters.

What you're saying is equivalent to "The American Police beat Rodney King, QED all american police hate black people and beat them whenever they get a chance" - and then saying prove me wrong.

 

[rynnor]

The big picture is that Gaza is a place people live - they arent in a prison yet they are treated worse than the occupants of a UK jail.

Theres no legitimacy for Israels continued oppression of a civilian population - collective punishment is illegal under international law.

If the UN wasnt a sham to legitimise US actions they would have intervened long ago.

 

[xane]

The fact is, they'd get all the aid they needed if Israel hadn't decided to Berlin-wall the whole place up and decide what gets in and what gets out in the first place

How far do you want to take this "first place" idea back ? How about Hamas stopping rocket attacks, how about they accept the two state solution, how about Arab nations recognizing Israel ? Perhaps if the Arabs hadn't invaded back in the 7th century all this wouldn't have happened.

The so called "facts" appearing on here are either completely untrue, or negate both sides of the argument, specifically designed to demonise one country.

I am not an apologist for Israel, I've not stated Israel is justified in its actions, but there are facts that need to be aired, its the only way a perspective can be reached, before informed opinions can be made.

For example, we again bring up the subject of "the wall", yet Egypt also built a wall for the same reasons as Israel, so has Iran (against Kurds), and it has stopped terrorist attacks.

If you're so blind you can't see beyond your own prejudice, then go ahead insult me and label me a dissenter, but at least I'm an informed dissenter, not subject to the rampant jingoism prevalent on this thread, go find facts and the truth.

 

[rynnor]

If you're so blind you can't see beyond your own prejudice, then go ahead insult me and label me a dissenter, but at least I'm an informed dissenter, not subject to the rampant jingoism prevalent on this thread, go find facts and the truth.

Jingoism is extreme nationalism - its more like the Israeli approach than that of those who opposed you in this thread.

I find myself opposing Israel out of a love of justice rather than any pre-conceived prejudice as I have no link to either side.

 

[Scouse]

Angry waffle, with an accusation of "prejudice" thrown in...

I used to be a staunch supporter of Israel. There's definately no "prejudice" from me towards the people. I'm guessing you wanted to throw "anti-semite" in your rant somewhere but pulled yourself back.

The "facts" are that a state is acting like a fucking big bully and is increasingly doing so.

I don't give two hoots who makes up the members of any state, what they believe or what colour they are, I just care about the decisions that that particular state makes.

Israel is regressing and, considering the past of many who now live there, are committing terrible atrocities on an effectively helpless population.

What Hamas is even capable of doing pales in comparison to the actions that Israel repeatedly take...

 

[Embattle]

Libel is when you say something untrue, try refuting my facts instead of resorting to ad hominem.

P.S. Those nasty Israelis are now sending the aid into Gaza, to the brutally oppressed people and their hunger for electric scooters.

You tend to be as bad as some of the rest in terms of believing what you read, besides the fact is the UN has long said that only a 1/4 of the aid needed is actually getting in either way.

The fact is both sides aren't snow white although in this case I still think Israel has been very stupid and will probably have to pay for it eventually.

 

[Wij]

I agree with this.

If we want to put this into context, this is the context that it needs to be preliminarily viewed from.

And Wij - I don't think it's a separate argument at all. I think it's the argument. If we want to achieve a balanced view of any of this then context is absolutely vital.

No, it IS a seperate argument. The blockade was a known fact to all parties. Noone is going to negotiate the rights and wrongs of a blockade on the seas. The protestors weren't that naive.

What's to investigate? We know what happened to the Gaza flotilla. - By Shmuel Rosner - Slate Magazine

BTW Wij. Apparently the boat was stopped a long way out from the legal quarantine zone...

Doesn't matter. It was heading towards the zone and stated that its destination was the blockaded port and ignored warnings to stop. Therefore it is perfectly legal to attempt to stop it by force (subject to proportionality of course)

 

[dysfunction]

Is that the bombed barren wasteland with or without the five star night club and Olympic swimming pool ?

That wouldnt be the part that needs the rebuilding now is it??

Have you seen the pictures of the Israel side of the great wall as opposed to the Gaza side of the wall? The lovely brand new shopping malls and houses being built by Isreal on non Israeli soil while on the other side it is a barren waste land with no hope of rebuilding because Israel won't allow any cement in!

I'm amazed you can't see this...are you blind or just blinkerd??

 

[Scouse]

No, it IS a seperate argument.

I disagree. It's politically convenient to separate the argument - especially for Israel's supporters - the US, the UK, France (basically the 'West' + Egypt) - but it's a bullshit argument.

It's like saying it's not right to enter a persons house without permission. But if that person is Joseph Fritzel then you bet your ass that it's right.

Framing the argument doesn't make it clearer - it distorts it.

Reading that article it becomes very clear very quickly where its loyalties lie:

As long as blockade is the policy, no bunch of kooky protesters can be given the right to enter

History is replete with examples of people "breaking the law" in a just cause - and make no mistake: delivering aid to gaza is a just cause.

People shouldn't pander to Israel's disgraceful blockade. The correct course of action, IMHO, is now to send boat after boat to Gaza. Israel needs to fold on this. It's actions are wrong. Period.

 

[Wij]

I disagree. It's politically convenient to separate the argument - especially for Israel's supporters - the US, the UK, France (basically the 'West' + Egypt) - but it's a bullshit argument.

That entirely depends what question you are attempting to address. If its "was Isreal within its rights to board the ship with its military" then the wider context is irrelevant.

If you wish to broaden the argument into the rights and wrongs of the blockade, which I'm not talking about at all at the minute, then that's fine but make it clear that that's what you're doing and that it's now irrelevant to say "OMGZ they baorded a ship in intanashunal waterz !!"