Sorry Hibs looks like you're no longer officially the underdog realm :-)

[Boggy]

Why exactly do you need to keep the battlements clear of defenders? You can treb the wall from beyond the defender's range. The only real need for attacking defenders is when on the inner keep. And on the inner keep (of a high level keep) there are 3 levels of battlements to spread over, adding a third dimension to the ability to spread out to avoid bombs, again meaning there is plenty of space. (each fg takes 1 level of a tower on the battlements for example)

I'm obviously missing something or you are. You've said that we have a 3000 diameter area in which to spread out. Isn't a large portion of that directly in front of the battlements? As I said earlier, that being the case th attackers have 2 choices: stand near enough to be shot, or move away. If they move out of range they no longer have a 3000 diameter area to spread out in. Am I wrong?

As for the defenders charging the attackers with their entire zerg.. this is not something that can happen in the space of a few seconds, there should be plenty of time for NS/Rangers to spot and warn of impending charges.. it is however possible that a large zerg that was amassed elsewhere would charge and attack you. In this case, yes, the side that they initially charge at would likely suffer high casualties, however when the rest of the zerg moves to defend it instantly puts the attacking zerg at a disadvantage due to the fact they are already engaged in combat with certain targets..

This is the exact opposite of my experience. We're talking about a siege in which you are recommending people spread into all available space. That means for the defenders to charge all they have to do is leave the gate or postern and start fighting. This takes almost no time.

Any fight in which large numbers of your people are killed quickly does NOT give you an advantage. Saying people are "already engaged in combat" is not representative of the real situation. With a larger force attacking smaller numbers (or attacking a portion of a very diffused force) the larger force will easily kill people and move onto new targets.

Have you ever faced 2fg of albs? And have you ever faced 1fg of albs followed by another fg shortly after (a few seconds later)? The 2nd scenario is *much* harder to survive, even if it is the same 2fg of players both times. It doesn't matter if you've killed 1/2 the first grp before the 2nd grp adds in the second scenario, it is still much harder to win.

The key difference between this and what we're dicussing is initiative. If both forces are taking the initiative, or the 2 group force is, then yes it can help to do a one-two punch. But if you're on the back foot, it isn't a one-two punch, it's a delayed reaction and very reactive.

Being able to instantly identify all enemy targets and take action accordingly is a lot easier than constantly identifying new targets and modifying your actions based on each new appearance.

You can't instantly identify attackers, because zergs do not run on teamspeak (or rarely anyway). When attacked, there are small but significant delays in reacting. If the thing you're reacting to is out of clip range for many people, the delays are larger.

Also if you attack a bunched up zerg you will be facing all your enemies in front of you, when they add later it will be an attack on 3 fronts (2 sides also). The closer together the groups of your zerg are, the more susceptable to ae CC they are which (bombs aside) is what kills zergs.

I'm not recommending that Hibs bunch up, I am telling you we cannot spread enough to make a reaver bomb ineffective without making ourselves ineffective.

Again I will ask you, how any zergs have you killed? And which were easier/tougher to kill and why?

I can honestly say, that when I have been part of killing a zerg outside a keep (which has been rare given the lack of zerg killing tools in Hib) through charging (rather than them running onto the keep), our success has always depended on surprise and a cohesive charge, not on the spacing of the enemy.

My belief that spreading out to the extent I have said will benefit zergs comes from my experiences in fighting against many zergs (and wining on occassion, losing badly other times) both as a hib and as an alb. I have observed what made us win or lose, and a major role is how spread out the enemies were when we charge. If they are close enough that we can CC most with only a handful of mezzes we stand a good chance of winning even if they heavily outnumber us. If they are far apart enough that it's impossible to CC them all before their tanks have engaged us, then we're pretty screwed even if we might outnumber them...

It's my belief that your theories are based on a relatively small GG attacking a large, bunched force by surprise when they are already facing a large force somewhere else.

I mean no offense, since your tactics obviously work, but I don't ever recall you charging as part of the main force we are fighting.

Therefore your comments, while explaining to us how we could avoid being killed when you charge us with a reaver bomb, ignore the issues we're facing while fighting the main force that's actually facing us. You need to take all factors into account. It's pointless describing ways we could avoid getting wiped by a reaver bomb if those methods cannot be realistically put into practice without making us vulnerable in other ways.

Something for you to think about. Albs, being more numerous and made up of many inexperienced RvRers, bunch as much, if not more, than Hibs when attacking a keep with trebs. Why is it the Alb force does not get destroyed?

The answer is that Hib does not have reaver bombs. When you set up your trebs on a bridge tower and necessarily bunch up, we are spread MORE than you, and yet we are still the ones who get taken out by the zerg killing bomb. Clearly then, it is not true that the side who spreads out most wins. It is more true that the side with the bomb wins.

 

[willowywicca]

I'm obviously missing something or you are. You've said that we have a 3000 diameter area in which to spread out. Isn't a large portion of that directly in front of the battlements? As I said earlier, that being the case th attackers have 2 choices: stand near enough to be shot, or move away. If they move out of range they no longer have a 3000 diameter area to spread out in. Am I wrong?

Well, the placing of the trebs is at 3000~, that can be the front edge of the circle tho, there's no reason people need to be nearer (aside from a want of rps, which can for many = fun , but ignoring that, since it's more fun to not die to a bomb or zerg and take the keep ^^ )

This is the exact opposite of my experience. We're talking about a siege in which you are recommending people spread into all available space. That means for the defenders to charge all they have to do is leave the gate or postern and start fighting. This takes almost no time.

Any fight in which large numbers of your people are killed quickly does NOT give you an advantage. Saying people are "already engaged in combat" is not representative of the real situation. With a larger force attacking smaller numbers (or attacking a portion of a very diffused force) the larger force will easily kill people and move onto new targets.

Yes, if a large portion of your zerg is killed, you will be in trouble of course.. but the fact that you're spread out means only a small amount will since only they will have been initially engaged. And also you need to bear in mind that there's a maximum killing speed, after which adding more people does not increase the speed you kill at (eg 5 people target an enemy and cast, he dies in 2 secs when the all have finished casting. 50 people target an enemy and cast, he still dies in 2 seconds when they finished casting tho a large amount of them finish their attack on an already dead enemy).

The key difference between this and what we're dicussing is initiative. If both forces are taking the initiative, or the 2 group force is, then yes it can help to do a one-two punch. But if you're on the back foot, it isn't a one-two punch, it's a delayed reaction and very reactive.



You can't instantly identify attackers, because zergs do not run on teamspeak (or rarely anyway). When attacked, there are small but significant delays in reacting. If the thing you're reacting to is out of clip range for many people, the delays are larger.

I was talking from the perspective of the people attacking a zerg. There is a slight delay when attacked yes, but that is more due to player performance and experience than anything else.. initially there may be delay problems, but if it becomes standard to spread hibs (or mids) will get used to responding and warning of INCs in bg with good reaction time (assuming they're not afk, which often part of a zerg is).

As for the initiative bit, well, I can see what you're saying but if people stay alert and watch /BG it isn't that way imo (atleast I find I react quite fast when alb zergs I'm in get attacked, usually in time to arrive and kill the casters who are preoccupied with the albs they initially charged and without getting CCed myself since the CCers are busy with the initial albs they charged). Of course some people won't respond as quickly, but that again is just practice.. the more you are in a situation where you need to react, the faster you will start reacting.

I'm not recommending that Hibs bunch up, I am telling you we cannot spread enough to make a reaver bomb ineffective without making ourselves ineffective.

I can honestly say, that when I have been part of killing a zerg outside a keep (which has been rare given the lack of zerg killing tools in Hib) through charging (rather than them running onto the keep), our success has always depended on surprise and a cohesive charge, not on the spacing of the enemy.

Hmm, everytime I've seen hibs wiping albs it's been spearheaded by a guild grp (ec alliance usually) charging in with twf and the rest of hibs following through. And yes, that works because albs are too bunched up also. (and also cos twf is hard to see where it was placed since it's only that tiny circle, I have actually walked into twf a few times cos of that >< fixed in 1.71 afaik tho \o/ )

It's my belief that your theories are based on a relatively small GG attacking a large, bunched force by surprise when they are already facing a large force somewhere else.

I mean no offense, since your tactics obviously work, but I don't ever recall you charging as part of the main force we are fighting.

No offence taken, I quite enjoy discussing various things with you even tho we never agree at all

Anyways, I have very often charged with the main zerg, it's just that as part of a zerg, a cabalist with single target nukes isn't particularily noticable But yes, I have more experience on attacking zergs with 1 or 2fg of opted groups (tho not with reaver bombs generally, I've been in one reaver bomb group ever, and altho we have derric's reaver in PE, on his own he really doesn't kill much usually seems to get at most 3-4 kills when he bombs solo (note: at most, sometimes kills nothing)), so it is probably fair to say my opinion is colored by that.

Therefore your comments, while explaining to us how we could avoid being killed when you charge us with a reaver bomb, ignore the issues we're facing while fighting the main force that's actually facing us. You need to take all factors into account. It's pointless describing ways we could avoid getting wiped by a reaver bomb if those methods cannot be realistically put into practice without making us vulnerable in other ways.

Something for you to think about. Albs, being more numerous and made up of many inexperienced RvRers, bunch as much, if not more, than Hibs when attacking a keep with trebs. Why is it the Alb force does not get destroyed?

Hmm, well, if there's more albs, that's probably the reason they win If there's more hibs, the reason they (might) lose is reaver bombs.. if you defend against reaver bombs when you outnumber defenders you'll win? x<

If you spread out your superior numbers against the smaller defending force, even if they charge and kill some, you will still have equal or greater numbers and have an initiative advantage, meaning you'll win (in theory, on average etc etc.. )

If it's roughly equal numbers I still think you'll be fine for reasons I gave before.. if they outnumber you yes you're probably in trouble, but being grouped up wouldn't change much then either

The answer is that Hib does not have reaver bombs. When you set up your trebs on a bridge tower and necessarily bunch up, we are spread MORE than you, and yet we are still the ones who get taken out by the zerg killing bomb. Clearly then, it is not true that the side who spreads out most wins. It is more true that the side with the bomb wins.

I have never stated that the side who spreads more will win. I have merely stated that my opinion is that spreading out more gives protection from bomb and gg attacks, without reducing your defence to the general zerg.. of course if the general zerg greatly outnumbers you you will probably lose either way...

 

[Ovi1]

did u yguys ever tried a warden twf bomber grp?
ofc not

Do Wardens get an Uber damaging rr5 ability?

Do Wardens get Banelord as a ML path?

ofc not.

I don't doubt 3 Warden's stacking twf 3 could be quite menacing, pity the group is completely shafted the next 15 mins waiting for twf to come back.

As you miss time and again, Reavers are the ONLY class with ALL of the required abilities for the REAVER bomb. Mids and Hibs can create a TWF Bomb, but don't mistake it for the complete article, it is far from it!!

The biggest damage the reaver bomb can't be calculated in pure numbers, it is simply the completely demoralising effect it has. Seeing a zerg wiped by inferior numbers is nothing new, to any realm, but seeing a zerg wiped by the actions of ONE charcter can be very demoralising.

 

[Boggy]

Well, the placing of the trebs is at 3000~, that can be the front edge of the circle tho, there's no reason people need to be nearer (aside from a want of rps, which can for many = fun , but ignoring that, since it's more fun to not die to a bomb or zerg and take the keep ^^ )

The reason I mentioned this is that the point I joined the discussion was you getting quite mathematical about the area the Hibs have to spread in. The point I was trying to make is that the figures do not match reality. If a portion of your available area is in fact not available in which to stand then we don't have the 18000 units you originally mentioned.

This is exemplifies my broader point, too. The theory of how to combat a reaver bomb does not bear out in reality. In the reality of a keep siege there are all kinds of focal points and choke points (fops, gates, siege machinery, etc) that for one reason or another, people need to be near. All the reaver group has to do is aim for a slightly more densely populated area and BOOM, a big chunk of defenders goes down, making the rest of the force easy pickings.

I have never stated that the side who spreads more will win. I have merely stated that my opinion is that spreading out more gives protection from bomb and gg attacks, without reducing your defence to the general zerg.. of course if the general zerg greatly outnumbers you you will probably lose either way...

I'd say we agree in principle, but we're disagreeing on degree. I'd say the degree to which spreading out can blunt the impact of a reaver bomb is not enough to save the Hibs most time. The reaver is intelligent and mobile, meaning he can place himself where he does most damage and it's not just his damage either. When people see a reaver heading for them they run away, making it even harder to respond to the rest of the Alb forces.


I personally do not think there is any way of getting around the fact that in its current incarnation (and unfortunately even after its nerf I would think) the reaver bomb is a devastating weapon. The number of fights won with this tactic and the number of people forming reaver bomb groups supports my position, I think.

No offence taken, I quite enjoy discussing various things with you even tho we never agree at all

Well I have to say it is very nice to have a discussion with someone who can disagree without becoming angry or offensive. Neither of us will ever be proved right because the game is not subject to such proofs, but it is pleasant to discuss things amicably

If you weren't an Alb and irredeemibly evil perhaps we could be friends!

 

[Dumle]

Can't you once reply to what I wrote and not what you imagine I wrote ?.

Well you have 2 times now denied the fact that albgrps could have friars in them saying its not so easy, but the statement is not only to you as was not the whole friarthing to begin with as albs have as long as I read these boards said that it is not possible to make a setup with friar in it.

<sigh>. 140 delve lifetap on 50% body resists = crap damage, it's not a choice, it's what was fucking happening. Or maybe now you're going to tell me it was my choice to fight hibs with 50% body resists ?

Ok you should make up your mind good sir, first you say you only nuke for 180:ish damage then you say you COULD nuke harder, so as a "joke" I asked you why you would choose to nuke for only 180 when you COULD nuke harder as you said you could.

Animists yes, Valewalkers are melee hybrids, so not really no. Of course changing one means changing the other one, gotta love Mythic.

Yep, quite a predicament aint it,

 

[Bhalage]

Do Wardens get an Uber damaging rr5 ability?

Do Wardens get Banelord as a ML path?

ofc not.

I don't doubt 3 Warden's stacking twf 3 could be quite menacing, pity the group is completely shafted the next 15 mins waiting for twf to come back.

As you miss time and again, Reavers are the ONLY class with ALL of the required abilities for the REAVER bomb. Mids and Hibs can create a TWF Bomb, but don't mistake it for the complete article, it is far from it!!

The biggest damage the reaver bomb can't be calculated in pure numbers, it is simply the completely demoralising effect it has. Seeing a zerg wiped by inferior numbers is nothing new, to any realm, but seeing a zerg wiped by the actions of ONE charcter can be very demoralising.

when your zerg is killed by 1 player rthat is not demoralising but sad

get a grip qc stun and DD him to oblivotion and stop cryign ffs

+

3wardens stacking TWF is as lethal as a reaver bomb, the problem is you never tried it/use it. would wipe the noobalbzerg in 1sec...

 

[Ovi1]

when your zerg is killed by 1 player rthat is not demoralising but sad

get a grip qc stun and DD him to oblivotion and stop cryign ffs

+

3wardens stacking TWF is as lethal as a reaver bomb, the problem is you never tried it/use it. would wipe the noobalbzerg in 1sec...

It takes 3 Warden's to do what ONE reaver can do? Yep that's fair

Albs quite often point out how few Reavers with the required abilities to perform the Bomb, wonder how many Warden's with twf 3

Don't forget we need 3 times as many to do the job. Maybe we should petition Mythic to let us have 10 man groups, and leave albs at 8... afterall we need 3 to do the job of one reaver

Oh wait sorry, I forgot we can build a nice group wth 3 Warden's that can wtfpwn for the other 14 out of 15 mins

Bhalage, many times I have seen you make well reasoned posts, but as far as reaver Bombs are concerned you just spout the same rubbish time and again, completely ignoring the fact that it is impossible for Hibs to perform anything close to the Reaver Bomb (It isn't called the reaver Bomb for nothing ...).

As for the zerg being killed by one player being sad, you are correct it is very sad. I really can't understand how Mythic allowed such a sadly over-powered combination into the game. I know there are ways around it in a lot of situations, but all too often the reaver isn't spotted by the right class at the right time to stop it, especially where it does the most damage ... in Lord room situations.

As for your suggestion of stun then DD, I would like to see how many times the bomb is attempted when Purge isn't up, hello stun immunity!!

 

[Dumle]

when your zerg is killed by 1 player rthat is not demoralising but sad

get a grip qc stun and DD him to oblivotion and stop cryign ffs

+

3wardens stacking TWF is as lethal as a reaver bomb, the problem is you never tried it/use it. would wipe the noobalbzerg in 1sec...

At first you say that a caster with roughly 1400-1500hp should stand still for 2 secs inside the TWF and QC a stun, then try to get a spell off to as you said "DD him to oblivion and stop crying ffs" well I have some news for you, you can only QC once and the TWF does actually disturb spellcasting meight.

The fact that after the initial bomb, if by some miracle a caster is still alive, the TWF will most definetly kill him even before he had the chance to "DD you to oblivion and stop crying ffs".

A MoCing Dark SM could probably nuke him down if he survives the initial bomb, but the probability of that is like 1%?

There actually isnt much defense if reavers gets the jump on you, you cant counter it if you are already caught in it.

 

[Bhalage]

u 2 misunderstood me.
i didnt say try to kill when twf is down m8s, but when u are in a zerg and u cant kill 1 enemy who is running in, well thats something i cant understand.. (saw many times ofc)
he should insta die on inc

ps: when there is a keeptake or smth and huge numbers of albs show up id try that warden grp (or BD grp) ofc ;>

 

[Jeriraa]

u 2 misunderstood me.
i didnt say try to kill when twf is down m8s, but when u are in a zerg and u cant kill 1 enemy who is running in, well thats something i cant understand.. (saw many times ofc)
he should insta die on inc

Doesnt amaze me that you cant understand it but I will explain: Its called Speed of Sound and is unbreakable speed + cc immunity.
Also the smart bombers (as AoD) never aproach from the open field. They use cover (eg come from behind towers or around the wall corners.). When you see them you they are already on you.

 

[willowywicca]

Doesnt amaze me that you cant understand it but I will explain: Its called Speed of Sound and is unbreakable speed + cc immunity.
Also the smart bombers (as AoD) never aproach from the open field. They use cover (eg come from behind towers or around the wall corners.). When you see them you they are already on you.

Don't think AoD run with a mincer, but hmm, that's a good idea xP I'm sure more mincers in reaver grps now x<

 

[Lcea]

The 4 reaver group runs with 2 clerics, 1 mincer, 1 sorc and 4 reavers (mostly)

When you go in to bomb the reavers usually have SoS + cere bracer stun block up and the sorc mezzes from extream range first

 

[Shike]

There actually isnt much defense if reavers gets the jump on you, you cant counter it if you are already caught in it.

I have never even seen prenerfreavers in action but:

Demor from BL should lower damage perhaps? Very fast to use aswell
Slam stops them from moving around? Not so fast to use :z
FZ make sure they cant do anything Fas
Buff from Soj (ancient bla bla..) might reduce damage? Very fast to use.
Use Speedwarps more efficiently to prevent a jump in Mach5.

Works? (not flaming or anything here, just trying to see ways around the reavers).

 

[Derric]

The Sojourner resistbuff thingie works to reduce dmg from both TWF and SQ.

 

[Shike]

The Sojourner resistbuff thingie works to reduce dmg from both TWF and SQ.

I guessed it would, but never met reavers so bit hard to try... works vs AT too? I guess it does. Mids tried stuff like this?

 

[willowywicca]

The Sojourner resistbuff thingie works to reduce dmg from both TWF and SQ.

yep, it's approx a 35% dmg reduction to both

 

[Ovi1]

yep, it's approx a 35% dmg reduction to both

In the typical hib zerg most people don't have a Soj Bard in their group. If they are lucky they have a perfector Bard, but even that isn't common.

Good reason to invite Rangers to groups though

 

[Bhalage]

Doesnt amaze me that you cant understand it but I will explain: Its called Speed of Sound and is unbreakable speed + cc immunity.
Also the smart bombers (as AoD) never aproach from the open field. They use cover (eg come from behind towers or around the wall corners.). When you see them you they are already on you.

dont know why doesnt it amaze u that i cant understand.. ? it would amaze me xD because actually im running with Stalky for 2-3months now, and i know how is it goin ;>

anyway no SoS in AoD and im inactive due to boooring keeptake nf ><
so

with u all

 

[xxManiacxx]

just blaim GOA for putting in 1.70 instead of jumping to 1.71 directly

 

[Gahn]

Well

In the typical hib zerg most people don't have a Soj Bard in their group. If they are lucky they have a perfector Bard, but even that isn't common.

Good reason to invite Rangers to groups though

If i'm not wrong it changes to Spirit dmg in few days (Soul Quench), also some Banelord stuff isn't anymore spammable, problem should lower a lot.

 

[Stunned]

There are tons of active, toa'd , decent rr, ml10 bards online every day on hib pryd.

 

[Gahn]

Glad

dont know why doesnt it amaze u that i cant understand.. ? it would amaze me xD because actually im running with Stalky for 2-3months now, and i know how is it goin ;>

anyway no SoS in AoD and im inactive due to boooring keeptake nf ><
so

with u all

U weren't round with those 1 (and in some cases 2) fg(s) running round yesterday with 3 reavers then ^^ Was mucho fun ... not tbh

 

[Tuorin]

Tbh a good group can deal with reaver bombs better than a zerg can. As discussed at length in this thread theres pros and cons. It easier for 1fg of people to beat a reaver group than a zerg as inherently you are near something where the reaver group is afforded something to allow for a greater element of surprise.

Have found a useful method of dealing with reaver group, however if you are caught unawares or somethings dont work as planned you will lose irrespective of skills more often than not. It will be easier, (not easy) from 1.71 to deal with and hopefully more people will rvr too.

 

[Derric]

I guessed it would, but never met reavers so bit hard to try... works vs AT too? I guess it does. Mids tried stuff like this?

Bad Omen (lé mixed group, but easier to just say BO) have at some occasions, but not really allowed to bomb versus them anyways.

 

[Edlina]

In the typical hib zerg most people don't have a Soj Bard in their group. If they are lucky they have a perfector Bard, but even that isn't common.

Good reason to invite Rangers to groups though

I betcha that out of all the high ml sojourner ranger/bards only a handful would be awake and at smart enough to remember to fire resistance of the ancients.

Considering the amount of whine something as "simple" as hib pbaoe grp bombing caused/causes. Consider how much more powerful and thus both effective and lethal reaver bombing is...

 

[Ovi1]

I betcha that out of all the high ml sojourner ranger/bards only a handful would be awake and at smart enough to remember to fire resistance of the ancients.

Considering the amount of whine something as "simple" as hib pbaoe grp bombing caused/causes. Consider how much more powerful and thus both effective and lethal reaver bombing is...

I bet 90% of the High ML sojourner Rangers would fire FZ by mistake, as it's on 9 of the 10 QB spaces

(The other is a /groundset command for the non-sojourners )

 

[Bhalage]

U weren't round with those 1 (and in some cases 2) fg(s) running round yesterday with 3 reavers then ^^ Was mucho fun ... not tbh

thats not aod gg gahn but its 'stalky reaver grp', when aod members not online - or nubing in thidranki looking for some fastpaced actions instead of keeptake zergsh*t - they make reaver grp from the 4 rr5+ reaver who are actively playing alb/pryd : )

never seen em but prolly hurting
that kind of grp is not for my likings =)