Sorry Hibs looks like you're no longer officially the underdog realm :-)

[Tuorin]

Can't say too much more than Shike did re Mids possible setup and what GOA have done, he got it spot on.

What I can say is that Mids are the fair weather realm. Its okay to go to emain and zerg it as 100 people, add on site on every full group, cfh if one of your groups aint having it its own way and zerg the opponents down, but its not okay for your enemies to be active in rvr.

Mids did sod all about that in emain when people told them about it. I'm sure albs were rightly pissed off that they couldnt leave APK pre NF because of the swarms and we barely got by Bolg. We got the QQ "try playing a mid on this server when there's nothing to fight".

Not all of us like NF, myself included. Most of it sucks. There are some places where you can have good fights like OF, but mids are the fair weather realm, if they outnumber they will log in, if the opponent dares to have the chance to beat them they don't.

I do have a tiny bit of sympathy as the camping of towers and finding opted groups in Alb zergs aint ideal. I do however recall the 4-5 Mid groups camping AMG hell i even remember 11am on a weekday and Mids preventing access to emain for both opposing realms due to numbers. Grip your shit and sort your apathy.

Ooh and the stars that camp Bled bridge, now are the same that camped AMG. Bonedancers f8ing on ladders is the new skills to add now mates.

 

[Bhalage]

Read my signature; making a reaver at the moment; level 44 now and will see with my own eyes how they perform :O

In the mean-time I ofcourse expect you to see the counter-side and fighting 2+ reavers bombing everything coming close to them (or better; everything they approach)

Or do you know deep in your heart its overpowered but pretending its not therefore creating self-esteem for yourselves claiming its down to skill :O

yes it is overpowered but its not the 1st overpowered thing in this game

baseline stun on caster, 2*GP, savages, BD etc are /were OP too

but if a zerg cant kill a reaver whos running in, well.. sorry but cant accept that.
dont be afk in front of the keep all i can say.
myself cant talk about the reaver grp, cuz i never saw them in action but im pretty sure a BD or warden grp cud do some serious killing too.
there is time and effort put it in those reaver grps, but no hibs/mids trying out zergkiller setups. maybe should (thats what i pointed out in my previous quote)

and lastly: yes i dont see the other side, im playing alb atm, and i really dont know how u feel when a reaver bomb hits the zerg. but not only albion has access to these toys ;>

 

[DaggerElivager]

reavers pissing me off now

came back from the pub and played a lil bit with bout a fg of us trying to defend and take a tower or 2 and we fended off some hibs at some tower ( i dont play much so dunno wot tower it was ) but before and after that soddin fg albs just run charging in with that shitty reaver bomb and just like insta kill....sooooooo feckin annoying

i not saying dont use it cos we all know if it was hibs that had reaver grps or mids with reaver grps they wud use them to but they are getting right on my tits



EDIT: dunno how off or on topic this is but i needed to rant and saw the word reaver sorry.

 

[Jeriraa]

I specifically said it was ignoring lord's room circumstances, so dunno why you described that, but I'll reply to this bit anyway

Treb range is atleast 3000( if I'm not mistaken, think it's more actually). thus standing safely around a keep while attacking with trebs you have 2*Pi*3000 (approximately 18000units circumference of circle)units to be standing on. That's just standing at treb range, you can of course be nearer or farther too. The maximumamount of that 18000 units coverable by a single twf is 500 (250 raidus, so 500 diameter). You can ofc assume you are only going to be attacking from one side of the keep, meaning 18000 units isn't realistic, while I would say about 25% is a feasible attack arc size if you spread, lets say you can only manage 10%, then you have an area of 1800 units to stand in. this will take 4 TWFs to cover. all placed to perfectly cover the area (very very difficult to achieve).

Now of course, when you factor in the fact people can be nearer than 3000 untis, and (for support types) can be further back.. it's more realistic to suppose that you'd need atleast 2-3 times as many TWFs to cover it all, that being 8-12 reavers.. which quite frankly has never existed in one place on this server. This is limiting the attack arc to only 10%.. you can spread more than that for certain. People like to stand together when sieging keeps, it gives a feeling of security. However it is that reason alone that they die, you do not need to be near each other(well, you should be near your groupmates, but even then you can spread a bit). The only people who need to be somewhat near together are people operating the rams, and their healers. And yes, they would probably not be able to avoid a bomb death, but they account for a very small amount of the average keep taking force. The radius of twf is really really small (250), it is *not* hard to be spread enough to avoid twf, and planting multiple twfs is not easily done since you cannot see where your friends have placed theirs.

It is also not hard to run out of twf, most it should do is 750 dmg (3 ticks, or if your bard is fast less, since he can use essence resist buff to change it to 170-180 per tick instead of 250) or more usually 2 ticks.

And that comes from a sorc... A force spread that far is probably safe from reaver bombs but wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide open for any kind of hit&run attack. Be it archers, assassins or the odd caster gank squad.

You still dont understand what I am saying thou. I'm not complaing about the fact that only Albs have the Reaver as a powerful weapon of mass destruction. I am saying that NO realm should have this tool at hands because what it does is griefing!
1 player destroys the gaming experience of lots others.

 

[Ovi1]

yes it is overpowered but its not the 1st overpowered thing in this game

baseline stun on caster, 2*GP, savages, BD etc are /were OP too

but if a zerg cant kill a reaver whos running in, well.. sorry but cant accept that.
dont be afk in front of the keep all i can say.
myself cant talk about the reaver grp, cuz i never saw them in action but im pretty sure a BD or warden grp cud do some serious killing too.
there is time and effort put it in those reaver grps, but no hibs/mids trying out zergkiller setups. maybe should (thats what i pointed out in my previous quote)

and lastly: yes i dont see the other side, im playing alb atm, and i really dont know how u feel when a reaver bomb hits the zerg. but not only albion has access to these toys ;>

Reavers may not be the first overpowered thing ever in the game, but I can't remember anything ever anywhere near as overpowered. Never before has ONE character been able to wipe a zerg, or at least the best part of.

Baseline stun may be overpowered, against ONE enemy at a time. 2*GP may have been over-powered, never seen it kill anyone though. Savage assist train may have been over-powered, they still had to kill the enemy one-by-one.

The only thing that ever came close to reaver bombs is a good set-up PB group, the Mid version being slightly better than Hibs due to AoE stun. To kill anywhere near the same numbers a reaver can it either takes considerably longer, allowing heals, or significantly more than 1 character in the group.

There are a lot of situations where it is NOT possible to spread out much, Lord room defenses being one, being afk or ak makes little difference, by the time you know the bomb is coming it's often too late, down 50% health, losing 250 more per tick, and snared so you can't run fast. Even if everyone is fully awake, the Bomb gives albs a 50% Health headstart, leaving most non-regular groups about as effective in their role as a chocolate Teapot.

The problem is compounded by the fact that the reaver has some other (overpowered?) good classes & abilities backing it up. Sorcs Bolt-range AOE mezz, Wizards Bolts, Theurgs spamming pets etc, all of which are capable of quickly finishing off a anyone who survived the initial Bomb.

As for can Hib / Mid create a group to do the same, the only answer is NO. They can't get close, but they can never do the same. Every discussion suggests that wardens or BD could do the same, but the big thing that they forget is that even if Mid or Hib get close it takes more than ONE charcter, and therefore introduces a significant increase in the difficulty of pulling it off succesfully, and that is what makes the Bomb so overpowered, it is very easy requires little or no coordination.

Only Reavers have access to these toys in the same combination on ONE character.

 

[Azathrim]

Only Reavers have access to these toys in the same combination on ONE character.

Excactly. Not to mention Reavers are the -only- to have access to Soul Quench which is a godlike combination with Agony Transmission. Giving Reavers this RA in combination with Banelord is simply absurd.

Yesterday was a good example really.

1-2fg mids were -trying- to take some towers in Alb land. I guess they had the futile thought they might be able to turn events. But, every time they were on the Lord or similiar AoD and company ran in and whiped all. Kudos for AoD for playing well. But, Stalky got surprisingly many deathspams within the same second.

Just imagine how the morale were in the Mid BG after that?

I wonder how the BG leader managed to keep up morale as long as he did. Great work.

The current Reaver bombs is like the Volcanic Pillar bombs. Both end up nerfed. But until then we can just wait. Personally I am doing that out of the frontiers (or as stealther if there) - there is simply no point.

 

[Derric]

And that comes from a sorc...

He's a cabalist though.

 

[Dumle]

Well, cabbies and sorcs = all alb 'mages' which was the subject, not elementalists who don't have a lifetap.

Sorc isnt primarily a damagedealer tho, they are your main CC, anyhoo it has been corrected now when it is casterland so who cares if they didnt nuke hard when it was all about tanks.

And if you were only referring to sorcs and cabbas (and only their baseline) maybe you shouldnt have wrote, "alb casters couldnt nuke for more than 180:ish" cause most other casters and even sorc and cabba with specnuke could always nuke a lot harder.

It didn't turn into casterland all that long ago, and the period I'm referring to was prior to that.

Not that albs have gained slots in their groups mind you, got to drop something to make room for a friar, which is a good way to get another bunch of smartass comments about group setups. Get a minstrel ! Get a reaver ! Get a cabby ! Get a cleric ! Get another cleric ! Get a sorc ! Get a friar ! Get a pally ! Get a theu ! Get a merc ! <yawn>

Better idea, leave albs decide what's good for them, we *can't* fit everything we'd like in a group.

Hey why going all aggressive all of a sudden? none can fit everything we want into a grp, as you said its a matter of choice. Albs always however make it sound as they dont have any chance of getting resists in the grp, as if the friar dont even exist.
IMO it would be extremely important atm to get a friar in the grp, above mincer or reaver just to get the resistbuffs, even if that is all he brings to the table so be it, he makes you take 350 (-350) instead of 518 (-182).

Thats why i said your choice, if you rather have one more damagedealer or speed 5 or reaverbomb sure you wont get resistbuffs, it actually is a choice.

 

[Dumle]

And if you were only referring to sorcs and cabbas (and only their baseline) maybe you shouldnt have wrote, "alb casters couldnt nuke for more than 180:ish"

I reread what you wrote and it was I who had misread, I interpreted mages as casters sorry

Still, alb "mages" could nuke harder than 180:ish depending on spec even before
They could even lifetap harder, atleast the cabba if bodyspecced ^^

 

[Jeriraa]

He's a cabalist though.

Yes ofcourse... actually I should know from the endless times I died to her with my healer in just under 3 seconds.
But actually I ment the same thing... she hits like a roadtrain and should know how easy it is to do a hit&run on a spreadout force.

You get split off and you are dead meat.

 

[Bhalage]

Reavers may not be the first overpowered thing ever in the game, but I can't remember anything ever anywhere near as overpowered. Never before has ONE character been able to wipe a zerg, or at least the best part of.

Baseline stun may be overpowered, against ONE enemy at a time. 2*GP may have been over-powered, never seen it kill anyone though. Savage assist train may have been over-powered, they still had to kill the enemy one-by-one.

The only thing that ever came close to reaver bombs is a good set-up PB group, the Mid version being slightly better than Hibs due to AoE stun. To kill anywhere near the same numbers a reaver can it either takes considerably longer, allowing heals, or significantly more than 1 character in the group.

There are a lot of situations where it is NOT possible to spread out much, Lord room defenses being one, being afk or ak makes little difference, by the time you know the bomb is coming it's often too late, down 50% health, losing 250 more per tick, and snared so you can't run fast. Even if everyone is fully awake, the Bomb gives albs a 50% Health headstart, leaving most non-regular groups about as effective in their role as a chocolate Teapot.

The problem is compounded by the fact that the reaver has some other (overpowered?) good classes & abilities backing it up. Sorcs Bolt-range AOE mezz, Wizards Bolts, Theurgs spamming pets etc, all of which are capable of quickly finishing off a anyone who survived the initial Bomb.

As for can Hib / Mid create a group to do the same, the only answer is NO. They can't get close, but they can never do the same. Every discussion suggests that wardens or BD could do the same, but the big thing that they forget is that even if Mid or Hib get close it takes more than ONE charcter, and therefore introduces a significant increase in the difficulty of pulling it off succesfully, and that is what makes the Bomb so overpowered, it is very easy requires little or no coordination.

Only Reavers have access to these toys in the same combination on ONE character.

did u yguys ever tried a warden twf bomber grp?
ofc not

 

[Bhalage]

Excactly. Not to mention Reavers are the -only- to have access to Soul Quench which is a godlike combination with Agony Transmission. Giving Reavers this RA in combination with Banelord is simply absurd.

Yesterday was a good example really.

1-2fg mids were -trying- to take some towers in Alb land. I guess they had the futile thought they might be able to turn events. But, every time they were on the Lord or similiar AoD and company ran in and whiped all. Kudos for AoD for playing well. But, Stalky got surprisingly many deathspams within the same second.

Just imagine how the morale were in the Mid BG after that?

I wonder how the BG leader managed to keep up morale as long as he did. Great work.

The current Reaver bombs is like the Volcanic Pillar bombs. Both end up nerfed. But until then we can just wait. Personally I am doing that out of the frontiers (or as stealther if there) - there is simply no point.

(i hope you are a fellow mid if not then soz for quoting)
did u guys ever tried a BL BD bomber grp?
ofc not.

end of story for me

 

[Bhalage]

and lastly : yes reaver bomb is insanely overpowered but dont think its a reaver who pushes 3-4buttons and a zerg dies, theres a group behind him ><
because if he gets dmg he wont twf but will die like a fly in the zerg

 

[Dumle]

(i hope you are a fellow mid if not then soz for quoting)
did u guys ever tried a BL BD bomber grp?
ofc not.

end of story for me

did u yguys ever tried a warden twf bomber grp?
ofc not

When are ppl gonna get it?
Its not the same thing as the reaverbomb for one reason and one reason only...

The Reaver RR5 ability, read about it and then perhaps you will understand, it will give the reaver full health again + do additional damage.

Why you think they call it a "reaverbomb" and not a BDbomb or Wardenbomb.

 

[willowywicca]

When are ppl gonna get it?
Its not the same thing as the reaverbomb for one reason and one reason only...

The Reaver RR5 ability, read about it and then perhaps you will understand, it will give the reaver full health again + do additional damage.

Why you think they call it a "reaverbomb" and not a BDbomb or Wardenbomb.

Why does it matter that it gives the reaver full life again?

Does the reaver then have to go around and slowly melee everyone dead?

No, the bomb is what kills them.. who cares if the BD dies, he can still bomb first (tho since no SQ he'll do 300-400 less dmg to the nearest targets). If an SM qc pbaoes once it'll do the same dmg as SQ would of, just requires a lil more coordination.

 

[Boggy]

I specifically said it was ignoring lord's room circumstances, so dunno why you described that, but I'll reply to this bit anyway

Treb range is atleast 3000( if I'm not mistaken, think it's more actually). thus standing safely around a keep while attacking with trebs you have 2*Pi*3000 (approximately 18000units circumference of circle)units to be standing on. That's just standing at treb range, you can of course be nearer or farther too. The maximumamount of that 18000 units coverable by a single twf is 500 (250 raidus, so 500 diameter). You can ofc assume you are only going to be attacking from one side of the keep, meaning 18000 units isn't realistic, while I would say about 25% is a feasible attack arc size if you spread, lets say you can only manage 10%, then you have an area of 1800 units to stand in. this will take 4 TWFs to cover. all placed to perfectly cover the area (very very difficult to achieve).

Now of course, when you factor in the fact people can be nearer than 3000 untis, and (for support types) can be further back.. it's more realistic to suppose that you'd need atleast 2-3 times as many TWFs to cover it all, that being 8-12 reavers.. which quite frankly has never existed in one place on this server. This is limiting the attack arc to only 10%.. you can spread more than that for certain. People like to stand together when sieging keeps, it gives a feeling of security. However it is that reason alone that they die, you do not need to be near each other(well, you should be near your groupmates, but even then you can spread a bit). The only people who need to be somewhat near together are people operating the rams, and their healers. And yes, they would probably not be able to avoid a bomb death, but they account for a very small amount of the average keep taking force. The radius of twf is really really small (250), it is *not* hard to be spread enough to avoid twf, and planting multiple twfs is not easily done since you cannot see where your friends have placed theirs.

It is also not hard to run out of twf, most it should do is 750 dmg (3 ticks, or if your bard is fast less, since he can use essence resist buff to change it to 170-180 per tick instead of 250) or more usually 2 ticks.

I only mentioned the Lord's room because you DID talk about it in your post preceding mine, claiming there is plenty of room.

The rest of your post is fundamentally flawed because it uses a treb's max range as the distance in which to spread, when in fact anyone that far away from the rest of their group would be easy meat from just about anyone who came along.

In reality, your force needs to be able to react in a tiny amount of time to an enemy charge. That's not possible if you're too far away to see and get to the inc very quickly, because half your force will be dead before you're in the battle.

If you're spread enough to make a reaver bomb less than a fight winning tool, you're spread enough that and enemy charge will only be met by a fraction of your force, making the enemy's job pretty easy.

Even if it were possible to spread everyone else out, you'd still have those convenient little reaver homing beacons we call FoPs on which to kill many healers and nukers.

 

[Bhalage]

When are ppl gonna get it?
Its not the same thing as the reaverbomb for one reason and one reason only...

The Reaver RR5 ability, read about it and then perhaps you will understand, it will give the reaver full health again + do additional damage.

Why you think they call it a "reaverbomb" and not a BDbomb or Wardenbomb.

its not the same thing but insane firepower and you guys never tried it and never use it.

When are ppl gonna get it?

 

[Jeriraa]

its not the same thing but insane firepower and you guys never tried it and never use it.

When are ppl gonna get it?

Why did the USA drop the bomb twice but Russia not once?
Why did Germany use poison gas in the WW1 but GB and France didnt?
Why do some people refrain from posting the same shit over and over without thinking and some dont?

Start thinking.

 

[Dumle]

Why does it matter that it gives the reaver full life again?

Does the reaver then have to go around and slowly melee everyone dead?

No, the bomb is what kills them.. who cares if the BD dies, he can still bomb first (tho since no SQ he'll do 300-400 less dmg to the nearest targets). If an SM qc pbaoes once it'll do the same dmg as SQ would of, just requires a lil more coordination.

Read again what I wrote, I said It heals him up AND does ADDITIONAL damage There is no other character able to bomb as well, its a fact.

 

[willowywicca]

I only mentioned the Lord's room because you DID talk about it in your post preceding mine, claiming there is plenty of room.

The rest of your post is fundamentally flawed because it uses a treb's max range as the distance in which to spread, when in fact anyone that far away from the rest of their group would be easy meat from just about anyone who came along.

In reality, your force needs to be able to react in a tiny amount of time to an enemy charge. That's not possible if you're too far away to see and get to the inc very quickly, because half your force will be dead before you're in the battle.

If you're spread enough to make a reaver bomb less than a fight winning tool, you're spread enough that and enemy charge will only be met by a fraction of your force, making the enemy's job pretty easy.

Even if it were possible to spread everyone else out, you'd still have those convenient little reaver homing beacons we call FoPs on which to kill many healers and nukers.

I suggest you reread what I said about lord rooms. Take notice of the negatives in the sentence which you seemed to miss first time. Also I think you should reread what I was saying about being 3000units from the keep (not each other) since you seem to think I said you should be 3000 units apart each.

A reaver bomb has 250 radius on twf and SQ (the banelord abilities have larger radius, but are not reaver exclusive in any way so can be disregarded since any banelord could do the same). It is bloody easy to be spread out such that only a small number of people occupy each 500unit square, while still being near each other. clip range is somewhere in the region of 2800-3x00 units.. taking it as being 2800 (it's more but whatever) units, the area you can be spread over (assuming one side has to see the other.. ? why btw, can't you say "inc <direction>!" in BG?) is Pi(1400*1400) = 1960000Pi. The radius of a reaver bomb is Pi(250*250) = 62500Pi. So it takes roughly 31 reaver bombs to cover that area. Again assuming perfectly coordinated placement of twfs/SQs which is of course impossible. This is when you are only so spread that everyone can see everyone else. If you spread a little further it becomes even more unfeasible to bomb..

Also being spread makes you less vulnerable to charges in general, since you can't be caught in an initial mezz bunched together. you will be spread out making it impossible to mezz even a moderation percentage of the force.

Spreading out is good.
Spreading out prevents gank groups killing you (yes I've killed many zergs while having no reaver in OF and NF. if they're spread out when we charge, we die very fast. if they're bunched up (like usually they are) we kill many if not all of them).
It prevents reaver bombs killing you (for obvious reasons).

It might make you slightly more vulnerable to guerrilla type hit and run attacks. Tho not significantly so.. since many CCers will not be caught by the attackers CC (since they're spread out) and assuming they're not afk, and that people promptly give descriptions of INC in the bg, they will move the correct way and probably CC the attacking group.

Anyone who has fought against 2 fg, and against 1fg + a 2nd fg who adds a short while (even 5~seconds) later can tell you. Fighting 2fg from the outset is a lot easier than fighting an adding group. It is the same when attacking a zerg. If the zerg is all close together on inc it's an easier fight than if they are spread out.

 

[Boggy]

I suggest you rewrite what you said rather than make me reread something that will still be wrong

You said players have a 3000 diameter to spread in. As I said, if players attempt to use that whole area to spread, they will be too far from each other when the enemy charges. They don't need to be 3000 from each other to be too far. As soon as they are out of easy reaction range, they are too far.

To give you your due, if it was possible to carefully organise the disposition of each character on a nice little 18000 unit map, maybe something workable and useful could be arrived at. Unfortunately, this is DAoC, which is first person perspective and players are positioned collaboratively - not Sabuteo table football where we all get nicely laid out by a nerd with a ruler.

Spreading out is good. Reaver bombs are better.

 

[Ctuchik]

Perhaps Mythic should "invent" an overpopulated negative bonus?

i still hold fast about that idea.. its working rather well on planetside.. IE: if one side is TO overpopulated. they gain LESS xp per kill and get LESS hitpoints where the most underpopulated side gains in those 2 areas.

the advantege and disadvantages of the pop bonis isnt huge on PS. but enough to make a little diffrence... (unless theres just 10 ppl on one side and 100+ on the other side on one cont. then the 10 ppl get some 40%+ hitpoint bonus but its not like that does any good anyway...

but id like to see something like this in DAoC.

 

[Equendil]

Sorc isnt primarily a damagedealer tho, they are your main CC, anyhoo it has been corrected now when it is casterland so who cares if they didnt nuke hard when it was all about tanks.

Hmm those players not playing tanks ?

And if you were only referring to sorcs and cabbas (and only their baseline) maybe you shouldnt have wrote, "alb casters couldnt nuke for more than 180:ish" cause most other casters and even sorc and cabba with specnuke could always nuke a lot harder.

Maybe I shouldn't have, and maybe that's why I didn't and FYI, I didn't bring up the lifetap out of thin air, I was replying to some hib who did.

Hey why going all aggressive all of a sudden? none can fit everything we want into a grp, as you said its a matter of choice. Albs always however make it sound as they dont have any chance of getting resists in the grp, as if the friar dont even exist.
IMO it would be extremely important atm to get a friar in the grp, above mincer or reaver just to get the resistbuffs, even if that is all he brings to the table so be it, he makes you take 350 (-350) instead of 518 (-182).

Thats why i said your choice, if you rather have one more damagedealer or speed 5 or reaverbomb sure you wont get resistbuffs, it actually is a choice.

The post wasn't about DAoC 'at the moment', and it's a little more complicated than albs "refusing to get a friar" as you wrote, sorry if you don't get it.

 

[Equendil]

I reread what you wrote and it was I who had misread, I interpreted mages as casters sorry

You also interpreted as if I said that they "couldn't hit for more than 180", which I never did, it's however a number that would commonly pop on my system window.

 

[remi]

<3




.

 

[Dumle]

Hmm those players not playing tanks ?



Maybe I shouldn't have, and maybe that's why I didn't and FYI, I didn't bring up the lifetap out of thin air, I was replying to some hib who did.



The post wasn't about DAoC 'at the moment', and it's a little more complicated than albs "refusing to get a friar" as you wrote, sorry if you don't get it.

If they chose to play anything other than tank back then Im pretty sure they werent set on playing the role as damagedealer, sorc would be a great class even without the lvl 50 baseline LT. However I dont think its more than fair that they have one.

Well, its no use talking about that a class may or may not have been poo in the past IMO, its the now that counts.
And yes, it is that simple, they can choose to tone down on their damageoutput by either take away one reaverbomber or a caster to get a friar for resistbuffs and go a bit more defensive.
Its always a choice what setup you run, If Im not mistaken AoD runs with a friar atm yes? So I guess its doable?

Dont say you absolutely cant take this or that into your group, its all about how you want to form your group and what abilitys you need.

Oh no, we can't ignore alb mages nuking for 180ish til it's their turn to be stundebuffpwned anymore !

That was the quote I was referring to. Well now you say you could nuke harder, in that case why choose to only nuke for 180:ish?


PS. And talking about lifetaps and how sorcs did poor damage before, well Animists and Valewalkers still have a subpar LvL45 delve 160:ish (dont know exact numbers) one. Think they deserve a lvl 50 too, dont you?

 

[willowywicca]

I suggest you rewrite what you said rather than make me reread something that will still be wrong

You said players have a 3000 diameter to spread in. As I said, if players attempt to use that whole area to spread, they will be too far from each other when the enemy charges. They don't need to be 3000 from each other to be too far. As soon as they are out of easy reaction range, they are too far.

To give you your due, if it was possible to carefully organise the disposition of each character on a nice little 18000 unit map, maybe something workable and useful could be arrived at. Unfortunately, this is DAoC, which is first person perspective and players are positioned collaboratively - not Sabuteo table football where we all get nicely laid out by a nerd with a ruler.

Spreading out is good. Reaver bombs are better.

Yes, there's plenty of area for people to stand at in keep offence so that the effects of bombs is minimal, in lord room defences ofc it's not possible

Hmm I suppose you're misreading this as "ofc in lord rooms it's not possible to bomb" when the logical way of reading it given the start of the sentence, is that it's not possible to stand in such a way to minimise effects of a bomb.

Why exactly is 3000 units too far away? I would say you're 100% wrong saying 3000 units away (or even less in my scenario since 2800 is the maximum anyone would be away, but many would be nearer) is too far away. In fact again I will state, that from my own experiences in rvr, being spread out that much will provide a *benfit* to defence. Assuming you have speed5 (ctr bards/skalds?) it'll take you maybe 5-10 seconds max to reach the fight. That delay is to your benefit, as it makes it harder for the enemy to deal with you when you come *after* their battle starts. If you are there at the start they will kill you much easier. Trust me on that.

Yes of course it is not possible to get players to stand equally apart spread across the region. That's not what I'm saying, obvously amongst your own group you will probably be quite close to them, but aside fom that, you can afford to spread out, there is a lot of space (31 times the radius of twf space) and if you just keep a small distance away from the other groups you will increase the chances of the zerg as a whole surviving immensely. Best would be if you can have groups spread out around the outer part of the circle, and ungrouped/mini-grps nearer the centre, but that ofc is very hard to achieve.

Btw you say you can't even be at clip range to your realm mates as that is "out of easy reaction range". Why is that out of easy reaction range? If that isn't easy reaction range (I would say anything up to maybe 6000 units if you have mach5 is easy reaction range) what is?

And one final question, have you ever killed a zerg with your group? If so how often, and when the zerg was spread out did you find it easier or harder?

 

[Boggy]

You say it would only take 5-10secs to get into the fight, but imagine some realistic scenarios (and btw, if one of those CTR bards enters combat/dies, you'll lose speed on a lot of people).

Hib/Mid force is spread around 18000 units. As you seem to agree, the pattern of this is likely to be groups fairly near each other, but with more space between groups. Also we can expect a certain amount of clustering around FoPs for obvious reasons.

The (equally sized, let's say) Alb force of defenders is inside the siege piece.

First problem - the Albs have all their people available to nuke/shoot any attackers within range of the battlements, but the attackers only have half their people in this range. The Attackers must either withdraw out of bow range (cutting the space they can spread a lot) or take quite heavy constant pounding from the defenders.

Second problem (assuming the attackers somehow keep the battlements clear from the superior numbers of defenders) is the need to defend the Trebs. Albs defend their trebs with their whole force, and most often it makes them invulnerable, but here we're saying we can only use a group or so in the immediate vicinity of the trebs - some of whom will be operating the trebs themselves. This is going to make them easy to wreck or susceptible to a charge from a roaming group.

The main problem though comes if the Albs charge. Normally, attackers of equal sized force would have equal chances of defending against a sally from defenders. This is not the case if they are spread as far as you suggest. The entire force of Albs will hit a relative small proportion of the Hibs/Mids. As you say, some of those Hibs/Mids will take 5-10 secs to get into the fight, by which time many of them will be dead compared to relatively few dead Albs. From that point on they are fighting superior numbers.

If the Albs use the reaverbomb to spearhead their charge, they can take out a significant proportion of the attackers with almost no damage to themselves.

Spreading out mitigates the impact of area effects, but you still need to be close enough to actually help in the fight. Against reaver bombs this gives you an unsolvable dilemma, because you can't spread enough to stop them killing significant numbers without putting a lot of your force in positions where they cannot help your quickly enough.

 

[willowywicca]

Second problem (assuming the attackers somehow keep the battlements clear from the superior numbers of defenders) is the need to defend the Trebs. Albs defend their trebs with their whole force, and most often it makes them invulnerable, but here we're saying we can only use a group or so in the immediate vicinity of the trebs - some of whom will be operating the trebs themselves. This is going to make them easy to wreck or susceptible to a charge from a roaming group.

The main problem though comes if the Albs charge. Normally, attackers of equal sized force would have equal chances of defending against a sally from defenders. This is not the case if they are spread as far as you suggest. The entire force of Albs will hit a relative small proportion of the Hibs/Mids. As you say, some of those Hibs/Mids will take 5-10 secs to get into the fight, by which time many of them will be dead compared to relatively few dead Albs. From that point on they are fighting superior numbers.

If the Albs use the reaverbomb to spearhead their charge, they can take out a significant proportion of the attackers with almost no damage to themselves.

Spreading out mitigates the impact of area effects, but you still need to be close enough to actually help in the fight. Against reaver bombs this gives you an unsolvable dilemma, because you can't spread enough to stop them killing significant numbers without putting a lot of your force in positions where they cannot help your quickly enough.

Why exactly do you need to keep the battlements clear of defenders? You can treb the wall from beyond the defender's range. The only real need for attacking defenders is when on the inner keep. And on the inner keep (of a high level keep) there are 3 levels of battlements to spread over, adding a third dimension to the ability to spread out to avoid bombs, again meaning there is plenty of space. (each fg takes 1 level of a tower on the battlements for example)

As for the defenders charging the attackers with their entire zerg.. this is not something that can happen in the space of a few seconds, there should be plenty of time for NS/Rangers to spot and warn of impending charges.. it is however possible that a large zerg that was amassed elsewhere would charge and attack you. In this case, yes, the side that they initially charge at would likely suffer high casualties, however when the rest of the zerg moves to defend it instantly puts the attacking zerg at a disadvantage due to the fact they are already engaged in combat with certain targets..

Have you ever faced 2fg of albs? And have you ever faced 1fg of albs followed by another fg shortly after (a few seconds later)? The 2nd scenario is *much* harder to survive, even if it is the same 2fg of players both times. It doesn't matter if you've killed 1/2 the first grp before the 2nd grp adds in the second scenario, it is still much harder to win.

Being able to instantly identify all enemy targets and take action accordingly is a lot easier than constantly identifying new targets and modifying your actions based on each new appearance. Also if you attack a bunched up zerg you will be facing all your enemies in front of you, when they add later it will be an attack on 3 fronts (2 sides also). The closer together the groups of your zerg are, the more susceptable to ae CC they are which (bombs aside) is what kills zergs.

Again I will ask you, how any zergs have you killed? And which were easier/tougher to kill and why?

My belief that spreading out to the extent I have said will benefit zergs comes from my experiences in fighting against many zergs (and wining on occassion, losing badly other times) both as a hib and as an alb. I have observed what made us win or lose, and a major role is how spread out the enemies were when we charge. If they are close enough that we can CC most with only a handful of mezzes we stand a good chance of winning even if they heavily outnumber us. If they are far apart enough that it's impossible to CC them all before their tanks have engaged us, then we're pretty screwed even if we might outnumber them...

 

[Equendil]

Dont say you absolutely cant take this or that into your group

Can't you once reply to what I wrote and not what you imagine I wrote ?

That was the quote I was referring to. Well now you say you could nuke harder, in that case why choose to only nuke for 180:ish?

<sigh>. 140 delve lifetap on 50% body resists = crap damage, it's not a choice, it's what was fucking happening. Or maybe now you're going to tell me it was my choice to fight hibs with 50% body resists ?

PS. And talking about lifetaps and how sorcs did poor damage before, well Animists and Valewalkers still have a subpar LvL45 delve 160:ish (dont know exact numbers) one. Think they deserve a lvl 50 too, dont you?

Animists yes, Valewalkers are melee hybrids, so not really no. Of course changing one means changing the other one, gotta love Mythic.