Some evil people in this world.. (pt 2)

[Testin da Cable]

when I hear things like this I wonder if capital punishment should be brought back with a vengence. A pish warning and 100 hours (suspended for first offence) community service isn't a deterrant for some, but some gentle words by a kind officer and then a severe thrashing -twice to make sure the point gets across- well...that, I feel, would serve a lot better.

I know it is a more 'civilised' manner to phych people into not committing crimes, but I fear that -for some- it's just not enough.
Capital punishment will _not_ get rid of crime I'm well aware, but perhaps it will discourage the average youthful yob.

 

[Jonny_Darko]

The problem is that the parents are just as bad. When I was a kid, if you mucked about, then people told your parents about it and you got punished. Now, if you were to take a townie urchin by the ear and march him up to his house to tell his mum and dad that he's just molotov-cocktailed your car you'd probably just get a beating from the father while the mother shouts "That's it, 'it 'im again! Innit." while cuddling her son and telling him that he's a good boy.

 

[PR.]

Originally posted by ECA
Crime and Punishment.


Someones been forgetting the second part recently...

I'd prefer prevention.

This has only got this bad in the last 30+ years, so whats changed that now makes people do these things?

 

[Jonny_Darko]

Originally posted by PR.
This has only got this bad in the last 30+ years, so whats changed that now makes people do these things?

Ummm, right.

- The loss of the feeling of community.
- Large numbers of people living in poverty.
- Our unwillingness to teach kids about sex and family-planning properly. Most parents these days put their fingers in their ears and go "Lalalalalala - no my teenage kids aren't having sex" rather than doing the sensible thing "Of course my teens are having sex. I can not stop them. But I can make sure they do it carefully."
- Our appalling standards of schooling in the last 20 years.
- An unwillingness to actually punish people. The "no, I'm afraid we can't do anything about the fact that your child is bullied at school every day" syndrome.
- A legal system that is fundamentally flawed. It's not about who did the crime, it's about who can afford the best lawyer.
- Police that, although it's not their fault, are practically useless.
- European human rights laws that make sure we can't even protect our homes if we come back to find our loved ones being attacked by an intruder.

...I'm sure there are dozens more.

 

[Furr]

eh! if it carries on like this for another 20 years, i would think that the british population as a whole would finaly give up on the goverment, and reset the whole system.

Hell 5 years would be bad enough!!! Politics has been made a career, the goverments have interferred with everything, and in most cases either made things worse or collapse.

The current parties are all redundant. Its a fucking mess to be honest.

Give power back to the Monarchy for a while so that the mess that is our goverment can be sorted out.

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by Jonny_Darko
- Stupid European human rights laws that make sure we can't even protect our homes if we come back to find our loved ones being attacked by an intruder.

...I'm sure there are dozens more.

The law allows you to use 'reasonable force'. That does not include:

shooting intruders
gouging their eyes out
breaking their limbs
stabbing them repeatedly

etc.

Saying that, if I caught somebody in my house, I like to think they'd get a good clout around the head with a piece of wood. Or maybe I'd cut a finger off, and keep it in a pickle jar with vinegar, just for the hospital to stitch it back on (but I preserved it!!)

 

[tris-]

when we all vote for the right government that doesnt give benefits to the scruffy bastards, then i thnk they will all die out within a few years.

 

[Jonny_Darko]

Yes, and do you know what the law considers reasonable force?

I believe the exact line of the law is "like a shoe, or a pen".

"Excuse me, young rapscallion, would you mind getting off of my beaten girlfriend while I take my shoes off. Prepare for a good hiding you rascal."

I'd just pick up the nearest and heaviest piece of furniture in the room and smash it over the his head.

Then I would prepare to become similarly acquainted with my new cellmate for the next 20 years.

 

[Damini]

My house has got a glass front door. Its basically a huge window, slightly hazey glass, but if you are standing on the doorstep up close I can see you as clearly as you can see me.

A couple months back Kenny was working late in London, and I was home alone. I heard voices clear as day, was scared someone was in the house. I creep round to my front door and pressed up against the glass are a group of about eight guys - three against the door, one sat at their feet still on the doorstep, and four in the space just beyond.

I was fucking terrified. How stupid is that? Twenty four years old, and its not like I'm all sheltered and I've never been in a scrap, but I didn't know what to do. I ended up hiding in my bedroom, so they couldn't see me. I figured if I walk past and they know I'm in the house and I don't do anything, thats saying its fine for them to be there and they'll do it whenever they like. If I ask them to leave I'm asking for trouble, even if it doesn't come that instant.

So I hid in my bedroom, and phoned Kenny's brother in law to come over, speaking as quietly as I could on the phone so they wouldn't hear me.

How shit? They were all about sixteen, just deciding to stand bold as brass on my doorstep, pressed up against my glass door at night time, smoking and swearing.

And I was lucky. Me and Kieran's friend Kevin, his wife Jamie is pregnant and works in a pub. One of Kevin's friends offered to walk her home, because it was night time, and on the way home two kids and their slappers stood in their way and started doing all the intimidation lark. This guy, bearing in mind he's forty, said "come on kids, out my way."

"Lets get this straight. I aint no fucking kid."

"Come on, don't give me grief, you should be in bed."

They start squaring up, and Jamie said she was pregant, and the girls start going "Cut it out, she's pregnant, leave it alone"

Kevin's friend got stabbed twice. Once in the back. Jamie managed to help him home, where he bled all over their settee until the ambulance arrived. They missed major organs by centimetres.

Now, they know who did the stabbing, (BECAUSE HE STABBED SOMEONE THE MONTH BEFORE!!) but has he been arrested? Nope. Can't find him. He hasn't bothered going to school for the past few months, and his parents refuse to help. Besides, when they catch him they only plan to do him for assault anyway, so they don't see it as a high priority, not when there are murders and attempted murders about. Love that logic. Because his aim is off, its not as bad. You don't stab someone twice to warn them. If I stab someone twice, I do it to kill them. I don't see it as a playful punch.

Whats the fucking point?



I'm sorry Super Gray that this has happened to your mum, and even more sorry that knowing the law fuck all will happen to the people that did this.

 

[tris-]

the only bad experience i had with the police was when someone was throwing fire works at my window, i phoned them up and they said theyd be here in about 30 minutes. 1 week later i still heard nothing about it. your best off just phoning 999 straight away.
yes your not supposed to but i was told by a police officer that your better off phoning 999 than the local station because its not likely anyone is going to come. for instance, damini, those people stood at your door where breaking the law as they were traspassing, aslong as they are breaking the law the officer said its ok to phone 999, even for something as small as that.

 

[stu]

Originally posted by Jonny_Darko
Yes, and do you know what the law considers reasonable force?

I believe the exact line of the law is "like a shoe, or a pen".

Did you read that in The Sun or something? Your last two posts reek of tabloid journalism. It's very easy to jump on the bandwagon and witter on about how "crap" the justice system is in this country, but at least be able to back it up, or you'll just end up looking like you're recycling Piers Morgan's crap.

The law considers reasonable force is "that which a reasonable person would consider acceptable given the circumstances". Although I believe even that description has been updated (that's what it was when I did Criminal Justice). It certainly doesn't mention shoes, pens, or any other 'tools' of damage.

 

[stu]

Originally posted by Damini
Besides, when they catch him they only plan to do him for assault anyway, so they don't see it as a high priority, not when there are murders and attempted murders about. Love that logic.

The Police don't decide what to "do" people for. That's the CPS' job.

 

[Furr]

Jonny_Darko is right, techincally the law states that when defending, you have the right to defend yourself with reasonable force and this includes using items you have with you such as an umbrella, bag, briefcase or keys. However, don't carry or use anything that the law would regard as an offensive weapon

Bollox if you ask me

 

[Will]

I'm glad some people here don't run the country. I realise that some of the crimes mentioned are terrible, but I wouldn't like to like in a society that cut off hands, left people to starve, or let you kill people legally in your own home.

 

[Uncle Sick(tm)]

Well, say about the US what you want.. I lived and worked in Maine for about 10 years - whenever (the few times) we had to call the cops, they were quick, efficient and dealt with the problem right away.

I remember calling the cops on some loud neighbors (we had just started out as a little family, the wife, me and the wee one and lived in a small, cheap apartment) - about a dozen Puerto Ricans living upstairs - eleven pm at night, baby had just fallen asleep and the bastards started playing on their fucking piano.. danced, yelled etc.

So I went upstairs twice.
They kept it up - I phoned the police (hey, I was sixteen then and they were a dozen) told them about the whole situation and two (no kidding) minutes later, two police cruisers stopped outside the house.
Can't say the cops were really friendly to our neighbors. They went upstairs like a company of stormtroopers and did a good deal of yelling.

About two months later someone two streets away was killed with a shotgun - cops severly injured the guy (the guy with the gun) when he tried to leg it.

We moved after that.

 

[Jonny_Darko]

Check this out for an infuriating police experience.

When I was seventeen, I went to a house party. Afterwards this guy, who was a new recruit to the police force, went round telling everyone that he'd shagged my girlfriend at said party.

I approached him in the street a couple of days later, and told him calmly and logically that he was lying. "How can you possibly believe you slept with her Chris, I was with her for the entire evening, except when she went to the toilet a couple of times, and each time she was only gone two minutes." I paused, an idea forming. "And if THAT's what you mean, maybe we should keep your lack of staying power to ourselves eh?"

His response: "Next time I see you out, I'm going to beat you to death you [expletives followed]." Now, I knew he wasn't lying...he was a big, psychotic, thug who had been suspended twice for hospitalising other kids at the school before he left to join the force.

So I wrote to his SuperIntendent. Basically I said I was disgusted that an active officer could lie about my girlfriend and threaten my very life in public. I said he was a psycho at school and was this the kind of person the police should be employing? I also demanded a public apology from the lad in question.

The response I got back was very patronising, and accused me of lying to smear a "good officer's" reputation.

Then, I found out about a body called the PCA: http://www.pca.gov.uk/ - a supposedly indepenent body set up to monitor the behaviour of our police force. So I wrote to them, and do you know what they did? Forwarded the letter straight to the obviously biased superintendent I had already corresponded with, who sent me an even more patronising anf insulting letter and basically told me to back off or I would be in trouble!

I have never trusted the police since, and never will. They obviously aren't policed, which is a very worrying state of affairs.

 

[Tom]

If I saw two people in the street, and one was a policeman, I'd be more inclined to trust the policeman than the stranger. Anyway, they're only human, and all of the police I've encountered have been ok sorts.

 

[Testin da Cable]

Originally posted by Will.
I'm glad some people here don't run the country. I realise that some of the crimes mentioned are terrible, but I wouldn't like to like in a society that cut off hands, left people to starve, or let you kill people legally in your own home.

I will be perfectly happy to hold my bleeding, beaten-up girlfriend in my arms while some lout makes off with my wallet and my dvd player under his arm if I know for a _fact_ that he/she will be caught and sentenced to 20 years hard labor that very same day for breaking and entering, theft, aggravated assualt and attempted murder.

sadly I imagine that that is never going to happen. if I come home to see someone ransacking my house while my girlfriend lies bleeding on the floor they will be lucky to escape with their lives.

"I just don't know officer, he must have tripped and fallen down the stairs"

 

[Clowneh!]

sorry to hear that bruv

not even the guys round here would do that, thats just low

 

[stu]

Originally posted by Jonny_Darko
Check this out for an infuriating police experience...

I have never trusted the police since, and never will. They obviously aren't policed, which is a very worrying state of affairs.

So basically, you got into a typical pissed-lads style argument with a bloke, decided to report him to his boss (would you have done this to, for example, a doctor? Or even just someone who works in retail or a customer-facing job?), you didn't get the response you wanted, so therefore all police are corrupt fascist bastards who do whatever they want and have no restrictions placed on them.

Congratulations - you won a free subscription to the Daily Mail.

 

[Jonny_Darko]

Originally posted by stu
So basically, you got into a typical pissed-lads style argument with a bloke, decided to report him to his boss (would you have done this to, for example, a doctor? Or even just someone who works in retail or a customer-facing job?), you didn't get the response you wanted, so therefore all police are corrupt fascist bastards who do whatever they want and have no restrictions placed on them.

Congratulations - you won a free subscription to the Daily Mail.

You have no idea how unfair you are being. I'm not, and never was, a pissed-up lout that argues with people. I was always sensitive, quiet and kept to myself. He lied about the woman I loved, made her out to be slapper to everyone. Then he threatened my life. You want people like this to be our police? Go ahead.

Sorry but you've really irked me now. Any idea how much worry and pain this whole incident caused us at the time? So you've decided to patronise me and trivialise the whole situation.

And you HONESTLY don't see a problem with the fact that our police aren't policed, and that the "independent body" set up to do so actually just refers it back to the police internally?

 

[Will]

Originally posted by Testin da Cable
"I just don't know officer, he must have tripped and fallen down the stairs"

Thats not quite what I meant.

 

[Testin da Cable]

I know. I'd prolly just tell the truth.

 

[stu]

Originally posted by Jonny_Darko
Sorry but you've really irked me now. Any idea how much worry and pain this whole incident caused us at the time? So you've decided to patronise me and trivialise the whole situation.

And you HONESTLY don't see a problem with the fact that our police aren't policed, and that the "independent body" set up to do so actually just refers it back to the police internally...are you insane?

You missed the point.

Firstly, the Police are heavily regulated. Your letter will have caused an internal misconduct investigation. A Senior Police Officer does not have the option to just ignore a complaint - it *has* to be investigated, unless the complaint is dropped.

Secondly, it was no surprise it got nowhere. Thirty seconds reading about the Police Complaints Authority will tell you that they are for investigating complaints against misconduct in the line of duty. Presuming your 'friend' wasn't on duty at the time and wearing his uniform, you were never going to get anywhere.

A police officer is a human being. When they are off duty, they are a person - just like a doctor, or a lawyer, or a sales assistant, or a waiter. If this person happened to work in Asda on the tills, would you have written to his manager telling him how deplorable it was that someone of that nature is allowed to deal with the public on a daily basis? No, you wouldn't.

What happened between you was a private matter. A bit of bragging, a bit of shouting, a few threats. You even said yourself that you attempted to bait him. Assume he wasn't a police officer. Would you have reported the situation to the Police? Of course you wouldn't. What would you say? "This guy bragged that he shagged my girlfriend, so I confronted it about him, called him impotent, and he threatened to beat me up." Unfortunately, besmirching a lady's honour isn't an offence any more, so you don't have the right to ask him for satisfaction.

At the end of the day, you have absolutely no proof that anything at all occurred. You wrote in with a totally unsubstantiated claim and actually expected some sort of disciplinary to occur? Would you be happy if anyone could write to your boss at work, complain about you (legitimate or otherwise), and have you sacked?

 

[tris-]

Originally posted by Will.
or let you kill people legally in your own home.

so if some crazy guy with an axe broke into your house trying to kill you, would you rather you killed him than he killed you? he shouldnt even be there in the first place.

 

[Jonny_Darko]

Originally posted by stu
You missed the point.
Firstly, the Police are heavily regulated. Your letter will have caused an internal misconduct investigation. A Senior Police Officer does not have the option to just ignore a complaint - it *has* to be investigated, unless the complaint is dropped.

They ignored it because I was 17 at the time and they didn't take me seriously.

And no, you're still wrong. Call me old fashioned but a police officer should be a pillar of the community. He or she should stand tall and be a decent human being in all circumstances, whether on duty or off. This should be a caring person, who us normal civilans should trust with our lives if necessary.

Saying he was off duty so he's ok to act like a violent thug is not acceptable. I don't act like that when I leave work and so certainly don't expect the people who I view as our protectors, and whose salries we pay, to act like that either.

 

[Will]

Originally posted by n3wbie
so if some crazy guy with an axe broke into your house trying to kill you, would you rather you killed him than he killed you? he shouldnt even be there in the first place.

Please do me a favour and think before you hit reply.

You have the right to use reasonable force. You could run away, you could knock him out, you could probably injure someone in that situation (like it would ever happen), and you'd be fine. The point I made is you can't kill someone for breaking into your house, if you had an option not to.

 

[DApea!]

I (dare to) think the Police care more for road safety and the revenue they're aquiring from speeding offences.

I pretty much only see traffic vehicles, otherwise it's when in town reasonably late attending a friends birthday or works "leaving do", when the Police enjoy sitting around in their riot wagons waiting for a fight to emerge.

So when they leave with "omfg prisoner yay11!!1" in the van, the real conflicts occur.

 

[icemaiden]

Even if the guy was off duty they should take the complaint seriously coz of bringing the force into disrepute(sp?). Although if i was a chief inspector and got handed a complaint like that about one of my officers i would piss myself laughing

 

[Jonny_Darko]

Originally posted by Will.
Please do me a favour and think before you hit reply.

You have the right to use reasonable force. You could run away, you could knock him out, you could probably injure someone in that situation (like it would ever happen), and you'd be fine. The point I made is you can't kill someone for breaking into your house, if you had an option not to.

Sorry, doesn't work like that pal. If someone illegally enters your home, your haven, the place you go to for protection, the place you work for, and attampts to or does hurt someone you love, what do you do?

Stand there and contemplate which actions will cause how much damage...

It doesn't work like that. Human beings don't work like that. They react to a situation like that on instinct. Everything turns into a blur. If I see someone attack my girlfriend I won't be able to control how I react, I certainly won't have the time or the inclination to scientifically work out just how much I can afford to hurt him.

Put it this way. When you attack to injure, you tend to not injure enough. If I deliver a soft blow to the back of the head, trying to knock the knife-wielding looney out, then I'll hold back, and probably only hit him hard enough to make him see red and want to stab me to death. Sod that, I'm going to hit him with everything I have, not to kill, but just to make sure he doesn't kill me.

At the end of the day if he wasn't trespassing in MY home or attacking MY loved ones then he wouldn't be on the end of MY wrath. If he knows beforehand that I can defend my home how I want, then he's less likely to come in (therefore, prevention, as you mentioned earlier) but people with views like yours are the reason this crim thinks he can enter my home, because you won't let me defend it!