Help So... you find out your friend might be a neo nazi...

[nath]

where is the line drawn between what is heinous nath? and how do you punish it. and 50 years down the line if the populations oppinion changes? im using it as an example i hope to god it never does. theres a good reason the thought police doesnt exsist long may it stay that way. example look at the difference in america in 100 years regarding the black population. general oppinion has changed what was once accepted (slavery) no longer is.

i agree with your point of view to a degree but i think there are wider implications to consider, me and you can turn round and say we think neo nazi's are the scum of the earth thats our oppinion and we condemn them for it. but thats as far as it goes. those people have the same right to believe in that evil bastard hitler as christians do in god. we may not like them for it but we cannot take pre emptive action on people simply because they do not agree with the majority oppinion. that is the most dangerous path we as a species could follow because we will end up a nazi state while trying to safeguard against becoming one.

I think you missed the point of my post as that's more or less exactly what I'm saying. People are free to hold their beliefs, and people are free to criticise other peoples beliefs. The law shouldn't factor in to it whatsoever. I was just saying, we shouldn't have to respect peoples opinions, only their right to have opinions.

 

[chipper]

ok m8 sorry i just took it the wrong way plus im not used to people agreeing with me dont feel right

 

[Scouse]

Well, if you want someone to disagree with you (purely to make you feel better):

what was once accepted (slavery) no longer is.

Slavery's rife. It's just that we're all too stupid to see it...

 

[Aoami]

What? Do i HAVE to hate neo-nazis because "everyone"(not) does?

See the irony?

Nazis, christians, buddhas, pipers, candstick makers. All the same as long as they don't bother other people.

You bother someone elses life, then there's a problem, otherwise you can bow down to the holy bacon king of aruba for all i care.

Killings by Neo-Nazi's in Germany were at an all time high last year and they have firm plans to establish a 4th Reich and are getting more and more support, apparently because of the economic crisis. (Not quite sure why but people are saying job loses etc etc are attracting young people to the party (The NPD))

 

[yaruar]

Don't be overly hasty... SS uniforms and associated erotic imagery are often associated with sexual fetishes of a sado-masochistic nature, I have friends who are very much into this however are not aligned with a nazi political stance in the slightest.

However if he is a Neo Nazi then I would probably not associate with him either. Although how you approach him on the sexual fetish thing maybe more awkward than asking him about his political stance.

Personally i'd cut off contact with them, and would hope friends would too, as for people who wear nazi regalia for fetish or shock values, i've yet to meet one who wasn't a twat in real life so again it would be a safe bet for me to cut them out of my life

 

[nath]

Slavery's rife. It's just that we're all too stupid to see it...

Slavery in a metaphorical sense or what?

 

[yaruar]

Slavery in a metaphorical sense or what?

Slavery is alive and well in th modern world
Anti-Slavery - Anti-Slavery - Modern

 

[nath]

Yeah but he was saying that in response to Chippers comment that slavery is not a generally accepted thing any more (in the western world anyway). I got the impression that Scouse was making a more esoteric point

 

[Mey]

I'd never be friends with someone who would think like that in the first place

 

[Shagrat]

me neither, that kind of thinking has no place in the modern world.

 

[nath]

Are you two really confident in saying that you know the absolute inner workings of all your mates minds?

 

[Raven]

Its probably not really fashionable to say so but some of the Nazi ideas where pretty good. Massively outweighed by the batshit crazy schemes and general killing of jews and whatnot though.

As for the swastika, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it, its ancient just bastardised by the Nazis. Maybe you friend is a Hindu? Though the SS armband kind of gives it away

There have been far worse things than that poster considered art before, it could be ironic or some such bollocks?

 

[old.Tohtori]

Raven i've said it a long time.

Without the whole war thing, and the idea that "only one race", Nazi ideals could have made the world a better place.

 

[Tom]

Raven i've said it a long time.

Without the whole war thing, and the idea that "only one race", Nazi ideals could have made the world a better place.

'Could' as in 'never'. Unless you enjoy the idea of living under a dictatorship with the state watching your every move?

 

[nath]

'Could' as in 'never'. Unless you enjoy the idea of living under a dictatorship with the state watching your every move?

Come on Tom. We all know, if you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear.

 

[Mey]

Are you two really confident in saying that you know the absolute inner workings of all your mates minds?

Yep pretty much.

 

[old.Tohtori]

'Could' as in 'never'. Unless you enjoy the idea of living under a dictatorship with the state watching your every move?

Fair enough, my post did miss the word "some" before ideals.

But mixed with modern world, some things might have been quite efficient.

 

[Tom]

Fair enough, my post did miss the word "some" before ideals.

But mixed with modern world, some things might have been quite efficient.

I think you're guilty of romanticising the past. Stop watching films where the Nazis always have clean uniforms and carefully measured steps, and start reading some books that are a little more neutral. The only good thing the Nazis ever did was cause most of Europe to stop infighting.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I think you're guilty of romanticising the past. Stop watching films where the Nazis always have clean uniforms and carefully measured steps, and start reading some books that are a little more neutral. The only good thing the Nazis ever did was cause most of Europe to stop infighting.

What do clean uniforms or some sh*t like that have to do with it

The only people "romanticising" the past are those who can't accept that they had some pretty good ideas, simply due to the bad traits.

If i went by movies alone, i would think the nazis are evil bastards who just want to kill people. The movie industry isn't that known in showing the good ideals or ideas of the nazi.

 

[Tom]

Ok, so could you give me some examples of their good ideas? I'm genuinely interested.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Well, for example the idea of someone being good at something, allowed to work in that field.

If you're good at carpenting, you'd be a carpenter etc.

Also a good side of the very controversial supremacy is the ideal that everyone is equal. Granted, done in a f*cked up manner by them, noone is denying it.

Not to menton, their technical/scientific ideas are quite good, from aviation to basic bombs.

 

[Raven]

The public works program, you work, you eat. Not, you sit around watching daytime TV, you eat.
One of the first war crimes courts (ironic I know)
Massive engineering gains, motorways, jet engines, mass production on a scale never seen before.

The simple fact that within 15 years or so they took a country that was essentially fucked to pretty much taking over Europe in its entirety says a lot about how they managed their economy.

People tend to think of the nazi party only as Hitler, it existed long before he took over and started killing people.

 

[DaGaffer]

Well, for example the idea of someone being good at something, allowed to work in that field.

If you're good at carpenting, you'd be a carpenter etc.

Also a good side of the very controversial supremacy is the ideal that everyone is equal. Granted, done in a f*cked up manner by them, noone is denying it.

Not to menton, their technical/scientific ideas are quite good, from aviation to basic bombs.

Oh my fucking GOD.

The public works program, you work, you eat. Not, you sit around watching daytime TV, you eat.
One of the first war crimes courts (ironic I know)
Massive engineering gains, motorways, jet engines, mass production on a scale never seen before.

The simple fact that within 15 years or so they took a country that was essentially fucked to pretty much taking over Europe in its entirety says a lot about how they managed their economy.

People tend to think of the nazi party only as Hitler, it existed long before he took over and started killing people.

And again. Oh my fucking GOD. What a load of dribbling uninformed absolute bollocks. This is right up there with Mussollini wasn't all bad, he made the trains run on time; both untrue and inaccurate. I don't even know where to start on this; but for a kick off "if you're good a carpentry, you'd be a carpenter"; yeah, whether you liked it or not, because the state decided what you would be "good at", usually based on whack job eugenics theories (which didn't just apply to so-called untermenschen but to the Germans themselves). To take another point, the public works program was exactly the same as Rooseveldt's New Deal, and normal for the era, nothing the Nazis uniquely came up with because of their ideology. And as for "Massive engineering gains, motorways, jet engines, mass production on a scale never seen before"; horseshit. How could it be on a scale never seen before when the American pre-war economy was larger than anything the Germans ever managed, and during and post-war absolutely dwarfed it? As for the much vaunted engineering gains, they built some nifty tanks, developed rocket technology that was about it. Nothing else they made was materially superior to other countries' efforts (and I include Autobahns - invented by the Italians - and submarines in that, the Americans had better ones). Of course they did manage to come up with Zyklon B.

The Nazis are a stain on the soul of humanity and have no redeeming features other than uniforms that look hot if you're into S&M.

 

[TdC]

Spoiler

besides that, I agree with DaGaffer. and Raven, I don't mean to be rude, but the Nazi party was essentially a cult believing in crap out of a scifi book (eee oooh can anyone say scientology?) until Hitler changed it into we kill anyone we don't like / doesn't comply death machine. wake up and smell the corpses tbh.

 

[00dave]

Well, for example the idea of someone being good at something, allowed to work in that field.

If you're good at carpenting, you'd be a carpenter etc.

Whether you wanted to be or not. One day when you grow up you may get tired of your job and want to try something else.

Also a good side of the very controversial supremacy is the ideal that everyone is equal. Granted, done in a f*cked up manner by them, noone is denying it.

At what point did the nazis think everyone was equal, obviously the millions of people gased, shot or bombed were less equal were they? They sent white German men to prison for entering mixed race relationships. I was at the UN headquarters just last week I saw the documents. They also sterilised or killed people with mental problems, so you'd have been in trouble.

Not to menton, their technical/scientific ideas are quite good, from aviation to basic bombs.

War = technical/ scientific advancement. It's a well known fact, most medical techniques are born on the battlefield and most inventions are made or improved for use in war.

The public works program, you work, you eat. Not, you sit around watching daytime TV, you eat.

I see what you're getting at but it was different times back then, you can't compare people today with people back then, poor people didn't even have tv, they worked for pretty much everything.

One of the first war crimes courts (ironic I know)

By ironic do you mean ineffective and therefore irrelevant?

Massive engineering gains, motorways, jet engines, mass production on a scale never seen before.

All products of war I'm afraid, nothing to do with the nazi party at all, look at the Soviet production scale during WW2 astonishing figures, or America, or ours considering our size and under constant attack.

The simple fact that within 15 years or so they took a country that was essentially fucked to pretty much taking over Europe in its entirety says a lot about how they managed their economy.

Not difficult to recover an economy when you have no morales, murder the handicapped to cut spending, seize properties and assets from those who don't do as they're told and generally steal from the wealthy bank owners beause they were a certain religion. Also inspiring a defeated nation to fight for your cause with promises of a return to glory isn't difficult when there is no free press and propaganda is the order of the day.

People tend to think of the nazi party only as Hitler, it existed long before he took over and started killing people.

National socialist party and you're right there were a few of them, but the successful one we know as the nazis was pretty much all Hitler.

 

[Raven]

All three of you are completely missing the point

I did not say they were nice people and I guess I will have to quote as you clearly didn't read the damn thread, just skipped to the last post.

Its probably not really fashionable to say so but some of the Nazi ideas where pretty good. Massively outweighed by the batshit crazy schemes and general killing of jews and whatnot though.

Ok, so could you give me some examples of their good ideas? I'm genuinely interested.

Oh my fucking GOD.<snip>

Yes the American economy was bigger but they hadn't just been fucked in WW1 and then been tied down under the treaty of Versaille. They had a bit of a head start on things. I am quite aware what Nazism was based on, all I said was not every idea they came up with was a bad one.

Its like saying all Porsche are crap because they made the Cayenne.

I quite agree the world would be a better place if they had never existed but to say everything they did and thought about was evil shows ignorance.

 

[DaGaffer]

All three of you are completely missing the point

I did not say they were nice people and I guess I will have to quote as you clearly didn't read the damn thread, just skipped to the last post.

Yes the American economy was bigger but they hadn't just been fucked in WW1 and then been tied down under the treaty of Versaille. They had a bit of a head start on things. I am quite aware what Nazism was based on, all I said was not every idea they came up with was a bad one.

Its like saying all Porsche are crap because they made the Cayenne.

I quite agree the world would be a better place if they had never existed but to say everything they did and thought about was evil shows ignorance.

The outcome of everything they did and thought was evil; and as I pointed out, most of the so-called "good ideas" weren't even Nazi ideas anyway. Oh, and the Americans went through the Great Depression which knocked their economy on its arse easily as thoroughly as any problems the Germans had; Versailles was always the excuse Hitler made for Germany's woes (and the jews of course), but the Weimar republic had already pulled Germany out of the post-WWI economic collapse by the time Hitler rose to power, why do you think the Nazis were nowhere near power through the twenties? It was (for Germany) the second economic shock - the Wall Street Crash, which gave the Nazis their chance. Seriously, some of the public works the Nazis left behind are about the only "good" result of the thousand year reich, (there's even an argument to say that Von Braun style rocketry was the wrong way to get into space) but as I said before, even the public works idea was copied from the New Deal (the Nazis got Autobahns, the Americans got the Hoover Dam).

There's a terribly revisionist idea rearing its head lately, the concept of the "Good Nazi", and its both dangerous and wrong.

 

[Raven]

But what the hell have the Americans got to do with it? Correct me if I am wrong but I don't see anyone saying the Americans didn't do it too? Maybe I need to put words in peoples mouths to see it? Seems the order of the day.

Its not revisionist to say that the Nazis did some good things amongst all the madness. If it is then Non-revisionists or whatever you want to call them are no better than the nazis. Nobody is saying that the nazis didn't do terrible evil things so you can kindly get off your high horse about that, all I am saying is some (and to make it absolutely clear) not all their ideas where bad ones.

Slightly related but do you also think that all Muslims are scummers because a few of them tend to blow shit up? Yes I know its different, one is a religious movement the other a political one (though its hard to tell the difference these days)

and to fuck with your closing line.

There's a terribly closed mind rearing its head lately, the concept of the "do as your told", and its both dangerous and wrong.

 

[00dave]

There's a terribly closed mind rearing its head lately, the concept of the "do as your told", and its both dangerous and wrong.

So you're arguing the case of the nazis because you don't like being told that they were evil and you should hate them?

Nazis = bad, no ifs, no ands, no buts.

Put it this way, every good idea they had was only made possible because of their bad ideas or had hidden motive behind them.

 

[DaGaffer]

But what the hell have the Americans got to do with it? Correct me if I am wrong but I don't see anyone saying the Americans didn't do it too? Maybe I need to put words in peoples mouths to see it? Seems the order of the day.

Its not revisionist to say that the Nazis did some good things amongst all the madness. If it is then Non-revisionists or whatever you want to call them are no better than the nazis. Nobody is saying that the nazis didn't do terrible evil things so you can kindly get off your high horse about that, all I am saying is some (and to make it absolutely clear) not all their ideas where bad ones.

Actually, yes, all their ideas were bad ones. And by that I mean all their ideas that can be ascribed to Nazi philosophy. The reason for using the example of America and the New Deal is because all the stuff about social welfare and public works programmes that you claim were Nazi plus points weren't Nazi ideas. All the "good" things the Nazis did weren't because they were Nazis. All the bad things were because they were Nazis.

Slightly related but do you also think that all Muslims are scummers because a few of them tend to blow shit up? Yes I know its different, one is a religious movement the other a political one (though its hard to tell the difference these days)

Of course not, in exactly the same way that I don't think all Germans sent Jews to the gas chambers. However, that's not to say that most Germans weren't complicit in allowing the Nazis to do what they did, and you can make a similar argument for certain groups of Muslims.

and to fuck with your closing line.

There's a terribly closed mind rearing its head lately, the concept of the "do as your told", and its both dangerous and wrong.

And you don't see the irony of defending Naziism on that basis? And at what point did I say "do as your told". I said "you're wrong".