Impressed So Starcraft 2...

old.Tohtori

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Just finished it on Brutal, amazing game very worth the wait :) cannot wait for the protoss campaign.

Usually i'd say "Well that's a short f*cking campaign" since the game just went out, but knowing your speed it seems like it's worth every penny :D
 

BloodOmen

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Usually i'd say "Well that's a short f*cking campaign" since the game just went out, but knowing your speed it seems like it's worth every penny :D

I'd have been done sooner but some of the missions on brutal are quite mad :p
 

mooSe_

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6nFVdpd.jpg
 

Aada

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Am playing Zerg atm got 10 wins yay :)

Getting my macro game down.
 

mooSe_

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Gotta be at work tomorrow T_T Can't go to bed until this is over.
 

ileks

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Moose could I practice some forge fast expansion builds against you at some point? My old one base Stargate expand method against Zerg isn't working, I don't do enough damage with my pheonixes.
 

Aada

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How on earth do i stop Protoss mid-late game? i was chucking units after units at this guy and he was still using the same units from 30mins ago. Just kept popping up the shield and nothing i could do.
 

pikeh

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What race you play?

terran the answer is ghosts.


nm, saw you play zerg (boo!)
 

Aada

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learned to beat protoss early or it's impossible such a fucking op race.
 

Aada

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No pun intended but I just zerg the posh bastards right from the go.
 

Aada

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me and one other guy keep switching between 1st and 2nd on bronze league means nothing i know but for means i'm better than what i was last week.
 

ileks

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People seem much better than when I quit playing WoL. That or I'm far worse. Probably a combination of both.

Aada I don't think any race is overpowered. Certainly not at the lower levels anyway. If they go for mass gateway units you get Hydralisks. If they have Collosus you want Corruptors and then get Broodlords when you can.

I'm absolutely shit at fast expanding. I always die to mass roaches.
 

Aada

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I'm learning from dignitasapollo on his youtube videos, really cool videos to watch and i like his commentary too :)
 

Madmaxx

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I'm learning from dignitasapollo on his youtube videos, really cool videos to watch and i like his commentary too :)

I don't even play SC2 right now and I like his videos :p
 

Aada

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Just been promoted to silver, i'm so not ready for it yet ;/ expecting to get reamed.
 

ileks

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I have about 60% win rate against protoss & Terran but only 30% against Zerg :(
 

mooSe_

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Moose could I practice some forge fast expansion builds against you at some point? My old one base Stargate expand method against Zerg isn't working, I don't do enough damage with my pheonixes.

Sure thing. 1 gate expand is quite popular at the moment too. Forge expands give you a better economy but later tech so you can't really put on pressure early. 1 gate expand gives you more early options aggression-wise which prevents zerg from going fast 3 hatch and up to 60 drones before you can do anything (which happens vs forge expand). Both are common though. 1 base stargate does sound a bit dated unless its like a proxy oracle build; but that's gimmicky as hell.

How on earth do i stop Protoss mid-late game? i was chucking units after units at this guy and he was still using the same units from 30mins ago. Just kept popping up the shield and nothing i could do.

If protoss manages to get the army composition he wants then he should usually have the stronger, more cost effective army in a straight up fight but as zerg you have the advantage of being able to expand all over the map and also being able to remake your armies super quickly. The exact thing you need to do depends on what unit composition he has obviously so it's hard to say what you need to make without knowing more. Also make sure you are remembering to get upgrades from the evolution chamber; it makes a huge difference to how cost effective your units are if you end up behind or ahead in upgrades.

Protoss armies work well in when their units are in combination with each other but if you break down one part of the composition then you can usually overwhelm the rest of it. For example immortal/sentry based armies trash low tech zerg armies, but as soon as he runs out of forcefields you can just roll over him easily even though his army 'counters' yours. If he has loads of colossus and you have a big economy you can make a shitload of corruptors, fly in and suicide them all to kill the colossus then immediately remax on like hydras or something. It won't technically be cost effective but it takes him so long to rebuild all those colossus whereas in contrast you can make all your units at once (assuming you have enough larvae).

After a while you do need to switch into higher tech units as well. Compositions based on lings or roach hydra just stop doing anything at all vs the protoss army after a certain point. Broodlords, swarmhosts and vipers all allow you to throw out free units which means you can fight a lot more cost effectively vs protoss armies. The classic zerg lategame army is broodlord/infestor. You make a bunch of broodlords (usually only like 6 at first but as you throw away your lower tech units you want to build up your count as high as possible) and they outrange everything protoss has on the ground; you use the infestors to fungal growth anything that tries to come in range so they get stuck. When you attack you throw down a load of infested terrans and the protoss player ends up trading lots of his army or base just to kill broodlings and infested terrans which cost you nothing at all. This is a strategy from WoL which is a bit outdated now since voidrays are stronger, infested terrans are weaker and protoss has the tempest now which outranges anything you have. It's still sort of viable though if you make a bunch of corruptors to try to deal with tempests and try to fungal the voidrays whenever they stack up.

Vipers are also a really great support unit for making pretty much any army you make more effective. For example if you're playing roach hydra in the mid game and he gets like 3+ colossus out in addition to gateway units then you pretty much won't do anything with your army. You can use the vipers abduct spell to just yoink all the colossus into range and focus them down and suddenly your army is way stronger than his (if you don't have hive yet then you have to go corruptors instead in this situation to deal with colossus).

Another composition I've been liking is mass swarm host with either hydras or queens supporting at first and corruptors later. It works similar to the broodlord infestor in that the swarmhosts outrange everything and your enemy ends up fighting free units all the time so anything you kill at all is cost effective. You can also go in with your hydra army behind a wave of locusts that the swarm hosts spat out and use them as a meatshield, when the locusts die you retreat with the hydras and come back again when more spawn.

It's still pretty early days in HotS so it's all quite up in the air with regards to what the best way to play is. in ZvP I've been having success with either: roach/hydra and then adding corruptor or viper; or hydra/swarm host and then going corruptor.

Just been promoted to silver, i'm so not ready for it yet ;/ expecting to get reamed.

Grats :p Just try to focus on playing solid and you'll do okay.
 

Aada

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Sure thing. 1 gate expand is quite popular at the moment too. Forge expands give you a better economy but later tech so you can't really put on pressure early. 1 gate expand gives you more early options aggression-wise which prevents zerg from going fast 3 hatch and up to 60 drones before you can do anything (which happens vs forge expand). Both are common though. 1 base stargate does sound a bit dated unless its like a proxy oracle build; but that's gimmicky as hell.



If protoss manages to get the army composition he wants then he should usually have the stronger, more cost effective army in a straight up fight but as zerg you have the advantage of being able to expand all over the map and also being able to remake your armies super quickly. The exact thing you need to do depends on what unit composition he has obviously so it's hard to say what you need to make without knowing more. Also make sure you are remembering to get upgrades from the evolution chamber; it makes a huge difference to how cost effective your units are if you end up behind or ahead in upgrades.

Protoss armies work well in when their units are in combination with each other but if you break down one part of the composition then you can usually overwhelm the rest of it. For example immortal/sentry based armies trash low tech zerg armies, but as soon as he runs out of forcefields you can just roll over him easily even though his army 'counters' yours. If he has loads of colossus and you have a big economy you can make a shitload of corruptors, fly in and suicide them all to kill the colossus then immediately remax on like hydras or something. It won't technically be cost effective but it takes him so long to rebuild all those colossus whereas in contrast you can make all your units at once (assuming you have enough larvae).

After a while you do need to switch into higher tech units as well. Compositions based on lings or roach hydra just stop doing anything at all vs the protoss army after a certain point. Broodlords, swarmhosts and vipers all allow you to throw out free units which means you can fight a lot more cost effectively vs protoss armies. The classic zerg lategame army is broodlord/infestor. You make a bunch of broodlords (usually only like 6 at first but as you throw away your lower tech units you want to build up your count as high as possible) and they outrange everything protoss has on the ground; you use the infestors to fungal growth anything that tries to come in range so they get stuck. When you attack you throw down a load of infested terrans and the protoss player ends up trading lots of his army or base just to kill broodlings and infested terrans which cost you nothing at all. This is a strategy from WoL which is a bit outdated now since voidrays are stronger, infested terrans are weaker and protoss has the tempest now which outranges anything you have. It's still sort of viable though if you make a bunch of corruptors to try to deal with tempests and try to fungal the voidrays whenever they stack up.

Vipers are also a really great support unit for making pretty much any army you make more effective. For example if you're playing roach hydra in the mid game and he gets like 3+ colossus out in addition to gateway units then you pretty much won't do anything with your army. You can use the vipers abduct spell to just yoink all the colossus into range and focus them down and suddenly your army is way stronger than his (if you don't have hive yet then you have to go corruptors instead in this situation to deal with colossus).

Another composition I've been liking is mass swarm host with either hydras or queens supporting at first and corruptors later. It works similar to the broodlord infestor in that the swarmhosts outrange everything and your enemy ends up fighting free units all the time so anything you kill at all is cost effective. You can also go in with your hydra army behind a wave of locusts that the swarm hosts spat out and use them as a meatshield, when the locusts die you retreat with the hydras and come back again when more spawn.

It's still pretty early days in HotS so it's all quite up in the air with regards to what the best way to play is. in ZvP I've been having success with either: roach/hydra and then adding corruptor or viper; or hydra/swarm host and then going corruptor.



Grats :p Just try to focus on playing solid and you'll do okay.

Cheers for the insight, I'm good at early/mid game but late game is my problem as i get confused as to what units to bring out mainly because of the fact i haven't had many games that run into late game units they are usually over by the 15min mark.

Tried Swarmhosts a few times and the units they throw out just seem to get battered before they can actually do anything but i have only had 3 of these units out how many do i need to make them effective?

There's a lot i need to learn ive only been playing MP just under 2 weeks so i'm new still :)

Also ZvZ those little bastards who do a 6 pool destroy me is it best to do a 6 pool everytime vs a Z? because by the time i've scouted his base at 12 supply he's already built up his pool and making lings.
 

mooSe_

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Cheers for the insight, I'm good at early/mid game but late game is my problem as i get confused as to what units to bring out mainly because of the fact i haven't had many games that run into late game units they are usually over by the 15min mark.

Tried Swarmhosts a few times and the units they throw out just seem to get battered before they can actually do anything but i have only had 3 of these units out how many do i need to make them effective?

There's a lot i need to learn ive only been playing MP just under 2 weeks so i'm new still :)

Also ZvZ those little bastards who do a 6 pool destroy me is it best to do a 6 pool everytime vs a Z? because by the time i've scouted his base at 12 supply he's already built up his pool and making lings.

Yeah you'll get the hang of it if once you've had more experience. Maybe it's best to try playing a more passive style for a little while so you can try to force games a bit longer so you get more late game experience. By passive I don't mean sitting around doing nothing: I mean focusing on getting ahead in economy and defending any pushes he throws at you then pushing out with a stronger late game army. Just play whatever style you want though; as long as you can win some of the time they're all valid.

I've found that swarm hosts are really good in ZvP especially in large numbers (I wouldn't make them vs terran though unless he's going full mech). In some situations they can be effective even with only like 5 swarmhosts but I like to go up to like 16 of them :p Basically I get to a fairly good economy (usually 3 base but sometimes 2 base and drone up my 3rd once I've already started producing them (there are also some 2 base all in swarm host builds but I don't use those much)) and then put all my resources into swarmhosts and upgrades for swarmhosts (ranged and armour at evo and the locust upgrade at infestation pit). The exception to this is if he goes stargate I need to invest in some anti air so I just get enough hydras in order to scare off his air units and go right back to swarm hosts (queens can also work if you have good creep spread). Then you get out on the map in front of his base with your swarmhosts and burrow them and rally to his base. Once you've fired a round of locusts, unburrow again and walk back. This means that even if he kills them easily he can't just walk out and kill all your dudes. Every time you have another round of locusts ready you just burrow, fire, unburrow and walk back. If he does move out then fire another round of locusts while continuing to run away. I just keep doing this to keep him in his base, slowly wear him down while building up a stronger army at the same time. His best options for dealing with it are colossus and voidrays. If he's making lots of voidrays then I make a load of hydras and if he's making mostly colossus I make corruptors. I try to keep an eye on what he's doing so I have the right unit composition should he move out and try to fight my swarm host army.

Remember that locusts are free, so if all they do is kill 1 zealot then that's still a good trade as long as he can't attack your swarm hosts. Protoss' best bet is to get an overwhelming amount of splash damage (usually colossus since templars with storm cost energy every time to deal with free locusts) or try to overpower your anti air so the swarm hosts are vulnerable. If he doesn't go air or colossus or storm then you can basically just sit there all day and eventually win the game.

Standard openings in ZvZ at a higher level are 15 hatch > 16 pool, 15 pool > 16 hatch and 9 or 10 pool > 16 hatch. You don't need to get a pool as early as him to counter an early pool, but if you get it too late then you will die to early lings. My standard safe opening on ladder is 15 pool then 16 hatch. If he goes 6 pool then he will have lings in my base before my pool is done, but i have 16 drones at this point whereas he only has 7 at the most. I don't drone scout, but just send first overlord right to his natural. If he goes 6 pool then I will see lings running out of his base towards me at about the time I have 16 drones and am getting ready to expand. Rather than expanding I just keep all my drones mining so I save up some minerals, make an overlord and start saving larvae. When the lings get in my base I pull all my drones off mining to fight his lings. 16 drones beats 6 lings so he has to wait and stall for time for his extra lings to catch up before engaging. If he tries to fight too early I surround his lings and kill them all: even if I lose like 8 drones I'm still ahead. If he stalls for time and waits for his own lings to turn up then my pool will finish and my own zerglings will turn up (and eventually a queen).

As soon as your own lings are out the game is basically over. Even if he has more lings than you you can just go back to mining and if he tries to attack pull all your drones and lings to fight. If he goes back home then you just take gas, expand and win the game with you far stronger economy. If you pool on 9 or 10 then you have the option of being aggressive with your first lings if he does a greedy opening (hatch first) and if he goes 6 pool then you should be able to have lings out in time to defend a 6 pool. The disadvantage is if you are against a player going 15 pool like me then your lings arent early enough to do damage before my lings come out and you have less drones than me. Going hatch first will get you an advantage over a player going 14 or 15 pool but will probably be an instant loss vs a player doing any pool 10 or earlier. While you have lots of drones, it just takes so long for your pool to finish that he can stall for time to get enough lings and then just kill you before you have any out.

Attempt at short answer turns into another starcraft essay :rolleyes:

Oh also I can probably provide replays showing how to defend 6 pool or whatever else if you want to see what it looks like
 

Aada

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Thanks, I just need to get my game down keep playing im on about 50/99 played so 50/50.

Keep going i guess.
 

ileks

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Sure thing. 1 gate expand is quite popular at the moment too. Forge expands give you a better economy but later tech so you can't really put on pressure early. 1 gate expand gives you more early options aggression-wise which prevents zerg from going fast 3 hatch and up to 60 drones before you can do anything (which happens vs forge expand). Both are common though. 1 base stargate does sound a bit dated unless its like a proxy oracle build; but that's gimmicky as hell.

Started going 1 gate FE rather than the forge fast expand. It's amazing hoe much damage you can do with those early gateway units even if you invest in a nexus.

I've finally got my builds for each race now. 3 gate expand into mass voidrays against Protoss, stargate Oracle harass against terran and 1 gate FE against Zerg. I like to be aggressive early on to put people off.

When I switched to these new strategies I lost about 35 games in a row :p Now I've got to grips with things I've managed to get to the top of my platinum league. Unfortunately I have so much work to do now I probably won't log in again for a couple of months :(
 

Madmaxx

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haha I tried the started version again just now as I finally got a friend to try it to, we ended up doing the 2vs AI mode which was pretty fun. Will try and get into it more as I've never done RTS before this game, first map we ended taking over the map with 1,000,000 marines which was funny; I think I actually got a lag spike when he said "I got re-inforcements coming lol"
 

ileks

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Decided to watch some Korean blokes stream. It was so quick it actually gave me a bit of a headache! Why do they repeatedly flick boxes around their probes?!

BTW, anyone fancy some 2v2s or something?
 

ECA

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Decided to watch some Korean blokes stream. It was so quick it actually gave me a bit of a headache! Why do they repeatedly flick boxes around their probes?!

Just something to spam and practice boxing while there isn't anything else to do.
 

mooSe_

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It helps to warm up if its your first few games of the day too. If you're already spamming at 300 APM then its easier to start reacting to things quickly when the game suddenly develops into something more complicated. Or at least I find that to be the case. Also helps me to get into a rhythm for the early game so I hit all my drones on time and stuff. I just do it out of habit at this point though; it takes a conscious effort not to be spamming if there's nothing more important to do. It's pretty common I think, although not everyone does it. Im sure some nubs just do it to try to artificially inflate their APM too.
 

ileks

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Just found out I've been playing on the US servers the whole bloody time! I wondered why I couldn't find the FH group.

I bought the CD key from one of those cheap websites, they must have sold me a US copy.
 

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