Shouldn't reavers have Det?

[svartmetall]

Originally posted by old.windforce
End regen, emergency resses and resist buff on engaging combat is all they should do

What, you mean like those nifty hybrid things that Savages can't do?

 

[chretien]

When 7 other people benefit from your buffs, then it's effectively more powerful, by quite a big margin. Presumably I don't need to explain how 8 x 7.5 > 1 x 25.

When was the last time you were in a group with 7 melee characters?

Splitting the hair kind of fine there, aren't we?

Not really, a buff from a chant isn't an always on effect. If I get a buff from another character it will last until one of us dies, the duration expires or one of us drops it. My chants last until I change to a different chant - something I do 4 times every 6 seconds on average, generally meaning that any three of the four I'm using are active at any given time.

No, what I'm talking about is the fact that all we do - ALL we do - is hit people. With bits of metal. The sum total of our effect on other players in the game, whether friend or enemy, is that we hit the enemy with bits of metal.

And that's precisely what a lack of utility means. Compare a Savage to another light tank - Mercs or BMs or Zerks. Disregarding abilities that are on long timers (dirty tricks and vendo) all they do is hit things. RAs aside they have no way to give themselves a sudden advantage or boost their abilities. Savages do, they can spam a range of insta buffs which elevate their effectiveness considerably. However you want to colour it that is a spell-like ability to enhance their prowess. Classes that can do this are called Hybrids.

oh and

They arent hybrids, savages are pure tanks.

They don't have any ranged attacks, apart from the Taunt.

Neither do Paladins but I wouldn't dream of suggesting they aren't hybrids.

 

[svartmetall]

Originally posted by Solarius
The reason Tanks need Det (according to Mythic) is because the multiple forms of CC in the game affect Tanks more than the other classes. (ofc, the reason Hybrids didn't get Det was because they had a way to interupt CC, mostly instacast spells or abilities that could interrupt the caster of the CC, not much use against insta cc, but more than Tanks got)

Yep, that's how I heard it too. My first experiences of RvR were, without exception, run out to somewhere in the frontier, get meezed/stunned/rooted at range by some caster, die helplessly. No fun and no point (it completely put me off RvR for months), and clearly something needed to be done about that sort of thing...

The problem with Det though, is that it reduces all kinds of CC. So, whereas a Champion or a Thane can still do SOMETHING when rooted, when a tank has less options, they're pretty screwed when stunned or mezzed, and the tanks are not. Well, not for long, anyway.

IMO there are a number of ways to change this.

Firstly, they could set Mez and Stun to be unaffected by Det, but remove all forms of instacasting Stun and Mez from the game, make them castable only. This would be unpopular with Bards, Healers, Minstrals and Tanks. since the first three would lose a very powerful ability, and the tanks because if they get stunned or mezzed, they're in the same boat as everyone else.
Or, they could remove Mez and Stun, leaving the only CC as Root and Snare, but this would mean Mages would still be able to operate if CCd, tanks would have a decrease in overall utility due to the effects of Root and Snare on them (even Det reduced), and Hybrids would still be the ultimate loser, having limited (yes, hybrid spells are not much!) utility for the full duration of the root.
Or they could remove or reduce Det

Neither of these are going to please everyone. Personally, I wouldn't like to be whomever has to ultimatly make this decision, if it's being considered at all.

Agreed. Balance is a very elusive thing.

Edit:- Replying to Svart, rather than a new post

Champs are on hybrid WS tables too, I'm not sure if they're as low as Thanes are reported to be, I've never really looked into it tbh, but I tend to miss a lot too on anything above yellow con - thats with 50LW

OK, thanks for the info.

 

[Waok]

Originally posted by old.windforce
every pala that heals, af chants or damage add in an rvr group is a BAAAD pala. End regen, emergency resses and resist buff on engaging combat is all they should do

Paladin damage sucks bigtime, they are 90% support

Paladins hit quite well imo, obviously not outstanding, but still very good damage for a class you describe as support.

Emergency rezze's, well yes, but shoudlnt really happen if the paladin is doing his job, and keeping support classes alive.

Resist buffs.. lol.. piss a cleric off.. good

 

[Solarius]

Heh mythic really are their own worst enemy!

Ok, I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this, but could someone who plays the class verify?

Whats the recast timer of the savage taunt? And whats the cast time?

According to Classes of Camelot and Catecombs it's 0s cast 30s recast. According to the Herald spell library, it's 2s cast 0s recast. I'm guessing the former is correct, but Mythic have insisted in the past that the Delve infomation on a spell is linked directly to the Herald library (or the other way round)

 

[Waok]

Reavers have their own DPS buff (highest in game).
Reavers have their own Lifedrain Proc.
Reavers have AOE Debuffs.
Reavers have PBAOE Wrack for de-stealthing and DD.
Reavers have Slam + Levi.
Reavers have ranged DD Lifetap and DOT.




Paladins have Group Endurance Regeneration.
Paladins have Group Health Regeneration.
Paladins have Group DPS Buff.
Paladins have Group AF Buff.
Paladins have Self AF Buff.
Paladins have Tuant.
Paladins have Slam, Protect, Guard, Plate Armor.

THIS IS WHY THEY ARE HYBRIDS.

Giving these classes det would over power them.

They are both overpowerd in what they do, Paladins have lots of abilities for groups.. Reavers are alot more solo orientated..

SAVAGES ARE PURE TANKS.

FOAD FGS.. STOP WHINGING

 

[svartmetall]

Originally posted by chretien
And that's precisely what a lack of utility means. Compare a Savage to another light tank - Mercs or BMs or Zerks. Disregarding abilities that are on long timers (dirty tricks and vendo) all they do is hit things.

Of course, that's why they're tanks, too, just like Savages. Who just hit people. Even when using DT/Triple Wield/Vendo, all Zerks/Mercs/BMs do is hit people. You forgot to quote the part where I said I had no problem with what you define as a "lack of utility" on the part of Savages. Since a Savage is a tank, claiming that we all we do is hit people is a "lack of utility" is a bit like claiming a carnivore's eating meat is a "lack of variety".
Hitting people is all we're for.

RAs aside they have no way to give themselves a sudden advantage or boost their abilities. Savages do, they can spam a range of insta buffs which elevate their effectiveness considerably. However you want to colour it that is a spell-like ability to enhance their prowess. Classes that can do this are called Hybrids.

A "spell-like ability to enhance their prowess"...? OK, so Heros and Berserkers are hybrids, then, by that logic. Timers are irrelevant if you want to class anything self-boosting as some sort of class-defining characteristic. I'm not trying to "colour" anything, you're the one who insist on calling Savagery selfbuffs "spells" when even Mythic don't call them that.
And I'm surprised to see you, who I know to have spoken out against cookie-cutter definitions of classes (both within and across Realms), saying now that classes should be pigeonholed rigidly. Which is precisely what you're doing here. What is your concern with being so insistent that Savages are not tanks, anyway?

 

[svartmetall]

Originally posted by Waok
Paladins hit quite well imo, obviously not outstanding, but still very good damage for a class you describe as support.

And I know that Chretien can solo reds unbuffed with almost all HPs left. I don't know a Savage that can do that.

 

[old.Hardbein]

Savages have Abilities.
Hybrids have Spells.

Thats why all Savage abilities r listed together with Sprint and other RAs. Savages have nothing under their inventory-spelllist.

 

[Vell]

Me thinks someone needs to be reminded of what defines a Tank, a Hybrid, and a Caster.


A tank is a class which has at least one weapon spec line but no power bar.

A hybrid is a class which has both at least one weapon spec line and a power bar.

A caster is a class which does not have a weapon spec line.


That is how it was expained by Sanya when SC/Alc came out, and people started crying because they wanted their class to have skill XXX.


Hence, Savages are tanks.

 

[old.twigbob]

every pala that heals, af chants or damage add in an rvr group is a BAAAD pala.

quite the opposite, any paladin who doesnt twist 3/4 of his chants is a bad pally.

I think we are probably the most fortunate out of all the hybrid classes, our 10 pt Pbaoe LifeTap isnt the greatest RA, but its probably the best RA hybrids have.

id say faith heal is better

 

[old.windforce]

Originally posted by Waok

Resist buffs.. lol.. piss a cleric off.. good

the mixed song (Soul shield, level 44 energy, body and spirit chant) stacks with cleric resist buff

 

[-gama-]

Originally posted by chretien
top damage add for a paladin is 7.5dps, savages get 25dps, mine affects a group which is why it's less powerful

Savage's 'damage add' is 25% NOT 25DPS, so with a 16.5 dps weapon, thats... 4.125DPS

7.5x8 > 4.125

 

[chretien]

Originally posted by svartmetall
A "spell-like ability to enhance their prowess"...? OK, so Heros and Berserkers are hybrids, then, by that logic. Timers are irrelevant if you want to class anything self-boosting as some sort of class-defining characteristic. I'm not trying to "colour" anything, you're the one who insist on calling Savagery selfbuffs "spells" when even Mythic don't call them that.
And I'm surprised to see you, who I know to have spoken out against cookie-cutter definitions of classes (both within and across Realms), saying now that classes should be pigeonholed rigidly. Which is precisely what you're doing here. What is your concern with being so insistent that Savages are not tanks, anyway?

I did say disrgarding effects on long timers. Yes, vendo/dt/tw give those classes a boost but it's not something they can call upon in every fight. I'm only considering abilities that are always available to the class and can be used repeatedly. May be a little narrow I'll admit but if Savages got a 'Savage' ability that gave them a vast improvement for 20 secs on a 30 minute timer (Svart Smash!!) instead of the self buffs, I'd consider them in the same class as the other light tanks.
This isn't a 'Savages are overpowered' whinge, I'm not going to argue that old chestnut again as it's been done to death in every other thread ever created, I'm just arguing against the perception that a lack of utility precludes a hybrid class and that Savages, as they have a magic-like ability are hybrids. If they had no way to boost their effectiveness I'd agree that they were pure tanks and should get tank WS and tank RAs in the same way as light tanks, as they can be much more powerful than these light tanks however it seems a little unfair to give them that.

And I know that Chretien can solo reds unbuffed with almost all HPs left. I don't know a Savage that can do that

This is true but it's not so much a testament to my damage dealing, more the fact that I can stay alive for long enough. Generally things I solo tend to die of old age before I deal enough damage to kill them.

 

[old.windforce]

Originally posted by Vell
Me thinks someone needs to be reminded of what defines a Tank, a Hybrid, and a Caster.


A tank is a class which has at least one weapon spec line but no power bar.

A hybrid is a class which has both at least one weapon spec line and a power bar.

A caster is a class which does not have a weapon spec line.


That is how it was expained by Sanya when SC/Alc came out, and people started crying because they wanted their class to have skill XXX.


Hence, Savages are tanks.

hmmm makes sense

 

[bigchief]

Originally posted by Solarius
Heh mythic really are their own worst enemy!

Ok, I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this, but could someone who plays the class verify?

Whats the recast timer of the savage taunt? And whats the cast time?

According to Classes of Camelot and Catecombs it's 0s cast 30s recast. According to the Herald spell library, it's 2s cast 0s recast. I'm guessing the former is correct, but Mythic have insisted in the past that the Delve infomation on a spell is linked directly to the Herald library (or the other way round)

Until 1.65 0s cast 30s recast

As of 1.65+ they changed to 2s cast 0s recast

it was seen as a 'compromise' so they could keep pure tank ra's/skills/tables


Btw this thread was about Reavers

Think theres been enough about savages hasnt there?

Back on topic pls imo

 

[scarffs]

Stop whining about savages, they are tanks because they have no power bar and nothing is listed as spells, period.

Determination is a very simple issue, give it only to Hero, Warrior and Armsman. This puts the group before the choice of heavy damage at the risk of full duration cc or lesser damage with det.
It's really simple, tbh.

And yes , I have a savage, and yes remove determination from savages and from zerkers, blademasters, mercenaries.

This wil solve a massive amount of grouping problems.

Or maybe grant det 1 or 2 to some classes ( maybe at higher pts cost ) who really need it.

 

[svartmetall]

Back to Reavers.

 

[uglymug]

nonono..i think my BD should get det too!

see, he's a melee class with a few spells that mostly effect himself, or indeed his pets..oh and that DA buff on a timer

BD's are hybrids!?!

 

[amazingsteve]

Yes Det. is overpowered. But removing isn´t an option either. Mages were too uber back in the times there wasn´t det. yet, I´m a mage and even i admit it but right now tanks with determination are making mages useless in RvR. Mythic needs to have a look at this. Best suggestion would be to give mercs/BMs/Savages Det 1/2 max, and pure tanks the entire lot if they want.

 

[old.Elfslayer]

Det should be removed full stop. Mezz/stun/root durations are pretty low any way, I tend to find. I can no longer see any reason why "pure tanks" or any other class for that matter require it. It is now almost impossible for most casters to kill a tank at range, and once in range your tank food. If you find your are dieing lots, I would suggest looking at the way you play rather than crying about it. After all thats where det came from. One thing I would do tho is to make all forms of cc (ie stun) breakable on being hit by magic or a weapon, there is no way you should have to stand there imbilised completely then some one just continues to cast on you, while you have no way of retaliation.

 

[Shike]

Only Heroes, Armsmen and Warriors should have determination in its form it is now and it should be accompanied by the shieldspecc imo.

One big thing many tanks whined about back in the golden days for casters was that they stood mezzed and couldnt guard their realmmates as a tank should be able to, shieldspecc every 10th specc for the "real" tanks should grant determination of one level and end at 50 in determination 5. Voila, shieldtanks can guard their realmmates from loose tanks and still dont cause too much damage to be considered overpowered. Lower duration on mez to half of what it is atm in RVR and it should be sorted. Weaponstuns should be affected by resists aswell.

This Dark Age of Tankalot we have now.. is just boring tbh. Rarely see hybrids out and casters do not work out too well in small teams and it sucks totally. Determination have killed far too many classes as it is and should not be given to any more classes.

just my 2€

 

[shanks]

Mana bar on none stealther with weapon spec = hybride

Why mythic decided to give savages a taunt shout is beyond me though. However it's rendered pretty much useless in rvr in the incoming nerfs by making it 2 or so secs cast. Making it more what I think it was meant to be from the beginng, a way to pull PvE.

To get back to the point, no reavers should not get determination more then other hybrides should. It's unfortunate that mythic decided to give mid a light tank as opposed to a thane/champion like hybrid for albs and some sort of wierd caster/hybride for hibs.

Interesting point though, if only "true tanks" were to get determination. But I dont think that's a solution to the melee tilted game were playing today. Determination needs to be brought down a few notches though as it really is too powerfull atm.

 

[Straef]

giving det to all classes would rape mezzing classes. det for tanks only imo

 

[klavrynd]

the can have det if their spells start cosing life instead of mana, or if they ditch all spells whatsoever

 

[NightyP]

Yes give Reavers Det!
I want to have an overpowered class for 8 months like mids get!

Pure tanks would be in same position for grps now that a hybrid is for getting grps. Grp us out of pity.

 

[Lumikki]

Originally posted by old.windforce
like savages, mercs, zerkers, blademaster?

or should only "real" tanks have it (hero, warrior & armsman) have det

discuss

no.

xx

 

[Waok]

Originally posted by svartmetall
And I know that Chretien can solo reds unbuffed with almost all HPs left. I don't know a Savage that can do that.

Yes.. /sarcasm

Takes a savage to kill a caster in 1 sec (quad)
Takes a paladin to kill a caster in about 5 mins...

 

[scarffs]

An unbuffed savage sucks.
Not that you would know of course...

 

[scarffs]

Oh and casters rarely, if ever die in 1 hit.
A quad from which the first is bladeturned it would be very hard to do 1000+ damage.

But I'm sure the next twenty posts will contain the exceptions to what i just stated.

And I dont get why you paladins all complain so much.
You have weapon and shield spec, chants that are quite good and especially when twisting ( read : heal, armour, end regen )and an overpowered ra called faith healing.