Shouldn't reavers have Det?

[old.windforce]

like savages, mercs, zerkers, blademaster?

or should only "real" tanks have it (hero, warrior & armsman) have det

discuss

 

[Cozak]

Thanes dont either and they are probably the second best tank class in Midgard, if spec'd in shield.

 

[old.yaruar]

Originally posted by old.windforce
like savages, mercs, zerkers, blademaster?

or should only "real" tanks have it (hero, warrior & armsman) have det

discuss

all classes or no classes should have det, it's too unbalancing IMO

 

[Whoodoo_RD]

Det is for pure tanks, us hybrids seem to suffer from a lack of decent RAs and the crappiest of unique RAs.

Aye, gibve hybrids det.

(looks forward to getting MCL in 1.6X bout frikken time!)

 

[Eleasias]

No they shouldnt, they are near the overpowered border as it is, giving them det would only make a new savage, not having det is whats keeping them in check atm.

 

[PJS]

hahahaha

now thats funny

 

[Silenzio]

no they shouldent... only for pure tank


savages... well savages r an issue

 

[svartmetall]

Savages aren't hybrids.

 

[kinag]

Originally posted by svartmetall
Savages aren't hybrids.

How many times do people need to hear it?

Anyway, give determination to ALL classes, would make it more fair and more fun imo

 

[chretien]

Originally posted by svartmetall
Savages aren't hybrids.

They're a melee class with a spell line, how does that not make them hybrids?

 

[Waok]

Originally posted by Eleasias
No they shouldnt, they are near the overpowered border as it is, giving them det would only make a new savage, not having det is whats keeping them in check atm.

Reavers are close to overpowerd I agree, having det I think would be unfair aswell, and yes, if det was issued to reavers, we would become the fotm for sure, there is no doubt, debuffs, assist with levi and det.. yes overpowerd.

Still no where near the savage tho

 

[svartmetall]

Originally posted by chretien
They're a melee class with a spell line, how does that not make them hybrids?

<icantbelieveihavetospellthisoutagain>

The only way Savages can affect other players is by hitting them, therefore they are tanks. Unique tanks, but tanks nonetheless.

If we could buff/heal/rez/lifetap/debuff/DOT/AOE/snare at range/disease other players, we might be hybrids...but we can't. Actually, we can't do any of that fancy hybrid stuff at all. All we do is hit people.

So we're tanks.

Simple, really.

</icantbelieveihavetospellthisoutagain>

 

[katt!]

Originally posted by svartmetall
Savages aren't hybrids.

THEY NEED TANK WEAPONSKILL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[chretien]

Originally posted by svartmetall
<icantbelieveihavetospellthisoutagain>

The only way Savages can affect other players is by hitting them, therefore they are tanks. Unique tanks, but tanks nonetheless.

If we could buff/heal/rez/lifetap/debuff/DOT/AOE/snare at range/disease other players, we might be hybrids...but we can't. Actually, we can't do any of that fancy hybrid stuff at all. All we do is hit people.

So we're tanks.

Simple, really.

</icantbelieveihavetospellthisoutagain>

You can buff though - that's what the savagery SPELL LINE is all about. That's why you are hybrids. Just because your buffs are self only doesn't mean they don't count.

 

[svartmetall]

Ok, your main is a Paladin. Are you a tank or a hybrid?

 

[old.windforce]

savage have a taunt shout that affects other players

mercs have dirty tricks and other thingy

blademasters have a DD

My point is that there isn't too much difference between savage / reaver / merc / bladedancer and the reaver class

At this point in time reavers suffer from the same issue in rvr as Thanes and Champions that there is no place for them in gank groups

Only hybrid class that is welcome is paladin because they bring end regen to the group

Pure tanks are much less wanted (warrior / arms / hero) then the high damage classes (savage / zerker(?), merc, blademaster)

I think that det is the most powerfull RA in the game and makes or breaks classes. From my point of view it should be either lowered in effectiveness and/or be given to more fighting classes. Preverable both

 

[chretien]

Originally posted by svartmetall
Ok, your main is a Paladin. Are you a tank or a hybrid?

I'm a melee class with a spell line - hence hybrid.

 

[Driwen]

Originally posted by chretien
You can buff though - that's what the savagery SPELL LINE is all about. That's why you are hybrids. Just because your buffs are self only doesn't mean they don't count.

what hybrid can only self buff their offense or defense? All hybrids always have some offensive spell that does damage or snares or they give a buff to the group. Savages arent heavy tanks, but having a way to boost your offense or defense isnt unknown for light tanks (see vendo/moose).
Besides it not actually being spells as spells are related to magic and I dont see savagery as magical its more like vendo of berserkers or an adrenaline rush in real life.

Ow and I do agree that det is fucked up and it should be looked at. However give a reaver det and there wont be much place for mercs/armsman most likely in groups.

 

[eynar]

Originally posted by chretien
You can buff though - that's what the savagery SPELL LINE is all about. That's why you are hybrids. Just because your buffs are self only doesn't mean they don't count.

Savages aren't hybrids. Sure, they can buff, but those buffs consume hp instead of power. According to Mythic they rely on their inner strength to enhance their fighting abilities instead of relying on magic like Hybrids do. If we follow your reasoning then we might as well say that Heroes are Hybrids too, since they have a special ability to increase their HP, which is some sort of self-buff too.

 

[Litmus]

Drop all Det from any type of tank, and give it Casters/Healer classes imo

 

[svartmetall]

Originally posted by old.windforce
Savages have a taunt shout that affects other players

From which every Savage I know is happy to have the interrupt element removed...we didn't ask for it.

At this point in time reavers suffer from the same issue in rvr as Thanes and Champions that there is no place for them in gank groups

Don't know about Champions, but with Thanes it seems to be more the lack of group-focused abilities than anything else. Thanes' DDs are too weak to make them useful offense hybrids in melee. Many Thanes are calling for some sort of group-orientated ability to be added to the Stormcalling line for this very reason; group dmg add, or something.

Only hybrid class that is welcome is Paladin because they bring end regen to the group

And they also bring group buffs/resist buffs, damage add, healing, and rezzing. You know, all those nifty hybrid things that Savages can't do.

I think that Det is the most powerfull RA in the game and makes or breaks classes.

As I understand it, Det was introduced because without it, casters were massively overpowering in RvR...it was put there to give pure tanks a chance of survival against what casters can do, not least because they can usually do it at range.

 

[svartmetall]

Originally posted by chretien
I'm a melee class with a spell line - hence hybrid.

But you refuse to see the massive difference, both in intent and effect, between "spells" that only affect yourself and Chants/spells that affect your entire group or the enemy?

What the two classes can effectively do:

Paladin: group buffs, group resist buffs, group damage add, group healing, and rezzing. Also hitting people, parrying, and blocking with shields.

Savages: hitting people, parrying.

So therefore:

Paladins = hybrids.

Savages = tanks.

 

[chretien]

The effect makes no difference. The scale of the advantage is roughly the same. Paladin chants affect a wider number of people but they are lesser in effect than a savage self buff - for example top damage add for a paladin is 7.5dps, savages get 25dps, mine affects a group which is why it's less powerful. also don't forget that my 'buffs' are chants (with the exception of my self AF buff), which puts them in a completely different class to concentration or timed buffs from shamans/friars/clerics/savages etc.
What you are talking about is utility, a lack of utility does not preclude a hybrid.

 

[Solarius]

Originally posted by svartmetall

Don't know about Champions, but with Thanes it seems to be more the lack of group-focused abilities than anything else. Thanes' DDs are too weak to make them useful offense hybrids in melee. Many Thanes are calling for some sort of group-orientated ability to be added to the Stormcalling line for this very reason; group dmg add, or something.

Champs too don't have anything unique to bring to a group. Whereas the stormcalling is all about increased damage (str/con buff, which is incidently now better than conc based str/con buffs, according to the Herald library), damage add, dds and instant dds, Valor is about damage and diminishing, with str/con buff, insta dd and snare & debuffs. Whereas before I would have said Valor>stormcalling, now I'm not so sure! (but then, champs do have evade).

Like Thanes, champs do suffer with crap hybrid RAs and no access to Tank RAs/RA costs.

 

[old.Zarff]

if hybrids got det too, what about casters and seers then? should they just get raped once again by mythic?

 

[Waok]

They arent hybrids, savages are pure tanks.

They don't have any ranged attacks, apart from the Taunt.

-

However as much i'd like det, I really think it would be unfair.

We are already an extreemly good class, and well fitted for RvR, very balanced across all realms, just det makes the reaver class a option not best used in your typical grp, as root is the main annoyance, also standing around with mezz for full duration isnt fun either, unless your minstrel/sorc know how to play correctly ofc ;-)

I think we are probably the most fortunate out of all the hybrid classes, our 10 pt Pbaoe LifeTap isnt the greatest RA, but its probably the best RA hybrids have.

Main issue is root, its the daddy of all mess ups.

anyway.. inc savage whine...

 

[svartmetall]

Originally posted by chretien
The effect makes no difference.

It makes a huge difference if it affects a whole group. It makes a huge difference if you can affect an enemy at range (look at the Valewalker list of abilities if you want to see a powerful hybrid).

The scale of the advantage is roughly the same. Paladin chants affect a wider number of people but they are lesser in effect than a Savage self buff - for example top damage add for a Paladin is 7.5dps, Savages get 25dps, mine affects a group which is why it's less powerful.

When 7 other people benefit from your buffs, then it's effectively more powerful, by quite a big margin. Presumably I don't need to explain how 8 x 7.5 > 1 x 25.

also don't forget that my 'buffs' are chants (with the exception of my self AF buff), which puts them in a completely different class to concentration or timed buffs from Shamans/Friars/Clerics/Savages etc.

Splitting the hair kind of fine there, aren't we? What you do affects the whole group, and you have a whole range of things you can do that, group OR self-only, a Savage can't do. And you have a Mana pool, we use HPs. You don't die if your Mana runs out. The fact that the things you can do affect anyone other than yourself, friend OR foe, puts them in a completely different class to what Savages can do.

What you are talking about is utility, a lack of utility does not preclude a hybrid.

No, what I'm talking about is the fact that all we do - ALL we do - is hit people. With bits of metal. The sum total of our effect on other players in the game, whether friend or enemy, is that we hit the enemy with bits of metal. We're light tanks, and I really don't understand why you're being so obtuse about this.
I don't see hitting-the-enemy being all Savages do as a "lack of utility", I see it a "being a tank" and I've never yet met another Savage player who feels any differently on that count. All my Warrior does is hit the enemy with bits of metal, does that mean he suffers from a "lack of utility"...? Of course not, it's all any tank, light or otherwise, does.

 

[svartmetall]

Originally posted by Solarius
Champs too don't have anything unique to bring to a group. Whereas the stormcalling is all about increased damage (str/con buff, which is incidently now better than conc based str/con buffs, according to the Herald library), damage add, dds and instant dds, Valor is about damage and diminishing, with str/con buff, insta dd and snare & debuffs. Whereas before I would have said Valor>stormcalling, now I'm not so sure! (but then, champs do have evade).

In PvE, Thanes rock, but in RvR, steaming pile of walrus poo > Stormcalling.

Like Thanes, champs do suffer with crap hybrid RAs and no access to Tank RAs/RA costs.

What's your Weaponskill like? I know Thanes' is kind of sucky, we go wiff alot.

 

[Solarius]

The reason Tanks need Det (according to Mythic) is because the multiple forms of CC in the game affect Tanks more than the other classes. (ofc, the reason Hybrids didn't get Det was because they had a way to interupt CC, mostly instacast spells or abilities that could interrupt the caster of the CC, not much use against insta cc, but more than Tanks got)

The problem with Det though, is that it reduces all kinds of CC. So, whereas a Champion or a Thane can still do SOMETHING when rooted, when a tank has less options, they're pretty screwed when stunned or mezzed, and the tanks are not. Well, not for long, anyway.

IMO there are a number of ways to change this.

Firstly, they could set Mez and Stun to be unaffected by Det, but remove all forms of instacasting Stun and Mez from the game, make them castable only. This would be unpopular with Bards, Healers, Minstrals and Tanks. since the first three would lose a very powerful ability, and the tanks because if they get stunned or mezzed, they're in the same boat as everyone else.
Or, they could remove Mez and Stun, leaving the only CC as Root and Snare, but this would mean Mages would still be able to operate if CCd, tanks would have a decrease in overall utility due to the effects of Root and Snare on them (even Det reduced), and Hybrids would still be the ultimate loser, having limited (yes, hybrid spells are not much!) utility for the full duration of the root.
Or they could remove or reduce Det

Neither of these are going to please everyone. Personally, I wouldn't like to be whomever has to ultimatly make this decision, if it's being considered at all.

Edit:- Replying to Svart, rather than a new post

Champs are on hybrid WS tables too, I'm not sure if they're as low as Thanes are reported to be, I've never really looked into it tbh, but I tend to miss alot too on anything above yellow con - thats with 50LW

 

[old.windforce]

Originally posted by svartmetall

And they also bring group buffs/resist buffs, damage add, healing, and rezzing. You know, all those nifty hybrid things that Savages can't do.

every pala that heals, af chants or damage add in an rvr group is a BAAAD pala. End regen, emergency resses and resist buff on engaging combat is all they should do

Paladin damage sucks bigtime, they are 90% support