Should we adopt Zero Tollerance to reduce crime ?

[DaGaffer]

I think its quite reasonable to hit someone with a golf bat if they break into my house. Running away or not.

*TWAT*

One dead burglar. Take that.

And if you think the Judge will agree with you, go for it. Of course, now you've written this on a public forum, I'd make sure you hit him from the front or you're boned

 

[Tom]

And theres the problem.

In the USA, a dead burglar in someone's house is treated as a good thing.

 

[Calaen]

Throddy has it right. Stop using the USA as an example, because they primarily have a right to bear arms - thats very different from having the right to twat somebody over the head with a golf bat.

Lol what is a golf bat

 

[tris-]

im agreeing with tom again for some reason (should i be scared?).

i heard news today which made me think my area is comparable to Nigeria. heres the story -

a couple of nights ago ~100 people aged 12-17 congregated in an area about 3/4 miles from my house. the idea was theyd meet up for a fight (or what id call, last man standing). they went tooled up with claw hammers, bats, metal poles and bits of wood with nails through them.

fuck knows how i didnt know about it, only just found out today as a couple people read it in the paper and heard it on the news.

its quite scary that this is happening not far from my house, in an area that is thought to be of quite a high standard.

now let me ask this. if id have had to defend my self for some reason, with my carbon steel wakizashi, who would of been in the most trouble?

(im going to say me btw, considering the innocent person is ALWAYS worst off here)

if someone broke into my house id have no issues with slashing them with that or shooting them in the face with my .22

 

[DaGaffer]

And theres the problem.

In the USA, a dead burglar in someone's house is treated as a good thing.

Y'see that's not really true; if you killed a burglar in your home in the US, from behind, and a good prosecutor found you'd posted this, you'd be in as much trouble as you would be in the UK (except in Texas possibly), and for pretty much the same reasons; UK & US law are both down to how the judge interprets the case law. Its all about appropriate levels of force, but more importantly intent. Does the judge feel your intention was to defend yourself, or does he feel your intention was revenge/punishment, and if you shoot someone in the back its pretty hard to argue for the former. In this country everyone throws up the Tony Martin case to point out that British Justice doesn't protect the victim, but there are plenty of cases where someone's battered a burglar is self-defence and not got so much as a caution; Throd is twisting the facts because he'd prefer to have access to a gun; personally I don't think easier access to guns would make much difference, it hasn't proved to be a deterrent anywhere else. Without sounding like a whiny liberal, which you all should know by now I'm certainly not, if you want to reduce crime, take away its causes.

 

[throdgrain]

Its neither here nor there Dagaffer. I want to reduce crime being carried out on me, and to that end I want to be able to use lethal force if necessary.
I do not want to have to enrol in self-defence classes, I only have one arm and wiegh 9 stone (may not be true ) ,so I need something to help me.
I dont care about drop-in classes for the under-priviliged burglar, I realise OF COURSE that its not his fault , society made him how he is (cough) , but I dont care, I just want him the fuck out of my house

 

[rynnor]

DaGaffer is right - its been shown over and over again that most perpetual burglars/robbers (not to mention prostitutes as in the recent murders) are drug addicts getting the money to feed their addiction.

If the state gave them their drugs whilst trying to wean em off (if possible) or just in a regulated way it would make a massive difference to the crime figures.

The big plus to this is that it also wipes out the organised crime behind drug dealing and ends turf wars.

 

[Ch3tan]

Throd when was the last time you hit someone in self defense?

I have, and have had colleagues and security all pile onto someone being violent or threatening.

The police see it as reasonable force and do not give a rats arse what happens to the criminal. Some guy threatened to pull a knife on our security gaurd two weeks ago, and the police officer that came down was suprised we only restrained him and held him. His opinion was that if the guy threatened to pull a knife that our gaurd and indeed anyone else present had a right to twat the guy.

Protecting yourself with reasonable force and using a gun on someone is a very different thing.

 

[tris-]

what if, for example, throd has some kind of muscle wasting disease or an inherent weakness when it comes to physical strength (i.e. throwing his weight around).

perhaps shooting someone with a pistol maybe reasonable there as he has no other way to stop the guy.

 

[throdgrain]

what if, for example, throd has some kind of muscle wasting disease or an inherent weakness when it comes to physical strength (i.e. throwing his weight around).

perhaps shooting someone with a pistol maybe reasonable there as he has no other way to stop the guy.

At last! This is the bloody point !

I dont know why I bother typing stuff, as people never, ever read it, they're just ready to put they're on opinions in no matter what. Yeah Cal, if I hit you you would feel it mate to be honest, however, what about if I was an old lady? Or in a wheelchair ? Or there was two assailants, both of them (gasp) non-computer nerds ? Or whatever the fuck?

Jesus. Self-defence should be a right for crying out loud, not something based on how fit you are, or how aggresive you are!

As far as drugs being the cause of all ills and therefore legalise drugs, there is some truth in that but not all of it, it just seems like another reason for us all to say its ok, there's crime because, if only thr government did this.

My argument has nothing to do with the causes of crime, it simply says that this is a way of helping make sure crime doesnt happen to you.

 

[old.Tohtori]

It's a thin line really.

"Yes your honor, i shot the guy, but i had a tummy ache so it's really reasonable force"

If you know what i mean.

As always, there are those who bend the rules to a braking point.

 

[throdgrain]

It's a thin line really.

"Yes your honor, i shot the guy, but i had a tummy ache so it's really reasonable force"

If you know what i mean.

As always, there are those who bend the rules to a braking point.

That is just bollocks

 

[old.Tohtori]

That is just bollocks

Well i MAY have overshot the example, but you got my point right?

I'm not saying yei or ney on the whole "reasonable force" issue, but you can agree that there would be a lot of a-holes who would get away with "murder" if it changed like that.

 

[mycenae]

I used to live off the Old Kent Rd in London, an area not reknowned for being a joy to live in, but myself and my ex had found a nice flat in a seemingly decent area for affordable money and thought nothing of it. We were there for 9 months in total. he, being in the Navy, was not there for most of it. I was mugged TWICE in 6 months by the SAME GANG OF KIDS. Approximately 12-16 of them, all aged under 16, many of them coloured. The police were told both times and I was told 'yeah, we know about them, they all already have ASBO's, theres very little else we can do.' (thats no offence yto any policemen out there btw, just what i was told) Now, I'm a well built large sorta girl, and I would have thought someone might think twice before trying to physically assault me.....NOPE! Worst thing was, on both occasions, it was in broad daylight, in front of other people on the street and they all ignored it. Simply looked the other way like i wasn't even there. I used to see these kids around all the time, they were locals and I'm sure theytook great pleasure in seeing my uncomfortable and behaving in threatening ways to make it even worse.
I'm not necessarily in favour of everyone being allowed to have guns....I AM in favour of what they practice in some areas of the states, like I believe someone else has already mentioned. Chain gangs. EVERYONE who commits a crime has to do a certain amount of hard labour in a chain gang......the toughness of the job and the amount of time spent doing it determined by the crime comitted.

 

[throdgrain]

Funny you should say that Mycenae. My son was mugged by a couple of , err, foreign type people only last week. Was beat up, had his phone stolen. The police went through the motions, but we know as well as they do that the chance of them catching anyone is slimmer than Kate Moss.
Im truely GLAD I dont know where they live Zero tolerence? Pfft. Even if they did get caught sod all would happen to them. As you say, I feel some severe punishments are the order of the day. And not to try to "help" the criminals, I dont give a fuck about the criminals, but to help the victims.

 

[Asha]

I used to live off the Old Kent Rd in London, an area not reknowned for being a joy to live in, but myself and my ex had found a nice flat in a seemingly decent area for affordable money and thought nothing of it. We were there for 9 months in total. he, being in the Navy, was not there for most of it. I was mugged TWICE in 6 months by the SAME GANG OF KIDS. Approximately 12-16 of them, all aged under 16, many of them coloured. The police were told both times and I was told 'yeah, we know about them, they all already have ASBO's, theres very little else we can do.' (thats no offence yto any policemen out there btw, just what i was told) Now, I'm a well built large sorta girl, and I would have thought someone might think twice before trying to physically assault me.....NOPE! Worst thing was, on both occasions, it was in broad daylight, in front of other people on the street and they all ignored it. Simply looked the other way like i wasn't even there. I used to see these kids around all the time, they were locals and I'm sure theytook great pleasure in seeing my uncomfortable and behaving in threatening ways to make it even worse.
I'm not necessarily in favour of everyone being allowed to have guns....I AM in favour of what they practice in some areas of the states, like I believe someone else has already mentioned. Chain gangs. EVERYONE who commits a crime has to do a certain amount of hard labour in a chain gang......the toughness of the job and the amount of time spent doing it determined by the crime comitted.

now imagine how you'd feel if they had ready access to guns...

usa policy doesn't fucking work. we have more and more ppl going to jail and it's not deterring anything.

 

[throdgrain]

*sigh*

They wouldnt have access to guns would they, as you would have to have it licenced like pre-1996. And kids couldnt have a licence anyway.

The only people who can have guns at the moment are criminals arnt they.

 

[mycenae]

Hence why I said I WASN'T in favour of it Asha, learn2reedplx!

Throd, hope ur boys ok....its a horrid thing to have happen, really shakes you up...

 

[nath]

On the one hand, I believe that all laws should have to have a reason for existing, not for *not* existing. However in the case of guns, I'd like to see some proof (or at least some statistics) that suggest that a country where guns are used for self defence solve more problems than they cause. I'm with you on the fact that you can't just say "USA USA USA" to disqualify the idea of available weapons but that doesn't mean it's not a relevant point. Guns are available in the states, guns do cause a lot of problems there, it IS worth considering.

Of course guns are available in Canada too and they don't have anywhere as near gun related deaths there. Problem is there are hundreds/thousands of factors involved and there's no way that it's as simple as give average Joe a gun and average Joe will be safe.

 

[Tom]

Fucking hell, its like the Liberal Democrats conference on here these days.

I'm with Throddy all the way on this one. Any **** I catch in my house, if I can, is going to find his face paying a visit to Mr Fourbetwo.

Some of you wait until you've got your own place (yes I know lots of you have), that you've worked hard and paid for, and then some little shit thinks he can break in and take your stuff. IMO that person loses any rights whatsoever until the cops come, at which point the cops should put them in the van and kick some more shit out of them.

I lose all sense of rationality when dealing with people like this.

 

[Asha]

well from what I read you said you're not necessarily in favour of it... not dead set against it... which is why I said what I did...

english intercity society is more like usa than canada so I would think it would follow more the usa model but I can be totally wrong.

 

[throdgrain]

On the one hand, I believe that all laws should have to have a reason for existing, not for *not* existing. However in the case of guns, I'd like to see some proof (or at least some statistics) that suggest that a country where guns are used for self defence solve more problems than they cause. I'm with you on the fact that you can't just say "USA USA USA" to disqualify the idea of available weapons but that doesn't mean it's not a relevant point. Guns are available in the states, guns do cause a lot of problems there, it IS worth considering.

Of course guns are available in Canada too and they don't have anywhere as near gun related deaths there. Problem is there are hundreds/thousands of factors involved and there's no way that it's as simple as give average Joe a gun and average Joe will be safe.

Mate hand guns are available in just about every other country in the world too, just not here. As you rightly say , you cant just give it USA and leave it at that. But my point is , you dont have to look as far away as canada for rational gun use. How about right here in Europe?

We have some of the harshest gun laws in the world here in the UK, yet gun crime is on the rise - hugely - we have all sorts of crime, and yet our government simply makes postures to pretend its doing something about it, when really nothing changes at all.

 

[nath]

Fucking hell, its like the Liberal Democrats conference on here these days.

I'm with Throddy all the way on this one. Any **** I catch in my house, if I can, is going to find his face paying a visit to Mr Fourbetwo.

Some of you wait until you've got your own place (yes I know lots of you have), that you've worked hard and paid for, and then some little shit thinks he can break in and take your stuff. IMO that person loses any rights whatsoever until the cops come, at which point the cops should put them in the van and kick some more shit out of them.

I lose all sense of rationality when dealing with people like this.

Heh that's what amuses me about you guys - do you honestly think that us loony liberals don't feel that way?

Fuck man, if I had a kid and someone mugged him - I wouldn't want a gun, I'd want a steel chair, a pair of handcuffs and some basic home improvement tools. The difference being, I don't think we should make legislation based on my vengeful feelings. If I owned a place and someone broke in, I'd want to club his face in till it was concave - even if he was running away. Again, I don't think we should make legislation based on these feelings.

english intercity society is more like usa than canada so I would think it would follow more the usa model but I can be totally wrong.

I really don't think you can say that - the US is a huge place with lots of very very different states. Perhaps you could say english intercity society is more like New York, but I'm not even sure that's a fair thing to say.

We have some of the harshest gun laws in the world here in the UK, yet gun crime is on the rise - hugely - we have all sorts of crime, and yet our government simply makes postures to pretend its doing something about it, when really nothing changes at all.

Maybe so, but none of that suggests that legalising guns would make things better here. As I said before, in the case of the VAST majority of laws/government implemented initiatives/whatever there should be a reason to have them, not to not have them (speed cameras for example) but with guns I think it's not quite so simple. As a result, I'm still not convinced that having guns would have overall beneficial results to the average joe.

 

[Asha]

I really don't think you can say that - the US is a huge place with lots of very very different states. Perhaps you could say english intercity society is more like New York, but I'm not even sure that's a fair thing to say.

I was talking about intercity and tbh it's rather homoginised over here. Sure you have differences between Phoenix and Buffalo, but not so great as in Europe.

 

[throdgrain]

My opinions are nothing to do with what happened to my son recently. If I knew where they lived I could quite possibly do permanent damage to them, armed or un armed. But I like to think I wouldnt, and I'd get the law to deal with it, for his sake as much as anything. At the moment me sorting it out ala Mossberg style could only end up with me in jail. Indeed, even with sensible self-defence laws, that would still be the case, and rightly so. Vengence dont cut it as a legal defence as far as Im aware.

Niether do I call for a return of the handgun law on the grounds of personal defence, somehow I cant see that happening can you ?

I do call for a return to more sensible gun laws though, on the grounds of bloody liberty as much as anything, and the right to self defence in equal amounts.

As far as someone breaking into my house to attack me and mine, well, the law would get transgressed then, sorry.

 

[nath]

I do call for a return to more sensible gun laws though, on the grounds of bloody liberty as much as anything

Could you explain your point a bit more? I'm not being antagonistic I'm actually interested.

 

[Xtro]

Fucking hell, its like the Liberal Democrats conference on here these days.

Lol Tom, this site gets more like a tribute to the brownshirts every day, come off it.

 

[throdgrain]

Because I like shooting guns. In any other country in the world, and with plenty of people here, thats not considered a crime or a mental illness

Its not for nothing this country of ours has the most successful airgun industry in the world. Its becuase there's still hordes of people who want to shoot, but cant because of the holier-than-thou attitude of successive governments in the country trying to win votes. So an sub-12 ftllb air gun is all they can have, so thats what they get.

They banned hand guns after the Dunblaine thing. That was because someone who should never have had a licence in the first place went mad and shot some school children in a terrible crime. This guy was a peodophile by the way, and heavily under scrutiny by the local law.

Still they let him keep his licence, and because of that ,lots of innocent children died, and law abiding shooters have had to suffer ever since.

We still produce some of the best shooters in the world, Olympic champions and all sorts. The most decorated British athlete ever is a shooter, yet I bet no one has even heard of him. The British pistol shooting team for the Olympics, held in London, have to train in France ! God only knows how the authoritys will get around that closer to the date!

Today I shot my best score, a nice 40 ex 50 sporting clays with my lovely Benelli M2 semi-auto 12-bore. I loved it Thats all!

 

[nath]

Again - I'm in two minds about this argument because there should be reasons to have laws, not reasons to not have them but I'll go for it anyway. None of what you said above suggests that overall guns being allowed would be better than not. I like shooting very much, I'm a rational non mad person and I know if I were to own a gun it'd be safe and fine, but I'm not convince that means they should be legal.

I'm not convinced they should be illegal either, and that's why I'm discussing this with you, I just don't feel you've put across a point that suggests strongly enough that they should available.

 

[Trem]

My dad was on the front page of our local paper once. Someone had grassed him up because he had some grenades and guns hidden under his bath. Think there was some dynamite as well.

I found it really funny because baths get hot.

My dad loved guns, he was an alcoholic as well, still he never shot anyone.

Me on the other hand, I have shot my mum.