Competition Scientology Competition!

[rynnor]

I've got this terrible feeling of deja vu.

Very true - why dont you become a Scientologist - that would re-liven the debate

 

[Ch3tan]

Vasc, force yourself to watch Battlefield Earth, that will teach you all you need to know about this silly cult.

 

[nath]

Bashing religion(calling it stupid, or other such non-constructive points) != ok.

But people have this thing called freedom - surely they should be within their rights to bash (call it stupid, or other non-constructive points) it as long as they're not physically/legally preventing them from believing what they want.

Why is their freedom to believe more important than my freedom to criticise illogical thinking?

 

[rynnor]

Why is their freedom to believe more important than my freedom to criticise illogical thinking?

You can discuss and critique but organising a campaign against them is probably going too far.

If it crosses the line to be potentially threatening then it becomes a criminal offence in the uk.

 

[rynnor]

Interesting info on Anonymous - Scientology Attacker Gets Prison Time - 366 days in jail for DDoS - Softpedia

Seems like criminals accusing others of criminality.

 

[old.Tohtori]

But people have this thing called freedom - surely they should be within their rights to bash (call it stupid, or other non-constructive points) it as long as they're not physically/legally preventing them from believing what they want.

Why is their freedom to believe more important than my freedom to criticise illogical thinking?

Not being ok doesn't mean you can't, it's just pointless.

It's an opinion on what is and isn't ok.

And isn't abolishing a religion actively preventing people from believing, not just criticizing?

 

[nath]

And isn't abolishing a religion actively preventing people from believing, not just criticizing?

Where did anyone say anything about abolishing religion?

Seems like criminals accusing others of criminality.

That's a nice soundbite but in reality we know that there are different degree's of 'criminal' and it's not black & white. After all, I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone here who hasn't downloaded an MP3, TV show or a bit of porn perchance, that they haven't paid for.

 

[rynnor]

That's a nice soundbite but in reality we know that there are different degree's of 'criminal' and it's not black & white. After all, I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone here who hasn't downloaded an MP3, TV show or a bit of porn perchance, that they haven't paid for.

I was referring to this bit "According to the attacked organization, Anonymous' actions consisted of 8,139 threatening phone calls, 3.6 million e-mails, 141 million hits on its website, ten acts of vandalism against its property, 22 bomb threats, and eight death threats against Church leaders."

 

[old.Tohtori]

Where did anyone say anything about abolishing religion?

Isn't that the whole end goal of this endeavour? To remove one religion.

Who's to say it even will stop there.

 

[noblok]

Nice of you to concede my point tho

Not entirely, though. At the point I chose to stop avoiding religious vocabulary it was because the religious vocabulary seemed more adequate to me. In that sense I was passive rather than active. Once I had arrived at that point it was also at least as much of an action not to believe, I really had to try to avoid religious vocabulary. (Longer ago there was a point where I perceived the world differently though. Back then not-believing didn't require any effort.)

I'm not trying to disagree just to disagree, but I just think it's a bit more complicated than saying "believing is an action and not-believing isn't." Sure, not believing doesn't necessarily have to be an action, but it can be. Also, the 'action' involved in believing isn't all that active.

 

[nath]

Isn't that the whole end goal of this endeavour? To remove one religion.

Who's to say it even will stop there.

Who's to say a safe drunk drive will end there - I thought you only dealt with the now, what's happened not what's going to happen?

The goal is not to abolish religion in the sense of banning it or preventing people from being free to be religious. The goal is to have people think for themselves, understand why religion is illogical and false and make the decision all by their lonesome. They're quite different.


Rynnor: Yeah, I don't agree with vandalism (much), threatening phone calls (more) and death threats (very much a no-no). Nuisance things like e-mails and DDoS attacks I'm not going to lose much sleep over.

 

[Vasconcelos]

Vasc, force yourself to watch Battlefield Earth, that will teach you all you need to know about this silly cult.

Is that the one with John 'Fatty Manero' Travolto on it??

In that case Id need to pile a good amount of psychotropics before daring to watch it

 

[old.Tohtori]

Who's to say a safe drunk drive will end there - I thought you only dealt with the now, what's happened not what's going to happen?

The goal is not to abolish religion in the sense of banning it or preventing people from being free to be religious. The goal is to have people think for themselves, understand why religion is illogical and false and make the decision all by their lonesome. They're quite different.

That's irrelevant to this discussion, the drunk driving thing is neither here nor there. I never said i don't think about what might happen, i clearly stated that i know the risks, acknowledge the dangers etc.

Ok, so the goal of the anti-scientology people is NOT to abolish it? Simply to inform people of the bad parts? Because from the guys(who regged to say it) post i gathered they are trying to get it removed from the face of the earth.

There is a limit to what is simple "teaching" and what becomes forcing.

 

[nath]

There is a limit to what is simple "teaching" and what becomes forcing.

I agree, and as I said - death threats, bomb threats, threatening phone calls are not OK. Mocking religion is not forcing people not to be religious, no one sensible wants religious belief to be banned, just highlighted for its lack of logic and potential harm.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I agree, and as I said - death threats, bomb threats, threatening phone calls are not OK. Mocking religion is not forcing people not to be religious, no one sensible wants religious belief to be banned, just highlighted for its lack of logic and potential harm.

Well, some opinions(not yours it seems) show more towards total religion removal then others. Those who keep it at a low level mocking, much like opinions on movies and such, are fine. Also those who are against religion, should be taught that not all religion are the same and that not all religious people are the same, this seems like a problem with many anti-peeps.

We have to remember though; any large enough group of people with a common goal equals trouble. Either from rotten apples in their ranks, or from the opposition.

 

[nath]

Well, some opinions(not yours it seems) show more towards total religion removal then others. Those who keep it at a low level mocking, much like opinions on movies and such, are fine. Also those who are against religion, should be taught that not all religion are the same and that not all religious people are the same, this seems like a problem with many anti-peeps.

We have to remember though; any large enough group of people with a common goal equals trouble. Either from rotten apples in their ranks, or from the opposition.

Well, at least on this forum I've not seen anyone who thinks it should be banned. I'd like to see religion considered about as silly as believing in Santa Claus but I don't see it happening any time soon and I certainly don't think there should be legislation to that effect (how would you legislate that anyway ).

There is, however, something that groups all religious people - religion. Whatever it happens to be, if you consider yourself religious then you share a certain trait with all other religious. But then that's a tautology - all religious people are religious, if you're anti-religion then you're against something that encompasses all religious people.

 

[Sethdood]

I was referring to this bit "According to the attacked organization, Anonymous' actions consisted of 8,139 threatening phone calls, 3.6 million e-mails, 141 million hits on its website, ten acts of vandalism against its property, 22 bomb threats, and eight death threats against Church leaders."

According to the attacked organization, Anonymous' actions consisted of

the attacked organization

THATS EXACTLY WHY WE FIGHT THEM, RETARD. They lie and make up shit and start smear campaigns against annnyyybody who stands in their way. Pay attention, at least fucking wiki this shit to begin to educate yourself on the topic, and then do the real research before defending a cult of idiots who do horrible shit every day.

 

[nath]

I've not exactly been on rynnor's side on this little discussion but I can see that he's not defending Scientology itself, rather questioning the validity of the attacks. An utterly reasonable thing to do and I find it kind of ironic that you get so aggressive and start getting verbally abusive because he doesn't agree with you given your cause...

 

[Sethdood]

I've not exactly been on rynnor's side on this little discussion but I can see that he's not defending Scientology itself, rather questioning the validity of the attacks. An utterly reasonable thing to do and I find it kind of ironic that you get so aggressive and start getting verbally abusive because he doesn't agree with you given your cause...

Lol okay granted, but it's incredibly frustrating when somebody defends a point to the death while demonstrating zero knowledge of the subject. Doesn't know anything about the anon vs scientology war, how it started or why, the common practices of scientology and their various abuses, and gigantic laundry list of awful horrible shit.

 

[old.Tohtori]

THATS EXACTLY WHY WE FIGHT THEM

Doesn't know anything about the anon vs scientology war

See nath, this is why i got the feeling they ain't just "educating" people

And how can one call anonymous actions the fault of scientology? Couldnt it be radical anti-relig people too?

 

[Scouse]

Bashing religion(calling it stupid, or other such non-constructive points) != ok.

So, you're not against freedom of thought, unless the very concept of religion is the thing on the table at which point you think it's out of order. Right?

I mean, if someone really thinks that "religion" is stupid and has evidence to back this up, that's still not ok?

Love your freedom m8

See nath, this is why i got the feeling they ain't just "educating" people

And that's what it's all about for religious people...

 

[old.Tohtori]

So, you're not against freedom of thought, unless the very concept of religion is the thing on the table at which point you think it's out of order. Right?

I mean, if someone really thinks that "religion" is stupid and has evidence to back this up, that's still not ok?

Love your freedom m8

You mised the point compeltely.

My personal opinion was that discussing it is ok, but silly bashing and namecalling is pointless. Also stated that you're free to be silly, but it's still silly.

And that's what it's all about for religious people...

You make it into something more then the comment is. It SEEMS these people aren't just educating people, but are actively seeming to try and remove the religion.

If it's just more widespread mockery, fine, but when the head honcho is talking about a war...well.

I think i make a fair point on it?

 

[Scouse]

are actively seeming to try and remove the religion.

Yep. They're actively trying to remove it.

Given all the evidence, what's wrong with that?

 

[old.Tohtori]

Yep. They're actively trying to remove it.

Given all the evidence, what's wrong with that?

Well that's no longer educating and so forth, but actually pushing and forcing people to drop a religion.

It may be aimed at the institute, but still, it's hardly "just educating" anymore.

 

[Scouse]

Well that's no longer educating and so forth, but actually pushing and forcing people to drop a religion.

Wrong!

Yep, I know that's the wrong way to start a post that supposed to convince someone, but I already know you're not going to pay attention

None of Anonymous' attacks against Scientology are levelled at individuals. Their tactics mostly involve peaceful ridicule of the "organisation", it's structures and it's "beliefs".

They're not forcing anyone to do anything. They're ridiculing the "beliefs" of the organisation and at the same time showing everyone else what a bunch of ridiculous fucktards they would be if they signed up.

Now, what's wrong with that?

 

[old.Tohtori]

but I already know you're not going to pay attention

Yeah i can't be bothered.

 

[Scouse]

Yeah i can't be bothered.

Because you couldn't find away around what I'd written, that's why

 

[old.Tohtori]

Because you couldn't find away around what I'd written, that's why

No, because i can't be bothered to discuss things with someone who keeps insinuating and starting his replies with such comments. So without further ado..

NS

 

[Scouse]

No, because i can't be bothered to discuss things with someone who keeps insinuating and starting his replies with such comments. So without further ado..

NS

Lame. Gwan. Have a go. I promise to be nice, not call anyone any names or insult your intelligence.

Here's a turnup for the books: I genuinely believe that you've read what I've written - and can't find anything wrong with it.

It's even possible (though significantly less likely) that it's made you realise that you've jumped on the wrong bandwagon...

 

[Sethdood]

Well that's no longer educating and so forth, but actually pushing and forcing people to drop a religion.

It may be aimed at the institute, but still, it's hardly "just educating" anymore.

Lol you're totally right, we're not just trying to educate. We are definitely actively bashing the cult. You can tell by the prank contest this thread was about 10 pages ago. While we do seek to educate people, most of our anti-scientology actions deprive them of either money, members or credibility.