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[Scouse]

And 'believing' is as much of an action as 'percieving'. Technically, yes, it's a verb and an action

Yes. Yes it is. Technically, actually and in reality.

but the terminology is slightly misleading as you don't really make an active choice to believe. It just happens.

But it still happens...

The terminology isn't misleading. You've just become so good at believing that it's an action that you take without even thinking.

A reasonable analogy would be to say I no longer make conscious choices when changing gear, breaking, accelerating. But I do make 'em.

Sorry. I know you guys fervently want to believe you're right. But of the two "viewpoints", only one of 'em is

 

[old.Tohtori]

And your no belief just IS?

Poppycock.

Try to understand it, which i doubt you can, some people don't have to think about religion to be religious. It just IS.

Same exact way that your lifestyle just is.

 

[Sethdood]

OKAY.

Let's remember the important things here.

1) Just because somebody else also does bad shit, that does NOT make it okay when Scientology does it.

2) Just because other religions believe ridiculous bullshit does NOT make it okay that Scientologists promote their own brand of bullshit.

3) Scientology is not being persecuted over their beliefs, it's over their behavior and actions. Their stupid beliefs are bonus.

4) Ridicule is an excellent weapon against Scientology, as it robs it of any attempt at legitimacy and forces their crazy stupid brainwashed responses for all the world to see. We would know, we've been doing this to them for a while.

5) You can't win $1000 prize for a video pranking any other religion right now (that I know of).

 

[nath]

Uh yeah, Sethdood - using massive text isn't a great way to win friends and influence people .

 

[Sethdood]

Oh shit sorry, I thought it was only that one line, I'll edit.

 

[Sethdood]

Crap, nevermind. Sorry about that.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Well, it's still telling people what to do, no matter what.

Humans have this lovely thing called freedom, in most parts, which gives them the freedom to do anything they want(within given limits ). I respect that freedom.

Anyone telling anyone, that they are living wrong, are by default less in my eyes.

Random scientology bloke - level playing field.
Someone telling that bloke he's living wrong - minus 1.

It's that simple, let people live and do what they wish.

 

[Raven]

All religion is a scam, all religions are run by people who have made themselves very rich. When they have been able to get away with it all religions have murdered, tortured or imprisoned those that oppose them, they would still be doing so if they could get away with it. Scientology is not even close to as "evil" as the Christian or Islamic faiths.

 

[Ch3tan]

Lets face it, scientology is not a religion, no matter that it is recognised as one. It's a cult and should be treated as one.

I really do not see the issue with educating people about the realities of Scientology and showing them up for what they are.

 

[Damini]

All religion is a scam, all religions are run by people who have made themselves very rich. When they have been able to get away with it all religions have murdered, tortured or imprisoned those that oppose them, they would still be doing so if they could get away with it. Scientology is not even close to as "evil" as the Christian or Islamic faiths.

Bloody hell, it's only been going a couple decades, and it's already tried to infiltrate the governments of over thirty countries. Give it time!

Or, rather, don't. My personal preference.

All religions are not a scam. Sorry, that's just not true. I'm as athiest as they come, but I don't believe that the intention of every single religion out there is to profit through deceit.

And Toto, if you really believed that, and you really researched the behaviour of Scientology, then those two view points couldn't mesh. If you support individual freedoms, then you would condemn most of the behaviour and edicts of Scientology. Then disappear in a puff of logic.

Anyway, this is all pointless. Toto will always run to the nearest opposing opinion, no matter what the topic, because he was bitten by a radioactive mirror as a child.

And everyone else? Religious topics bring out the dogma in people, myself included.

 

[old.Tohtori]

And Toto, if you really believed that, and you really researched the behaviour of Scientology, then those two view points couldn't mesh. If you support individual freedoms, then you would condemn most of the behaviour and edicts of Scientology. Then disappear in a puff of logic.

Anyway, this is all pointless. Toto will always run to the nearest opposing opinion, no matter what the topic, because he was bitten by a radioactive mirror as a child.

Interesting to talk about freedoms and then claim i just go against peoples opinions. I say that people have the right to choose what they do and the freedom to do so, and i get judged by that HIGHLY OFFENSIVE statement :lol:

People chose Scientology, now they live with it, people have the freedom to choose and then they live with that choice. In other words; people have the right to f*ck their own life up if they so choose to.

That's an opinion, nothing more, no need to choose sides(which seems the trend with UK peeps; that side or this!)

Get your facts straight.

 

[Damini]

People are born into Scientology too - they don't chose it. Besides, if free will is the issue, old people chose to give their life savings to dodgy builders. Children chose to meet up with the man on the internet. Free will does not indicate moral right on behalf of the persuader.

And Toto, you always do. The landscape of pretty much every thread is carved by you having an opinion that is different to everyone else's. It's who you are, so why you find that so offensive I have no idea. Also, why you tie me pointing that out with a violation of freedom is beyond me? Seems a bit overly dramatic.

 

[Scouse]

Humans have this lovely thing called freedom, in most parts, which gives them the freedom to do anything they want(within given limits ). I respect that freedom.

Lets be clear:

Tohtori respects the freedom of Scientologists to beat people up, drive them from their neighbourhoods and label them paedophiles

That's what we're arguing against. You jumping on some pissy "they aer religi0n adn must be pr0tectedz0r!!!111" bandwagon shows that your devotion to "belief" must be clouding your judgement.

Maybe because Hitler believed it was OK to kill Jews we should have let him eh? I mean, he really believed it.

 

[rynnor]

All religions are not a scam. Sorry, that's just not true. I'm as athiest as they come, but I don't believe that the intention of every single religion out there is to profit through deceit.

All religions are like dodgy Insurance salesmen selling afterlife insurance - they all profit from it - Scientology may be a bit more blatant but its all related.

Oh and lets not forget the Catholic church used to sell 'indulgences' - ie remission of a certain sin - now thats a pretty impressive scam.

Still these are just my beliefs and I could well be wrong - thats why I support the fundamental freedom of believing whatever you want free from persecution.

 

[rynnor]

Tohtori respects the freedom of Scientologists to beat people up, drive them from their neighbourhoods and label them paedophiles

Well A: Wheres any shred of proof and B: so what?

Every religion has bad people - most have people doing far, far worse than that (if its true) so why should that be a special case just for Scientologists?

 

[rynnor]

People are born into Scientology too - they don't chose it. Besides, if free will is the issue, old people chose to give their life savings to dodgy builders. Children chose to meet up with the man on the internet. Free will does not indicate moral right on behalf of the persuader.

Surely you can see those are completely different things - we all have the right to join a religion and give them our money/tithing/donation etc. should we so wish.

You are basically saying that people with religious beliefs are not capable of making a rational decision to donate which is pure prejudice

And Toto, you always do. The landscape of pretty much every thread is carved by you having an opinion that is different to everyone else's. It's who you are, so why you find that so offensive I have no idea. Also, why you tie me pointing that out with a violation of freedom is beyond me? Seems a bit overly dramatic.

I agree with Tohtori on this - why be so divisive? If there were no differing viewpoints there would be no discussion.

 

[old.Tohtori]

And Toto, you always do. The landscape of pretty much every thread is carved by you having an opinion that is different to everyone else's. It's who you are, so why you find that so offensive I have no idea. Also, why you tie me pointing that out with a violation of freedom is beyond me? Seems a bit overly dramatic.

It's your opinion, even if completely fabricated to sooth whatever need you have.

I'm not alone in this opinion either, others have said it's religious intolerance in this very thread.

Saying "you just argue" is a weakminded response.

Lets be clear:

Tohtori respects the freedom of Scientologists to beat people up, drive them from their neighbourhoods and label them paedophiles

That's what we're arguing against. You jumping on some pissy "they aer religi0n adn must be pr0tectedz0r!!!111" bandwagon shows that your devotion to "belief" must be clouding your judgement.

Maybe because Hitler believed it was OK to kill Jews we should have let him eh? I mean, he really believed it.

Let's be clear; i never said that.

I said people have the right to choose Scientology as their religion. I never said those things are ok.

I have no religion clouding my judgement, i believe in freedom of choice and it's no one elses right to say how others should live. No. Ones.

Ofcourse there are people like that in this world, but the world ain't perfect.

 

[Damini]

What the hell? Where exactly did I say that religion = retard? What I said was that vulnerable people should be protected from scams. Just because something is labelled a religion does not, and absolutely should not, give it immunity.

And my point regarding Toto is that it's futile trying to persuade people your viewpoint, or even trying to explain your view, especially when it comes to religion (or in this case fraud dressed as religion). As both you and Toto are swinging to massive over reaction, it just proves my point further. Vulnerable people should be protected != omg, you just called religious people dumb, prejudice!!11

Bailing out.

 

[dub]

religiousness is caused by a lack of vitamin E , in that way it is much akin to scurvy , i'd recommend a varied and nutricious diet and they should be fine again in no time

 

[old.Tohtori]

As both you and Toto are swinging to massive over reaction, it just proves my point further. Vulnerable people should be protected != omg, you just called religious people dumb, prejudice!!11

Now THIS is an over-reaction

All i said was that people have a choice, dumb people, smart people, all people. The way they use that choice, should be up to them. Not the "we are smarter" people.

 

[noblok]

But it still happens...

The terminology isn't misleading. You've just become so good at believing that it's an action that you take without even thinking.

A reasonable analogy would be to say I no longer make conscious choices when changing gear, breaking, accelerating. But I do make 'em.

Sorry. I know you guys fervently want to believe you're right. But of the two "viewpoints", only one of 'em is

It's not really like the unconscious choices you make when changing gears. I still think my 'perceiving' analogy works better. Just like I can't help but perceive this site as coloured green (except by fiddling in the options menu, ofcourse), I can't help but experience earth as creation (symbolically, not literally - I'm far from a creationist).

I'll admit that there was a certain element of choice. The way I perceive the world doesn't necessarily lead to the existence of God. It's no logical deduction, nor do I experience univocal signs which just scream 'made by God'. However, there is something about the world which is, for me, personally, best described by symbolically saying it's created by God. I have treid for a long time to avoid this vocabulary, but after a while I chose (this is where the choice comes in) to stop that avoiding, because it seemed pointless to use non-religious terms when they were needlessly abstract and failed to capture the world how I experienced as well as the religious vocabulary does.

At least that's how it works for me. It may have been different for you, but it's certainly not like that for every single religious person.

 

[Vasconcelos]

7 pages of stuff...

What exactly is the dogma of this 'religion'?

 

[rynnor]

7 pages of stuff...

What exactly is the dogma of this 'religion'?

Something about everyone being aliens I think

 

[Vasconcelos]

Something about everyone being aliens I think

Hmmm you got my attention. Tell me more

 

[Scouse]

Let's be clear; i never said that.

You've never explicity said it. But by refusing to acknowledge the points again and again (and again)...

I said people have the right to choose Scientology as their religion.

I never said that people shouldn't have the right to do so either.

Once again Toht, probably because of your religious fury, you're displaying an inability to even grasp what the argument is about. And because you feel like you keep getting fucked in the ass by "anti-religionists" you blind yourself to the realities of the situation.

But I'm not surprised. That's what religion's all about.


Edit: Rynnor's post is so lame this is all I'm going to say about it

Edit again: And Dams again

 

[Scouse]

It's not really like the unconscious choices you make when changing gears.

I'd say it's very like it.

I'll admit that there was a certain element of choice

Nice of you to concede my point tho

 

[nath]

OK, I'd like to check something here.

Is anyone out there saying that *any* religious way of thinking should be banned? (Clearly it's possible that some religious practices could be banned if they were violent or some such).

Is anyone out there saying that religious thought should be exempt from criticism?

I think knowing the answer to these two (fairly simple) questions should make it easier to continue the discussion, should anyone want to.

 

[old.Tohtori]

You've never explicity said it. But by refusing to acknowledge the points again and again (and again)...

I never said that people shouldn't have the right to do so either.

Once again Toht, probably because of your religious fury, you're displaying an inability to even grasp what the argument is about. And because you feel like you keep getting fucked in the ass by "anti-religionists" you blind yourself to the realities of the situation.

But I'm not surprised. That's what religion's all about.

First; if i haven't said it, you shouldn't claim it. It's a bullsh*t claim. It's like me claiming you want to murder all religious people.

You disagreed with my position of people having the right to choose and i don't feel at all threatened by you, or any other anti-religious people.

But i'm not surprised, you need to make up things because you can't agree with a religious person

Let's be clear here Scouse;

I said; "Humans have this lovely thing called freedom, in most parts, which gives them the freedom to do anything they want(within given limits ). I respect that freedom."

To which you quoted and replied to;

"Tohtori respects the freedom of Scientologists to beat people up, drive them from their neighbourhoods and label them paedophiles"

Bull, shit.

OK, I'd like to check something here.

Is anyone out there saying that *any* religious way of thinking should be banned? (Clearly it's possible that some religious practices could be banned if they were violent or some such).

Is anyone out there saying that religious thought should be exempt from criticism?

I think all religious thinking is ok, if not taken to extremes.

I don't think religion is exempt from criticism, but also there should be enough respect towards others to let them believe what they do.

Discussing things = ok.
Bashing religion(calling it stupid, or other such non-constructive points) != ok.

 

[old.user4556]

I've got this terrible feeling of deja vu.

 

[rynnor]

Hmmm you got my attention. Tell me more

My knowledge comes 3rd hand from some dodgy documentary trying to hurt them but something about everyone being descended from aliens who were fighting some battle and your either a good alien or a bad alien - might be something about reincarnations too.