Competition Scientology Competition!

[old.Tohtori]

Oh there's no exceptions here - I'm utterly intolerant of religion, though that's much in the same way that I'm intolerant of people claiming pigs can fly. If someone quietly believes that pigs can fly then I'm not going to go after them, but anyone who claims they can in an open forum* is fair game. My disdain for Scientology is no more or less than my disdain for any other religion. I guess intolerance might not be the right word to use as I'm quite happy to tolerate them but those who put themselves in the position to have their religion scrutinised should have their religion scrutinised.

I wouldn't mind people going against those who preach and try to convert others, but when people go against religion, they make blanket claims that include ALL people. Well, not all the time, but i dare say it's around 90% of the time if not more.

 

[Aoami]

Too late to edit but who do you think is really behind that contest - wouldnt suprise me at all if it was another religion that feels threatened.

it's clear who came up with the contest, and it's nothing to do with a religous group.

 

[Sethdood]

it's clear who came up with the contest, and it's nothing to do with a religous group.

You god dam right, QUITE far from a religious group.

I couldn't help but register here after reading this thread, just to post this message.

First of all although the other major religions do often boast a history of abuse extortion and mafia like behavior, none of them (except for islam) have been able to pull these things off, in a serious capacity, in the last century on the level with Scientology.

Paying for religious services is MANDATORY and almost daily, between buying every stupid book and paying for every fucking course and their poor excuse for counseling. Speaking of counseling, they use this to keep track of all your secrets to use them against you should you decide to leave the cult. They frequently use their status as a religion to circumvent labor laws, forcing cult members and children to work 16 hour days. If your family does not like scientology, you are not allowed to talk to them anymore under threat of heavy penalty. If you are in their stupid private navy and you get pregnant, they force you to have an abortion. They have military style bases and compounds with armed guards and sniper nests.

They have their own private PRISONS and INTELLIGENCE AGENCY . If you are not being a perfect little cult member, they stick you in the "RPF, where you are physically abused, forced to work (more), left in isolation and fed prison food. They also train some members (google OSA) how to spy on critics, how to follow people home, and scare tactics to silence people. If that fails to shut up detractors, they brutally defame said critic and attempt to get him/her fired, arrested, or attempt suicide. This is what they call the "fair game" policy.

Believe me, Agnus Dei ain't got shit on Scientology.

The catholic church never staged a massive infiltration of the IRS and other government agencies to steal documents on it's members and critics. Scientology did, and was raided by the FBI in the 70's, sending 7 cult leaders to jail, including the founder's wife? And where was the fat fucking idiot L. Ron Hubbard? He was with his retard navy and 13 year old boys in international waters.

I can really, seriously go on like this for pages. The point is, look this shit up and watch some videos. We have been organizing protests against them for almost two years in every major city in the world, and have been kicking their fucking ass. They are on the verge of bankruptcy and members are leaving left and right. They have been convicted of organized fraud in France, banned in Germany and are currently under very serious public investigation in Australia. They can be taken down, with comedy and ridicule and exposure. What other "criminal" religion is vulnerable to your personal actions right now? Some of you say you're rabidly anti-religion? We'll we're out here slicing ones throat, where the fuck are you?

 

[old.Tohtori]

We'll we're out here slicing ones throat, where the fuck are you?

Sitting at home, playing games and not giving a f*ck

I'm indifferent to scientology, so can't say one way or the other, pro or con, but you do what you feel is right, what you want to do and seem to do it with passion, so all due respect for doing what you believe in.

 

[rynnor]

First of all although the other major religions do often boast a history of abuse extortion and mafia like behavior, none of them (except for islam) have been able to pull these things off, in a serious capacity, in the last century on the level with Scientology.

Islam is far far worse - do scientologists stone you to death for being raped, do they beat you for not wearing a hijab - so why arent you going after them?

Paying for religious services is MANDATORY and almost daily, between buying every stupid book and paying for every fucking course and their poor excuse for counseling. Speaking of counseling, they use this to keep track of all your secrets to use them against you should you decide to leave the cult. They frequently use their status as a religion to circumvent labor laws, forcing cult members and children to work 16 hour days. If your family does not like scientology, you are not allowed to talk to them anymore under threat of heavy penalty.

This is pretty much 100% true of Agnus Dei plus they are obviously big on self harm on a dailly basis.

They have their own private PRISONS and INTELLIGENCE AGENCY .

Hello? The Catholic church has its own INDEPENDANT STATE!!! With all the trappings thereof - thats a lot scarier.

They also train some members (google OSA) how to spy on critics, how to follow people home, and scare tactics to silence people. If that fails to shut up detractors, they brutally defame said critic and attempt to get him/her fired, arrested, or attempt suicide.

Again this is pretty much what the Catholic Church did to the kids who said they had been abused by priests - I keep using them as the example but I'm sure other Major Faiths do this kind of stuff where they have a lot of influence.

The catholic church never staged a massive infiltration of the IRS and other government agencies to steal documents on it's members and critics. Scientology did, and was raided by the FBI in the 70's, sending 7 cult leaders to jail, including the founder's wife? .

Thats 40 years ago though and they got caught?

I can really, seriously go on like this for pages.

It wont be anymore convincing - I'm sorry but you have not made a case other than its a religion you feel can actually be hurt by you - a lot of other major religions are far worse and have killed thousands...

What other "criminal" religion is vulnerable to your personal actions right now? Some of you say you're rabidly anti-religion? We'll we're out here slicing ones throat, where the fuck are you?

I dont think you can destroy it if people actually believe in it - dont you think your persecution could backfire badly? Campaigns against them certainly keep them in the news?

 

[rynnor]

it's clear who came up with the contest, and it's nothing to do with a religous group.

How do you know when they are Anon?

 

[Gray]

I believe all the hate towards Scientology stemmed from some Lisa McPherson case, apparently they starved her to death and wouldnt give her medical treatment at any hospitals etc etc etc.

I dont care much for them, yet one of my friends is dead set against them.

Its quite interesting how this "group" called Anonymous is after Scientology blood though, they where apparently once upon a time [maybe still are?] some sort of cyber-criminals in their own right, hacking and vandelising last i heard.

 

[Scouse]

I'm an Atheist thus I like to think I'm a neutral in squabbles between religions and lets be clear because thats what this is.

No. It isn't. Its a group of people who don't like Scientology because it's a business, not a religion, and scientologists do horrible things like get your neighbours to think that you're a paedophile if you disagree with them.

I can really, seriously go on like this for pages. The point is, look this shit up and watch some videos. We have been organizing protests against them for almost two years in every major city in the world, and have been kicking their fucking ass. They are on the verge of bankruptcy and members are leaving left and right. They have been convicted of organized fraud in France, banned in Germany and are currently under very serious public investigation in Australia. They can be taken down, with comedy and ridicule and exposure. What other "criminal" religion is vulnerable to your personal actions right now? Some of you say you're rabidly anti-religion? We'll we're out here slicing ones throat, where the fuck are you?

Nice



And Rynnor. I made the point that we can do something about scientology. The catholic church (and the rest) are farrrr to big and entrenched for this sort of action to work. So, if you're looking for why people are going after scientology - it's because it's a war they can win...

 

[Turamber]

Hello? The Catholic church has its own INDEPENDANT STATE!!! With all the trappings thereof - thats a lot scarier

Why is it scary? Its around the size of the City of London. Should we also be scared that the Knights of St John are also an autonomous republic? Their territory is one room in La Vatican. Oooh, just think of all the evil things they could get up to hiding stationery in the wrong cupboard and the like.

Scientology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anyway on subject it would seem pretty much most sensible people would agree Scientology is not a religion.

 

[Ch3tan]

Islam is far far worse - do scientologists stone you to death for being raped, do they beat you for not wearing a hijab - so why arent you going after them?

depends on interpretation of their laws, you can't mar every islamic state with that one.

 

[Chilly]

depends on interpretation of their laws, you can't mar every islamic state with that one.

No, just rather a lot of them.

 

[rynnor]

depends on interpretation of their laws, you can't mar every islamic state with that one.

No but its all done in the name of Islam the same as youd attribute crazy Christians to the Christian religion in general.

 

[rynnor]

Why is it scary?

I was echoing back the quoted guys style

 

[rynnor]

And Rynnor. I made the point that we can do something about scientology. The catholic church (and the rest) are farrrr to big and entrenched for this sort of action to work. So, if you're looking for why people are going after scientology - it's because it's a war they can win...

Do you really think thats true?

If people really do believe it then how can it possibly be defeated?

It's giving them a lot of publicity and not everyone is hostile - no doubt they will gain some converts.

I also feel that this is a case of religious intolerance, people should be free to believe whatever they like, just because a religion includes payment/titheing doesnt invalidate it as a religion.

 

[Scouse]

Why is it scary?

Because people who don't believe in sky faries would have buldozed it to fuck and built a car-park (or some such money-earning facility (that pays taxes)) there. But they're too scared of the reprecussions.

It's scary because something that's demonstrably nonsense - Catholi'hey Africans, don't wear condoms, they don't help stop aids!'cism - doesn't get wiped out simply because there's enough (paying) sheep believing in it to make it difficult...

It's not like Catholics have a historical penchant for "holy war" or anything eh?

 

[Scouse]

Do you really think thats true?

Yes. It's working. As has been previously stated.

Scientology's taking a hammering because of coverage of Anonymous' campain in the media. The vulnerable people who make up the vast majority of their new recruits are sceptical of their (now) obviously idiotic statements.

They'll probably become christians or muslims instead, but hey-ho, at least that lot of nutters don't label dissenters as paedophiles...

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

It's not like Catholics have a historical penchant for "holy war" or anything eh?

People have a penchant for holy war. Some of them have been catholics, some other religions. You'll probably find most major religions at some time or another have been used as an excuse for starting a war or three.

If you look back in history, Henry VIII was basically a mass murderer (I'm going here by actual history, not the shite on TV like 'The Tudors') and Elizabeth I wasn't much better, if at all. And yet Henry started a whole new church eh?

Although I raise the above as examples, I am not criticising the religions themselves. My point is merely that arguing over this or that religion and their virtues and darker moments becomes somewhat pointless since it tends to be the people within a religion that are the cause, rather than the religion itself.

Its people that are the problem. Its people that need to be addressed. If you look at most religions they tend to go along the lines of "Be nice to people, go to heaven (or its equivilent) when you die".

Its power mad and obsessive individuals or groups of people that have at times distorted religions towards their own ends and they are pretty much generic throughout history - the religion itself just being a variable where you can substitute any other religion in its place.

Going back to the original post, I can't see me wanting to join in any 'competition' that bashes a group of people for their beliefs, regardless of my view on their beliefs system. I may not respect a particular belief system but I respect an individual's right to choose to follow that belief system.

 

[rynnor]

If you look back in history, Henry VIII was basically a mass murderer

Actually he suffered terrible injuries in a jousting tourney that nearly killed him - he was unconscious for more than an hour (anything more than a few minutes indicates brain damage) and his whole personality changed from that moment on becoming paranoid and malevolent.

If he hadnt been King he would have been in a nut house.

Edit - oh and as for Elizabeth I guess having a paranoid schizophrenic with the power of life and death who might have you executed on a whim would probably screw up anyone.

 

[rynnor]

Yes. It's working. As has been previously stated.

Hmm but thats the guys campaigning against it saying the campaign is working - isnt that a bit circular?

I tend to think they are trying the 'if we say its declining enough people might believe and leave'.

It has proved to be un-touched by previous scandals so I dont see why an internet campaign will work - as to it getting media attention I'm pretty media savvy and I've never heard of their campaign?

In the past decade it has been ruled an official Religion (and thus tax exempt) in a number of countries - I think its likely this sucess that has caused the backlash.

 

[Scouse]

it tends to be the people within a religion that are the cause, rather than the religion itself.

This is absolutely categorically incorrect.

The religion's the chicken, the people are the eggs.

 

[Turamber]

Because people who don't believe in sky faries would have buldozed it to fuck and built a car-park (or some such money-earning facility (that pays taxes)) there. But they're too scared of the reprecussions.

So its only religious people who have respect for history and culture? And it is evolutionists who have the monopoly on destruction, close-mindedness and intolerance?

Do you actually think at all before you type your venomous empty minded bullshit?

 

[Scouse]

In the past decade it has been ruled an official Religion (and thus tax exempt) in a number of countries - I think its likely this sucess that has caused the backlash.

Nothing to do with the fact that they're palpably not a religion and that they use aggressive corporate business practices, along with getting people labelled paedos, beating people up etc.?

No. It must be a backlash because you think it's a "religion". Even when, I'm sure you know, a science fiction writer started it in the 50's (probably for a bet)....

 

[Scouse]

So its only religious people who have respect for history and culture? And it is evolutionists who have the monopoly on destruction, close-mindedness and intolerance?

Do you actually think at all before you type your venomous empty minded bullshit?

I knew it'd piss you off before I wrote it (and I used language that I knew could provoke a reaction, but leave the reader in no doubt as to my feelings). However, it's neither "venomous" nor "empty minded".

My position is very well thought out. It can be argued from a strong standpoint with reams and reams of evidence to back it up.

You're pissed off at it because it's an affront to your belief system, and it hurts you to contemplate, even for a second, that you may be wasting your life believing in a massive sack of wank.

Which you do.


You may be a nice person tho.

 

[rynnor]

Nothing to do with the fact that they're palpably not a religion and that they use aggressive corporate business practices, along with getting people labelled paedos, beating people up etc.?

No. It must be a backlash because you think it's a "religion". Even when, I'm sure you know, a science fiction writer started it in the 50's (probably for a bet)....

So what - a criminal anarchist and his sci-fi book started Christianity - if we are going to get picky there wont be any religions - they all effectively start with one guy 'making it up'.

Edit - I dont think just because the 'making it up' took place a long time ago it should gain any superior status - do you?

 

[Turamber]

My position is very well thought out.

No. Your position is the part of a Richard Dawkins book that you remember. I'd like to say understood, but when an argument is based on vitriol and small mindedness there isn't that much to understand.

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

This is absolutely categorically incorrect.

The religion's the chicken, the people are the eggs.

Despite your protestations to the contrary, you really haven't through most of your posts through, other than to attempt to provoke

As 'concepts' most religions have generically similar ideals, though the details will vary. They are after all a reflection of the people who create them, not of gods. As Einstein pointed out, not many people will have an original thought, and so it has been down the millennia with religions.

Within religions, there are always those that seek to use it as a means to control, as a powerbase.

The atrocities that ensue in the name of religions are generally not a reflection of the ideals of that religion, but a reflection of the intolerance and bigotry of mere man to another man.

 

[nath]

No. Your position is the part of a ... book that you remember.

A bit rich coming from someone religious, no?

 

[old.Tohtori]

Religious people live by the guidelines set by other people.

Atheists live by guidelines set by other people (even if it's just avoiding religion, and hating it it seems )

Agnostics live by guidelines set by other people. (even if it's just sitting on the fence)

If you follow any trend, fashion, musical genre(with passion), TV show, visit a forum, and so on, you're leading by some set example.

That's life really, set example.

There are two kinds of people in this world regarding this discussion;

Those who butt in.
Those who let live.

 

[Turamber]

A bit rich coming from someone religious, no?

Not really. I'm not a Catholic yet I can see how that religion has enriched mankind. Yes Catholics have also done some dubious things, and some reprehensible things - the sack of Constantinople by the Fourth Crusade for example.

But to suggest that people would be better off if they destroyed the Vatican ... is quite absurd. As absurd as Dawkins claim that religion has done no good. A claim so extremis that it cannot possibly be true and is, in reality, just designed to sell books to the weak minded.

 

[nath]

First of all, I'm not siding with Scouse regarding turning Vatican city in to a car park, I don't think that's a very good idea at all. A petting zoo would be much better (j/k).

Dawkins claim that religion has done no good. A claim so extremis that it cannot possibly be true and is, in reality, just designed to sell books to the weak minded.

It's been said an awful lot (though perhaps not by you, I don't know if you share this opinion or not) that bad things aren't done by religion but merely in religions name and that they're very much not the same thing. Surely if religion doesn't see fit to accept all the bad things that it's responsible for* then it's not right for it to accept the good things. After all, ultimately, regardless of the motivation it's just people doing what people do.





*Again, until you confirm this is the way you think I'm not projecting these opinions on to you.