Say goodbye to SB's and stealth wars.

[Gekul]

Originally posted by Danyan
- Nightshade stun is even shorter, your point?

- Taking thrust to 50 actually costs more points even considering the extra spec points that infils get than taking LA to 39 (It costs 495 points to raise a skill from 39 to 50, infils get approximately 389 extra points) meaning they have less for cs/envenom/dw.

- Shadowblades have more strength to start with due to access to the norse race.

- Nightshades stun is slightly shorter, but directly from an evade. I didn't include nightshades however, mainly because the majority of whiners are albion. Mythic, being Mythic, have decided to balance nightshades with realm abilities, so they have advantages too.

- 453 extra points actually. Thrust is a main weapon skill and therefore affects their damage with CS, thrust and DW styles, as well as increased weaponskill to help get through defences.
LA affects LA obviously, it increases the base damage with spec so affects all damage. But it increases it only after gutting the damage completely. Oh, and LA spec raises weaponskill as well; on the left hand!.

- 10 more strength on a Norse compared to a Briton. Strength is an assasins tertiary stat, I could similarly mention saracens 80 dex, which won't be affected by poison, and goes up every level.

 

[Gekul]

Originally posted by old.Cher

from a ns's point of view, its crap that we have to get rr5 before even being considered as being able to kill an inf or sb of similer realm rank, and infs and sbs normally hand my arse to me,

Totally agree, 50 takes long enough, and then rr5 too. Ridiculous imo.

 

[Danya]

NS gets 5 sec stun, SB gets 7 sec stun, inf gets 9 sec stun. So inf stun is only slightly longer than SB by your reckoning. Regardless not all infs have DF and you can't use it if you CDed anyway. Not to mention it can be purged.

Where's the 453 number actually from? I've seen it before but when I made my earlier post I couldn't remember it so worked it out and got 389. The LA reduction isn't really that harsh, at worst you're at 60% base damage, though most will have 75% or more. Also LA styles are still better than any others in the game (except comeback) to make up for the lower base damage, just not as much better as they once were.

Also 10 more con on a norse, giving more HP, and SBs get their 5% hp bonus for being SBs on top of that.

 

[Solid]

Talen I shall try not to be agressive or abusive for your benefit

Please explain what Infiltators do that is so skillful compared to our...as you call it... two button bashing for the "I WIN".

Before you accused us of spamming "DF4tehwin", which is false, now you call us unskilled 2 style chain comboing button bashers.

WTF does the 50 Thrust or Slash infil do thats so SKILLFUL?

Danyan what are you on about regarding Inf specpoints? An infil (eg RR6 Talen) can spec and usually DOES spec as follows:
DW for an Infil doesnt grant them ANY extra damage, so they can technically dual wield without any damage penalty with a DW spec of 1
Their Mainhand Base damage is NOT reduced by dual wielding, and their offhand Base Damage is not defined by their DW spec.

Considering most Infs get 50 weaponspec, they are hitting at maximum possible damage with their mainhand and offhand

50 Weapon (RR6 = 66)
34 Stealth (RR6 = 50)
34 Env (RR6 = 50)
39 CS (RR6 = 55)
30 DW (RR6 = 46)

(all without ANY autotraining)

If a Sb wanted to try and match that, whilst getting max weaponskill:

50 Weapon (RR6 = 66)
34 Stealth (RR6 = 50)
34 Env (RR6 = 50)
39 CS (RR6 = 55)
4 LA (RR6 = 20)

(Again without any autotraining)

Shadowblades cant get anywhere near that and viably use an off hand axe, dont have Str/Dex based Thrust option, dont have good RA's to compensate, dont have the option of a damage type thats vulnerable to any Inf.

We could go:

44 Weapon (RR6 = 60)
34 Stealth (RR6 = 50)
34 Env (RR6 = 50)
34 CS (RR6 = 50)
30 DW (RR6 = 46)

But then we suffer from significantly lower weaponskill, no useable LA styles, lower Perf and CS styles, no Stunning Stab.

Instead we get 72 unbuffed hp and a 2H Perf *advantage* as a reward. Yes with the 40% Style Damage reduction to LA, it can NO LONGER be considered an advantage.

I am not talking about pre 1.62 anymore, the patch has gone live, Shadowblades are in a world of hurt, they cannot compete with Infs or NS with ANY spec.

Critblades were never competitive in the assassin wars, now SZ, 5spec, soulblade are not competitive either.

All those things SB lacked that were considered overcompensated for by the *overpowered* LA line is no longer true.

LA is no longer an advantage to SB's and we now fall well below par in the traingle.

Danyan Frosty Gaze is 6 sec stun, 2nd in a chain, Diamondback and Dragonfang are reactionary stuns and are both functionally better stun styles.

Weaponskill is not somethong to be overlooked, a Infiltrator can get all the skills he wants AND achieve 50 weaponspec.

Weaponskill directly effects your opponents chance to evade, Infs with their 50spec rarely get evaded by shadwblades, compared to 5spec Shadowblades (the only direct Inf equivalent spec) with their 34-39 weaponspec get evaded loads by infs.

50 Slash Saracen has more weaponskill than a 39 Axe Norseman
50 Thrust Saracen has insanely more weaponspec than a 39 or even a 50 Axe norseman.

I did the calculations on the hp difference, 0.2hp per con equates to 60hp diff between Norse and Briton at lev 50 with capped Con and +hp.

Raises to 72HP with aug con 2 and toughness 2
Raises to 180hp when each is fully buffed by a buffbot

Perhaps a Thrust and Slashs infil cares to share their unbufed and fully buffed weaponskill? I can assure you its well above what a shadowblade is capable of.

Anyway in summation post 1.62 dual wielding SB (the only way a SB could compete in pre 1.62 assassin wars was as a dual wielder):

Significantly lower Weaponspec and weaponskill than Classic inf
40% less LA STYLE damage
Lower CS spec (no Stunning Stab, lower Perf cap/damage) than Classic Inf
No useable LA styles unless we sacrifice even more weaponspec and CS spec
No access to Str/Dex based weapons
No access to an alternative Damage Type from Slash
No decent Unique RA
No uber RA's like nightshades Avoid Pain, no chance to crit on DoTs like NS with their RA

Our advantages over the other 2 assasins:

ONE High Con and Str starting race choice
Free 2H
0.2 extra hp per Con
Free haste in LA style damage

Kinda evident that the scales simply do not balance anymore.

 

[amazingsteve]

Originally posted by old.Emma
/em prays for an uber middy love patch

Yes 1.62 was a real uber Hibbie love patch. It´s like taking out a girl and when you get there you find out she has invited one of her friends to come along

 

[Danya]

Originally posted by Solid
Danyan what are you on about regarding Inf specpoints? An infil (eg RR6 Talen) can spec and usually DOES spec as follows:
DW for an Infil doesnt grant them ANY extra damage, so they can technically dual wield without any damage penalty with a DW spec of 1
Their Mainhand Base damage is NOT reduced by dual wielding, and their offhand Base Damage is not defined by their DW spec.

Err solid, the way you talk it sounds like you see DW as doing nothing at all to base damage, that's not true. For a start "DW for an Infil doesnt grant them ANY extra damage" is totally false, speccing DW increases chance to hit with your offhand, which increases damage (not hitting is quite a severe damage penalty, of the order of 100%, plus you don't hand your offhand poison). An infil doesn't get a mainhand damage penalty from low DW, but they do get a significant penalty to offhand damage in the form of lower swing rate and they have difficulty landing an offhand poison, which can make a significant difference.
So, technically, an inf with 1 DW will have a lot less damage output than an inf with 50, all other things being equal.


Frosty Gaze is 7 seconds, not 6:
http://www.camelotherald.com/styles/style.php?s=170

Frosty Gaze
Left Axe - available at spec level 39
Opening: Comeback
Medium bonus to chance to hit target.
Fatigue used: Medium
Bonus damage: Low
Special: Stunned


Stuns the target for a brief period of time.
Resist type: N/A
Duration: 7 seconds

 

[Solid]

Danyan, compared to LA, DW spec ONLY grants an inf the chance to swing, nothing else, it doesnt scale their damage whatsoever, technically it does not increase the damage they CAN do.
It does not increase their variance on damage, doesnt increase their CAP damage, doesnt increase their BASE damage and doesnt effect their offhand weaponskill figure. All that damage potential is calculated off the MAINHAND weaponspec.

As you said DW is an all or nothing thing, if they swing, they hit for max damage thats calculated off their main weaponspec.

LA damage is based on LA spec: LA base damage is directly based off LA spec, LA damage cap is based off LA spec, LA has nothing to do with your MAIN HAND weaponspec.

50 Weaponspec 30 DW 39 CS for an inf is monstrously greater than 44 Weapon 30 LA 34 CS for an equivalent SB
its also greater than 39 Weap 39 LA 34 CS post 1.62.

I will assume that cos you only picked at niggly things from my post, such as a 1sec Stun diff and what DW spec EFFECTIVELY equates to, that you dont consider the rest of what I said as bullshit?

 

[old.Tohtori]

 

[Gekul]

Originally posted by Solid
I will assume that cos you only picked at niggly things from my post, such as a 1sec Stun diff and what DW spec EFFECTIVELY equates to, that you dont consider the rest of what I said as bullshit?

It appears that's Danyans style.

NS gets 5 sec stun, SB gets 7 sec stun, inf gets 9 sec stun. So inf stun is only slightly longer than SB by your reckoning. Regardless not all infs have DF and you can't use it if you CDed anyway. Not to mention it can be purged.

Nightshades stun directly from an evade, shadowblades from a 2 style chain. The duration difference is offset by this point. A stun directly from an evade is a lot more useful than a 2 style chain, which makes 9s from one ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that shadowblades have to spec to 39 in our duel wield line to get it. With LA as it is, it just won't be worth it.
Not all infs have DF, not all shadowblades have FG. What's your point?
I have heard some infiltrators will not use CD so that they can use DF later. I don't think many shadowblades could bank on landing frostygaze as reliably.
It can be purged, like shield slams can be purged, like mezzes and castable stuns can be purged. Would be a decent argument if you only met a class that could CC once every 30 minutes.

Also LA styles are still better than any others in the game (except comeback) to make up for the lower base damage, just not as much better as they once were.

This simply isn't true. CS styles do more in most cases, except for doublefrost, which isn't what won fights pre 1.62 anyway. Certainly not enough more to justify lowering practically all skill lines.

What many seem to forget, is LA is our duel wield line. And it costs spec points to raise it, people speak as if shadowblades get 39 LA for free.

 

[Myddrin]

Solid RE: Thrust Infil weaponskill

My level 50 infil's (Artful) weaponskill is about 1017. His spec is Thrust 50, CS 39, DW 21. Buffed skill - I can't remember as I play mostly unbuffed so can't help you out with that number....its somewhere over 1200 though I think. Will get some loving from a cleric and post here maybe.

Also, have specced into Duellists Reflxes 3 (which does not seem to make any change to weapon skill, which is quite odd) so with bonuses etc should be about 50 DW.

Hope this helps in some way, cheers

 

[Danya]

Originally posted by Solid
I will assume that cos you only picked at niggly things from my post, such as a 1sec Stun diff and what DW spec EFFECTIVELY equates to, that you dont consider the rest of what I said as bullshit?

No it means I consider your first point flawed and as the rest of your post was then based on that it was irrelevant so I didn't reply to it. If you want to just throw insults though, go ahead. I'll just say "cry more n00b".

 

[Solid]

show me where i insulted you in my post please

 

[Danya]

The bit I quoted.

Regardless, you're not listening to what I'm saying so I'll save my breath. You're too caught up in self-pity over not being "teh ubar" that you won't accept any other viewpoint as yours than having any validity whatsoever.

 

[old.Elrond]

Fact is that infiltrators and ns, with their stuns in the main weapon line and the much more flexible DW/CD is far superior to LA...even more so now.

edit: danyan you are beginning to look like an ignorant VN troll....stop making dumb 'teh ubar' and 'cry more' comments as you are starting to look like an arse.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Solid
Instead we get 72 unbuffed hp ... I did the calculations on the hp difference, 0.2hp per con equates to 60hp diff between Norse and Briton at lev 50 with capped Con and +hp.

Raises to 72HP with aug con 2 and toughness 2
Raises to 180hp when each is fully buffed by a buffbot

incorrect calculations.

HP formula for rogues is (with a bit of simplification of the rounding):

Total HP = (1 + [SB]*0.05)*(20 + 10.8*[level] + 0.072*[level]*([Con] - max(0, 50 - [Base Con]))*(1 + [Toughness]*0.03) + [Item HP]

where:
[SB] = 1 if you are a SB, 0 otherwise
[level] = chars level
[Con] = Total Con
[Base Con] = Con without any items or buffs
[Toughness] = level of Toughness
[Item HP] = +hp from items.


Thus an unbuffed level 50 Briton Inf with +10 Con at creation, Aug Con 2 and Toughness 2 has 1392 hp
An unbuffed level 50 Norse SB with +10 Con at creation, Aug Con 2 and Toughness 2 has 1492 hp.

I.E. Exactly 100hp more

When buffed, they have 1869 and 1993 respectively, so a 124hp difference buffed.


(next patch buffs aren't capped the same, so the buffed values will be higher)





(Not going to comment on the rest of the same-old-crap in this thread. Neither side is really being objective, so it's mostly pointless drivel)

 

[Solid]

lol danyan now your just bare faced lying, I HAVE NOT insulted you.

FFS I posted some background info to help backup my opinions and I DID NOT insult anyone personally, and I get accused of fabrication and lies, yet your ok to go round saying "cry more n00b" and not really tabling a standpoint or your background info to support it.

and no, mentioning LA style growth rates is NO LONGER a valid argument to use in relation to Shadowblades and how "uber" you perceive them to be.

Please tell me how me ACCURATELY stating that DW spec does not change damage or variance, and quiting FG as 6 sec as opposed to 7sec makes ALL my other points invalid?

I sure would like to understand your logic process.

 

[Solid]

Pin your figures look accurate mate, my caps on my SB when he had Toughness 2 and Aug Con 2 were exactly what you posted (with buffed hp cap jumping by 6 for Mastery of Arcane 2 on my Shaman).

I have always been under the impression BS got 0.2 extra con per hp (tested with swapping +Con items in and out)

Your equation indicates a 5% hp boost, is that 5% to the total Constitution figure or what? not sure where the 5% is applied (tho I do believe your equation to be accurate, just dunno what your variables point to)

BTW whats the unbuffed HP diff of +10 creation Norse over +10 Creation Briton without factoring any RA's? (ie no Aug Con and no Toughness)

And do you have an equation for Weaponskill by anychance?

 

[Damon_D]

how is that peopel who dont play a SB think they know the most about them... beat's me..realy it does

 

[old.Elrond]

Pin's formula looks almost spot on...well I guess it is but I seem to have 1494 and 1997 when buffed (2 from +hp item cap) Must be a rounding thing

 

[Farnis]

Originally posted by -yoda-
where as all you unskilled "which is basicialy what u r" sb's do is run upto somebody stealthed and just hack away with your uber anytime styles . as for the guy who said casters beware we comming for you cos thats all we will be able to kill IMHO thats all you should be able to kill is other stealthers "mins/bow classes/ other assasins, and casters

Thanks for the compliment..and by the way exactly what classes do you think you should be able to kill with

a) your friar
b) your Theurgist

If I said that you should be able to only kill assassins with your Friar or only tanks with your Theurgist would that be ok for you?

No, instead you have a friar who if staff/aug speccd can duel any one to death (with I might say an overpowered anytime style in boon) if buffs arent involved and a theurgist who can nuke anyone.

If you want to talk convoluted bullsh1t about paper scissors stone then at least point try and justify your own classes first.

 

[Pin]

The formula is accurate except for rounding. The game takes each source of Con separately, applies Toughness, then rounds, then sums, but this makes for a messy formula and what I posted will be accurate to within ~1-3hp depending on Toughness level.

Originally posted by Solid
Your equation indicates a 5% hp boost, is that 5% to the total Constitution figure or what? not sure where the 5% is applied (tho I do believe your equation to be accurate, just dunno what your variables point to)

BTW whats the unbuffed HP diff of +10 creation Norse over +10 Creation Briton without factoring any RA's? (ie no Aug Con and no Toughness)

And do you have an equation for Weaponskill by anychance?

The boost is 5% on everything except [Item HP].

Without RAs the numbers are 1282 and 1373, so 91hp difference.


I haven't worked out an equation for Weaponskill, but I'm thinking of doing so just because of the number of times I see it requested..... When I find time.

 

[Pin]

And should anyone in here care, the HP formulae for other classes is the same as that, except replace the 10.8 and 0.072.

e.g. My Reaver (hybrid) uses 11.4 and 0.076. Casters use 8.4 and 0.056.