Savages works as intended :E

[Sycho]

People who are defending savages:

a) obviously haven't been hit by them often.
b) do not use the right equipment/buffs.
c) are stupid.
d) do not realise how sub par other light tanks are to them.

The same would be for valewalkers/reavers i reckon if they had determination too, which will happen in frontiers but the only thing is savages can constantly do good damage in some situations, a reaver/valewalker mainly has to rely on positionals.(ok the savage side chain has 50-60% more style bonus than wild call but wild call has roughly same bonus as ragnarok)

Minstrels are only overpowered 1vs1 not in group rvr just like bd's.

 

[Ilum]

Clan's call sure as hell aint 6s Ilum, I can assure you about that... Unless I'm mistaken it should be 4s stun

And nah, light tanks dont need to use "good" styles in order to deal decent damage... Normal light tanks have *one* slight advantage compared to savages, they have a predictable damage output. When as a savage you could (theoretically) land only single hits throughout a entire fight and then even with the DPS/haste shouts you wont outdamage any merc/zerker/BM which is worth their salt. :l

They have access to 2 damage types so yeah they are better then your average tank from that part but they dont have access to *all* as that would include crush damage as well which they cant get from speccing h2h.

The greatest problem about savages have and will always be their potential damage. The DPS shout (as I said earlier) makes all the difference in order to provide a superior damage output when combined with the potential quad hits. (Even if they have inferior weaponskill compared to other tanks they are still *far* better then any other realm counterpart).

Ok, a few errors slipped into my post, but point still stands. And light tanks dont have a more predictable damage output than a Savage. Maybe Zerkers do, as they always dual hit. Mercs can also go around an entire fight only landing mainhand hits. The only thing thats unpredictable, is whether the Savage will hit a bit harder than other light tanks, or a lot harder than other light tanks.

 

[Ormorof]

Remove the crits and the dmg is still insane compared to anything melee:ish in daoc so far.

Makes old zerks look like cliff beetle dmg tbh

i did notice though that not many people whined about savages until AFTER zerkers got nerfed

 

[Garok]

The same would be for valewalkers/reavers i reckon if they had determination too, which will happen in frontiers but the only thing is savages can constantly do good damage in some situations, a reaver/valewalker mainly has to rely on positionals.(ok the savage side chain has 50-60% more style bonus than wild call but wild call has roughly same bonus as ragnarok)

Minstrels are only overpowered 1vs1 not in group rvr just like bd's.

The main problem with reavers/valewalkers is the extra damage come's in the form of a Proc (the effect dependant on the style). How ever its checked against the enemys resists..... but saying that .. 2x reavers hitting with levi with Soc /assisting with 50% cold debuff could be mildly evil.

 

[PJS]

Im still waiting to be single hit by a savage in RvR playing a caster. 50% hits on me are quads, 40% triples (or quads that didnt need the 4th hit because the 3rd killed me), rest doubles.
Great fun fully druid buffed with all self buffs up -> dead in 0s from 1 savage on more than one occasion. Fun seeing the wtf's from the healers in /g afterwards as well. Working as intended.

Oh and nothing you can say can justify close on 2k damage in one round. THE DRAGONS DONT HIT THAT HARD. A DOUBLE HIT FROM ITET DOESNT HIT THAT HARD. Players should not be doing more damage in one swing than the hardest epic mobs in the game.

 

[PJS]

i did notice though that not many people whined about savages until AFTER zerkers got nerfed

If there isnt a concerted effort to Mythic on ONE topic at a time to get something fixed THEY DONT BOTHER. :touch:

 

[remi]

as soon as your healers quit the interrupt spam :x We can't do shit being interrupted all the time, Zerach just gets rezzed and sticks some caster waiting for BG to drop.

im also hitting a BGed caster, thus elendar is soloing your group, must feel shit, hu?

 

[Sarnat]

50% hits on me are quads, 40% triples (or quads that didnt need the 4th hit because the 3rd killed me), rest doubles.

Get a headcheck.

 

[Ilum]

im also hitting a BGed caster, thus elendar is soloing your group, must feel shit, hu?

doesnt it make you feel like shit if your grp has 2 ppl not contributing shit and still you manage to win?

 

[Leleith]

i did notice though that not many people whined about savages until AFTER zerkers got nerfed

Because there werent many of them at the time. Many of the "WTFPWNIKNOWHOWTOASSIST!!!1!!1"-ppl played zerker, and didnt see much point (or could even be arsed) rolling another meleer, since zerkers already did sick damage. When zerks got a punch in the face, savages started popping up like mushrooms from the ground.

 

[Tuppe]

remind some old post when archers was good.
when some send post to mythic and ask why his lvl 40 or 43? char was allmost killed when he sit and lvl 50 shoot him whit bow, we all know what happend.

look like peeps are forgetting target was lvl50? nope, sc armour? maxed resists and mids have relics.
what happend when inf do pa to lvl 43 caster? or any lvl 50 carrying atleast epic and some 99% qual weapons.

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Sycho
People who are defending savages:

a) obviously haven't been hit by them often.
b) do not use the right equipment/buffs.
c) are stupid.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

i give shit to savages but its so funny look this kind post, when someone is not same side what you? he is stupid?.
every question what you did can ask from those who get those insane dmgs what savage deal did they still used lowbie armour what get /level? and forget buy better after pl session from necro?

maybe zerk swing everytime both weapon but whit dmg penalty, and only whit 1 good positional style comparing other light tanks.
if we have savage why there is minstrell in albs? 3 rogue class and 2 what can climb walls, we all know how albs love run around whit groups 1-2 minst and copple scouts, rest fotm infs.

luckily albs have necro, what only mages can kill sometimes, but melees only when 7+.
overpowered? nah when there is so many bugs how pet move around so let necros be how they are, sadly there is just alott more pets classes who suffer same problems but dont come even close necro.

 

[Sycho]

Tuppe i have played 50 savage/50 zerk/50 bm/50 merc, savage hitted way harder than the other three by 50% or so sometimes, that wasn't aimed at all people but some in the thread, necro again is overpowered vs melee(since pets have no stat caps) and 1vs1 or 3 tanks vs it, but again is like bonedancer, normal in groups.

Notice how mythic make all SI classes powerful in certain situations compared to the classes that were already available, they probably made savages strong to keep some of the former zerks still playing, however some zerks didn't do this and still realise they are a nice class which they are.

I am not on anyone's side or whatever, but there is no doubt they need a nerf, i proved this with the growth rate table even, as i said earlier if a reaver/valewalker had determination i think they would be overpowered too in some ways.

No melee class should have the potential to hit 1k-1500 at 1.5s even if it's not common it's crazy, inf are a strong class too and overpowered with their 9s stun with buffs, but that gets nerfed soon and rightly so, i agree zerks need a good side style or chain but still their behind chain is very nice.

With the new expansion coming mythic again will probably put powerful classes in daoc without testing them or do it on purpose to try get people playing longer, as i said it's not midgard's fault for using savages i am sure others would since they are their best tanks.

 

[WiZe^]

Well skalds can hit hard to
ouchs ?


Uriron Ison

 

[Driwen]

I am not on anyone's side or whatever, but there is no doubt they need a nerf, i proved this with the growth rate table even,

last time i checked H2H growth rates were nothing special, but might be wrong, so wouldnt mind seeing the list.

 

[Svartmetall]

And light tanks dont have a more predictable damage output than a Savage.

Yes, they do. I actually stopped playing my Savage in favour of my Zerk, specifically because the Zerk's damage output is more consistent (plus the Zerk was actually a lot more fun than the Savage, Hamster Mode is just great). Hell, my Thane hits more consistently than my Savage.

Maybe Zerkers do, as they always dual hit.

No. Zerks always dual swing, they definitely do not hit every swing. APR tests I have seen on VN Boards showed that there was no discernible difference in landed-hit rate between BMs, Mercs and Berserkers at 50. If you play a Zerk you'll also see how many mainhand swings simply do not connect and you just get the unstyled offhand connecting, even at 50.

Mercs can also go around an entire fight only landing mainhand hits.

Yeah, and Savages can land 7-10 single hits in a row. Savage damage is way too streaky, they can be UBEROMGWTFPWN one minute (which gets screenshotted and used as whine material by people who have never played a Savage) and go wiff wiff wiff single wiff single wiff wiff the next. Anyone who has actually played a Savage will tell you this. I'd be quite happy if Savage damage was made more consistent; lower the maximum damage ceiling but have a lot more hits connecting. You'd get few if any of the whine-inducing mega quads (and again, anyone who actually plays a Savage - and how many of the anti-Savage whiners have ever done that? - will tell you that quads are extrememly rare now) and have far less of the wiff streaks and singles.

The Savage nerf was very badly thought out; high RR Savages could still deliver the whine-inducing mega hits when very heavily buffed and constantly healed, but in almost all other situations the class was hit way too hard with the huge buff cost, the WS nerf for 2H Savages, the ghastly 15 second buff duration, the ridiculous you-don't-know-if-it's-happening taunt etc etc. So a class that was causing complaints at high RR would still do exactly the same damage output, merely requiring more healing; and every other Savage lower down suffered for it. Adjusting a class purely based on the performance of uber-buffed high RR examples is never a good idea.

 

[Tomtefan]

People who are defending savages:

a) obviously haven't been hit by them often.
b) do not use the right equipment/buffs.
c) are stupid.
d) do not realise how sub par other light tanks are to them.

The same would be for valewalkers/reavers i reckon if they had determination too, which will happen in frontiers but the only thing is savages can constantly do good damage in some situations, a reaver/valewalker mainly has to rely on positionals.(ok the savage side chain has 50-60% more style bonus than wild call but wild call has roughly same bonus as ragnarok)

Minstrels are only overpowered 1vs1 not in group rvr just like bd's.

Wild call sure as hell aint 0.9 style bonus, if so I would understand if people just spammed it all the time when they play their savage (this would make wild call approximately as good as dia slash which is 0.95 and really I dont believe that ).

There are few realistic nerfs to be applied to the class though... If you increase shoutcost further then PvE as a savage without a bot is truly doomed there (it almost is already due to obscene downtime). Removing the DPS shout would severly nerf the savagery line and would require a entire rebalancing of the line in order to avoid another LA nerf which did hit SBs a bit too hard when it was released. Reducing multihit chance even more would contradict the entire point of speccing h2h as they already have the lowest APR ingame. Reducing their baseweaponskill wouldn't still prevent them from landing these high hits on casters etc but it would nerf their pve capability quite much depending upon the reduction of WS.

Ok, a few errors slipped into my post, but point still stands. And light tanks dont have a more predictable damage output than a Savage. Maybe Zerkers do, as they always dual hit. Mercs can also go around an entire fight only landing mainhand hits. The only thing thats unpredictable, is whether the Savage will hit a bit harder than other light tanks, or a lot harder than other light tanks.

The entire point of my statement is that savages run around with 1700~ weaponskill (give/take some) and mercs/BMs run around with 2100+? The formula for damage is quite simple when comparing weaponskill:

Percentual difference in weaponskill = Percentual difference in damage.
Someone with 1100 ws compared to 1000ws should do close to 10% more damage overall when compared to that 1000ws guy. Someone with 2100+ would do 23-24% more damage then someone that runs around with 1700ws (still overall). However the DPS shout+haste shout change this calculation slightly. Haste improves their base damage over time by 32% but losing some of their style damage (I couldn't remember the exact formula). DPS shout affects their entire damage by 21% which modifies this base damage even further. 1.21 * 0.32 = 0,3872 = total savage damage boost of their damage, of course they lose style bonus but we can safely assume that they still gain at least 30% damage from those shouts combined without any problem.

Adding crits into the calculation enables the class to deal massive damage with the 30%~ damage bonus from their shouts and hence makes it superior to other light tanks. (Mercs/BMs has still a possibility to get haste though but I ignored that fact in this calculation).

 

[Yussef]

Seems there is a Celestius Greave with a DD/Snare proc :|

 

[Urme the Legend]

Percentual difference in weaponskill = Percentual difference in damage.

Give link to this info please.

I thought WS was only for how hard your enemy had to evade/block/parry your hits etc.. not that it raised the dmg?..

 

[Dorin]

Give link to this info please.

I thought WS was only for how hard your enemy had to evade/block/parry your hits etc.. not that it raised the dmg?..

thought ws = will you land your hit through the above mentioned defensive stuff + the chance to hit closer to your cap.

someone explain plz

 

[Svartmetall]

Far as I'm aware, WS is only a factor in to-hit/parry etc., it has no effect on actual DPS from the character involved.

Like 2H Savages - their WS was nerfed by at least 10%, so they hit just as hard when they actually hit (since the Str and weapon are the same) but now they miss more/are parried more/are evaded more because of the lower WS.

 

[PJS]

Get a headcheck.

Says the mid caster whos never been on the receiving end of a savage in proper RvR. >I< have never (or so rare that I didnt notice) been single hit by a savage playing a caster. This is a fairly small sample of course (hence its not really statistically significant), Im not RvRing 24/7 vs savages and I try my best to stay away from them oddly enough, but those figures are roughly accurate in my particular case based on quantitative data.
Not sure what kind of check you need to get but its you that needs one not me.
I'd love to be lying and have once lasted more than 1.5s to a single savage with some remote chance of getting healed.

 

[Kreig]

Fake.

A 46 sorc won't have that much HP, so I'm sure he styled 1st hit, then (since he attacks at 1.5s speed) had a tiny lagspike, and hits again (dual, unstyled) while in that tiny lagspike the sorc got spreadhealed.

Same with the 2nd figure, imo.

Im guessing a Cleric had BoL activated, which would compensate for the extra hp. As soon as dmg is done BoL would automatically heal it thus looking liek the 46sorc had more hp than actual.

 

[remi]

doesnt it make you feel like shit if your grp has 2 ppl not contributing shit and still you manage to win?

called gamedesign...(GRAPPLE OK)

 

[Yussef]

Me and Tomtefan done a quick WS test. We basically tested how WS effected damage, I increased my WS by 10% and average damage increased by 10% also. Tested it a few ways, with a 10% WS decrease and noticed the damage went down by 10% also etc. Using the same target/sample sizes and so forth.

 

[Urme the Legend]

Me and Tomtefan done a quick WS test. We basically tested how WS effected damage, I increased my WS by 10% and average damage increased by 10% also. Tested it a few ways, with a 10% WS decrease and noticed the damage went down by 10% also etc. Using the same target/sample sizes and so forth.

Ain't that because when you raise your str/dex or whatever effects your weapondmg you raise both WS and dmg...

If I would have 1400 WS and 360str... would I hit harder if my WS somehow raised to 2100 but my str stayed at 360? ...

 

[Shike]

Ain't that because when you raise your str/dex or whatever effects your weapondmg you raise both WS and dmg...

If I would have 1400 WS and 360str... would I hit harder if my WS somehow raised to 2100 but my str stayed at 360? ...

You would hit harder yep, ding a realmrank and get bonus from it and yep, you will hit alittle bit harder afaik if I remember correctly, was like that with bow too on my ranger, unlike for casters where the delve set the cap. Quite easy to test aswell btw, use a crafted wep with +sword, then same one without +sword.

Btw, DR+Savage=causing probs probably. Sort that and quadrate etc is lowered quite abit.

 

[Sycho]

I tested this week with my merc about how much str has effect on my damage, worked out 1 str=0.25% damage roughly.So with ToA overcap a pure tank/light tank can get 6% or so more damage with the 25 extra strength which is also 95-100ws.(except for a warrior? and this is also towards tanks who are using a str base weapon of course)

Tomte maybe that growth rate is wrong for wildcall, but it still outhits any anytime i seen in daoc, i think the savage i played capped under diamond slash with it but i am guessing around 0.80 or so.Never the less with the dps buff savage weapons become the equivalent of 21.5dps, then when they use this dps shout since their base damage rises so does their styled damage, exactly the same way melee damage from ToA items increase it.

 

[Sagano]

when albs had all the str relics on prydwen my healer died in 1s to faderullan and dreami too
same case when lul stops against eclipse ...

its not the class its the rr that makes the biggest difference

and albs should be the last ones to whine since you have BoF + SoS to counter any meleegrp...

 

[Ilum]

called gamedesign...(GRAPPLE OK)

Oh i thought you were just moping at the bodyguarded caster

 

[Tareregion]

im also hitting a BGed caster, thus elendar is soloing your group, must feel shit, hu?

actually, we only have one bodyguard =) And zerach and you sure as hell ain't assisting, you most of the time attack our grappling warden