RvR on Pry = Dead

[Zapsi]

Hell, HDS even manages to beat EL sometimes now, figure that :s

QUOTE]

Great we will work harder El had a smaller adjustment and if u look at group u prob see many very low RR is keyspots atm, but we on track

 

[Moriath]

surely its good tactics to win ... and if u need more than 1fg to win and run away get reinforcements and beat the opposition its all good.

To try and take a high rr opt'd group on with a random / low rr group is silly so ofc the opt'd fg are going to get 2-3 fg attacking them its the only way that the non opt'd groups can survive.

To complain that RvR is dead when it patently isn't is silly. Just because its not being played how you like it doesn't mean its dead it means that more than 8 ppl are having a good time.

It always sucks being on the losing side and now the opt'd group sets are starting to see how its felt for the vast majority of the server population for the last few months.

Welcome to the revolution.

 

[Fadeh]

Zerg revolution?

Oh well, not much time left for the patch that kills prydwen.

 

[Jarakin]

surely its good tactics to win ... and if u need more than 1fg to win and run away get reinforcements and beat the opposition its all good.

To try and take a high rr opt'd group on with a random / low rr group is silly so ofc the opt'd fg are going to get 2-3 fg attacking them its the only way that the non opt'd groups can survive.

To complain that RvR is dead when it patently isn't is silly. Just because its not being played how you like it doesn't mean its dead it means that more than 8 ppl are having a good time.

It always sucks being on the losing side and now the opt'd group sets are starting to see how its felt for the vast majority of the server population for the last few months.

Welcome to the revolution.

Basically with that you're saying that zerging the enemy = good tactics. Why not just put a little effort in and make opted groups so you're able to compete more and have some fun doing so. Say it with me now children: Zerging is boring! Very good, class dismissed. :kissit:

 

[Bubble]

Vestex was talking about our Group
Trying to run in 1FG and only finding zergs(including alb zerg)

Our group logged after 2 hours of this crap and around 1800rps totel for the evening(thats when our assist train murdered RR1 zerg members)

 

[Durgi]

What complete and utter tripe! I'm sorry all this garbage about zergs everywhere killing rvr is total tosh. Its actually good too see hibs about in numbers its good too see the more casual mids once again getting out there and getting stuck in. Its good too see more albs gettign stuck in. RvR was designed to be a conflicted between realms hence its called Realm vs Realm.. its not called opted group vs opted group. So should Midgard, Albion or Hibernia troops decide that there is infact safety in numbers. They have every damn right too run round in groups of a hundred if the so please. they are going out there and sticking it too the enemy, grinding them under foot and good on them for it, and surprise surprise the ones doing all the whining about large numbers of enemies sticking together out of fear of their talentless opted groups, are in fact the rp centric egotistical zerglings from all realms whom seem too consider Realm vs Realm combat as nothing more than Team Quake death match.. and spend their time grinding poor half groups and fall groups of casual players under foot in their own quest for more realm points.

Of course your going too flame me for such comments. But like i give a pair of fetid dingo's kidneys about the fact. In the end of the day you elitist rvr rp whores have almost destroyed this server. With your opted groups.. Opted.. personally i call them noob groups cause every single one of you midgard, albion hibernia alike rely on one simple premise for your groups we have more healing than you. 90% of your MA trains have the wit of a monkey in heat. /assist /stick macro'ed/bound on your keybaodr target spam anytime styles.... yeah so much skill. Meanwhile your healers spam spread heal till one side runs out.. yep I'm impressed truely I am. Meanwhile everyone hiding behidn their silly realm abilities and over powered classes. You excluded certain classes from your groups too make the optimised why.. you want more Realm points you don't give a crap about those people who god forbid might play for sake of arguement a Thane, or a Reaver or a Ranger really well. Cause they don't fit into some stupid template that allows you people to generate more rp they are cast aside. Ignored, and in some cases even ridiculed by the likes of you.

Classic quote from certain rvr section of Midgard "We don't help out at keep raids and defences cause our set up is very dull and we don't see the point in attacking a keep with 40 defenders as we're pure melee we won't get many rp for the time we spend doing it"... and I know for a fact the 'leet' alb guilds do the same thing.. when was the last time Public Enemy assisted in the retake of one of albions keep whilst it was defended... err probably never. Your elitest bullshit the lot of you has driven the casual player almost into extinction. So if they wanna go out there and zerg... good on em. I for one have a damn sight more respect for enemies like Steveh.. out there with an Armsmen chopping guys up in roaming rvr, but when a keep needs retaking and some enemies are inside he's there bashing doors and skulls alike. Erodafire likewise running round taking a risk of being savaged to death in seconds in his mage groups, also when theres 40 odd mids sat in a keep he takes the trouble of getting peeps togetehr and giving us a fight for it.

Meanwhile you vultures that rvr guilds float around scavaging realm points on people trying too come join in the fun and have the audacity too demand that 'casual' don't add too your fights cause its not sporting... bullshit it reduces your realm points.

Fader said 'Oh well not long till the patch that will destroy prydwem' again misinformed, rvr guild bollocks. Yeah god forbid the casual rvr/pve guy will do what they do best balance both worlds go of get their artifacts and master abilities and come back and no longer be the push over they were before.. god forbid you won't have anyone too farm for a while and might actually have too take the time and effort in pve too find something that is indeed superior to that which a crafter can make. No that would simply too mcuh too ask instead its a patch that will destroy prydwen. Well for the likes of you elitest gimp i seriously hope it does cause every since you inception on this server you've been nothing but a cancer too it. Heck the 24/7 alb stealth zerg, does more on a realm vs realm basis than you do.

Rant Smurf signing off.

D.

 

[Ilum]

Basically with that you're saying that zerging the enemy = good tactics. Why not just put a little effort in and make opted groups so you're able to compete more and have some fun doing so. Say it with me now children: Zerging is boring! Very good, class dismissed. :kissit:

They say you should be careful what you wish for. Don't think this statement could be any more true than in this case.

Ok, let's say that Albs/Mids follow your advice. What happens?

1) 50% less of these people in RvR, as probably only about half of them got the time to start making opted groups.

2) For the remaining half, they will spend about 25% more camped at PK's and 25% more time levelling new classes for the opted groups, BB's etc.

So we're probably looking at around 75% reductiono of those Zerg masses.

I can live with Zergs, and I understand that non-opted people use numbers to defeat optimization.

 

[Fadeh]

The non elitist-non buffboted "rr9" shadowblade has spoken.

 

[ev0_o]

Great reply durgs, and spot on, i cant see anyone having a decent arguement against that, sums pry up sweet as a nut.

 

[Dook]

What complete and utter tripe! I'm sorry all this garbage about zergs everywhere killing rvr is total tosh. Its actually good too see hibs about in numbers its good too see the more casual mids once again getting out there and getting stuck in. Its good too see more albs gettign stuck in. RvR was designed to be a conflicted between realms hence its called Realm vs Realm.. its not called opted group vs opted group. So should Midgard, Albion or Hibernia troops decide that there is infact safety in numbers. They have every damn right too run round in groups of a hundred if the so please. they are going out there and sticking it too the enemy, grinding them under foot and good on them for it, and surprise surprise the ones doing all the whining about large numbers of enemies sticking together out of fear of their talentless opted groups, are in fact the rp centric egotistical zerglings from all realms whom seem too consider Realm vs Realm combat as nothing more than Team Quake death match.. and spend their time grinding poor half groups and fall groups of casual players under foot in their own quest for more realm points. Of course your going too flame me for such comments. But like i give a pair of fetid dingo's kidneys about the fact. In the end of the day you elitist rvr rp whores have almost destroyed this server. With your opted groups.. Opted.. personally i call them noob groups cause every single one of you midgard, albion hibernia alike rely on one simple premise for your groups we have more healing than you. 90% of your MA trains have the wit of a monkey in heat. /assist /stick macro'ed/bound on your keybaodr target spam anytime styles.... yeah so much skill. Meanwhile your healers spam spread heal till one side runs out.. yep I'm impressed truely I am. Meanwhile everyone hiding behidn their silly realm abilities and over powered classes. You excluded certain classes from your groups too make the optimised why.. you want more Realm points you don't give a crap about those people who god forbid might play for sake of arguement a Thane, or a Reaver or a Ranger really well. Cause they don't fit into some stupid template that allows you people to generate more rp they are cast aside. Ignored, and in some cases even ridiculed by the likes of you. Classic quote from certain rvr section of Midgard "We don't help out at keep raids and defences cause our set up is very dull and we don't see the point in attacking a keep with 40 defenders as we're pure melee we won't get many rp for the time we spend doing it"... and I know for a fact the 'leet' alb guilds do the same thing.. when was the last time Public Enemy assisted in the retake of one of albions keep whilst it was defended... err probably never. Your elitest bullshit the lot of you has driven the casual player almost into extinction. So if they wanna go out there and zerg... good on em. I for one have a damn sight more respect for enemies like Steveh.. out there with an Armsmen chopping guys up in roaming rvr, but when a keep needs retaking and some enemies are inside he's there bashing doors and skulls alike. Erodafire likewise running round taking a risk of being savaged to death in seconds in his mage groups, also when theres 40 odd mids sat in a keep he takes the trouble of getting peeps togetehr and giving us a fight for it. Meanwhile you vultures that rvr guilds float around scavaging realm points on people trying too come join in the fun and have the audacity too demand that 'casual' don't add too your fights cause its not sporting... bullshit it reduces your realm points.

Fader said 'Oh well not long till the patch that will destroy prydwem' again misinformed, rvr guild bollocks. Yeah god forbid the casual rvr/pve guy will do what they do best balance both worlds go of get their artifacts and master abilities and come back and no longer be the push over they were before.. god forbid you won't have anyone too farm for a while and might actually have too take the time and effort in pve too find something that is indeed superior to that which a crafter can make. No that would simply too mcuh too ask instead its a patch that will destroy prydwen. Well for the likes of you elitest gimp i seriously hope it does cause every since you inception on this server you've been nothing but a cancer too it. Heck the 24/7 alb stealth zerg, does more on a realm vs realm basis than you do.

Rant Smurf signing off.

D.

Paragraphs are your friends. :kissit:

Oh and um.. some of it was true, admittedly but most of it was BS. Not surprising coming from Durgi really. :>

Nah seriously though, I can see both sides of the argument here, but Durgi, basing arguments/rants on stereotypes is bad. :<

 

[Ezeine]

RvR is hardly dead atm.

 

[Durgi]

Paragraphs are your friends. :kissit:

Sorry dookster was ona rant type role

 

[Korax]

Imo Prydwen RvR has never been better.
Do we want less people in RvR? Uhhh.. no, ofc not. We know how it is to run around for 2 hours and managing to kill one solo mincer.
Do we want MORE people in RvR? Let me rephrase that question:
Do we want Exal ubah poo asswipe zerg RvR? If you ever tried it, you know the answer is no.

Prydwen RvR = pwn imo

I dislike normal everyday zerging. I like once in a while zerg keep defence and some big battels now and then. Most of all I like fights where skill matters, witch you get in FG vs FG fight that some of you are talking so bad about (for no obvious reason).

FGvGF fights = Fair fights, the feeling of achievement, the feeling of need for revenge etc.

Zerg vs Zerg = zzz, "EVERYONE DO AS MUCH DMG AS YOU CAN SO WE CAN GET RP! NOTHING ELSE MATTERS", NO feeling of achievement at all, you dont find an activety with less teamwork.

 

[Dreami]

At least we don't tell fairy tales about having RR9 SBs like some, *cough* Durgi *cough*.

Maybe we don't assist versus defended keeps, but how many times have we been taking DC or help at relicraids?

 

[Eroda]

I agree with Durgi in that its good that theres so many more people out in rvr atm. Its finally allowing the previously discarded classes to actually have some fun in this game.

Obviously if your in a fg and run into 4-5fgs of enemies, your gonna most likely end up dead pretty quick and it can be frustrating sometimes.
The game is an RPG though (not a FPS), and i feel it was intended that there was meant to be more than 8 participants on each side in a battle.

I do enjoy 1fg vs 1fg fights myself, but ive had some great fun when theres been huge 3 way fights. Might not make a huge amount of rps but who cares.

Anyway, people will play the game how they want. If people have fun running around in a mass group or camping an mg to fend off attackers then good for them. They have no obligation at all to run in seperate groups.

I dont run set groups of the same people everyday and am personally tired of spending ages trying to get all the classes that aren't just preferable but entirely necessary (sorc, 2 clerics, mincer) to compete in the current style of rvr. It'd be nice to just log on and get going straight away without having to faff around for an hour pming people.

Really looking forward to the rvr expansion as hopefully it'll give some major strategic advantages to conquering and defending keeps (unlike atm where unless your relic raiding, u sometimes wonder why your trying to take a keep apart from opening df and allowing lower realm rank casters to actually have some fun)

 

[Tareregion]

I can live with Zergs, and I understand that non-opted people use numbers to defeat optimization.

/agreed

Zerging is the only way for casual gamers to kick Faders or Remish´ butt. (ofc Fader is harder cos he actually uses a brain ). u can't really expect them to run 1fg. They would get their ass kicked back to Ligen before their mezz would wear off =)

 

[Sycho]

I think rvr on pryd is ok though you do get some shit days like vestax posted here but everyone has had those, yes there has been a lot of albs lately but people can't stop that, the game designers themselves should of worked a way out to make the realms more equal in population, anyway it's nice to see a good amount of enemies even if they zerg, it's better than running away from cliff beetles

 

[Fadeh]

I prefer to face larger numbers of enemies as its more challenge and thats more fun. I rather die 10 times in a row to a zerg and succeed on the 11th than kill those groups running by themselves. This is if the enemies is non optimized. Its no fun to come to fights thats its absolutly impossible to win for just a fg. Sure the line here to cross is very thin.

Group combinations i prefer to meet:
Guild group opted high realm rank = 1fg
Guild groups opted low realm rank = 1-2fg
Guild groups non opted low realm rank = 2-3fg
Non guild groups non opted low realm rank = 3-4fg

All these is a quite fair fight i beleive. Only these fights i have fun fighting more or less. Kill a non opted low realm rank group is very boring and doesnt feel good at all. The feeling by getting killed by multiple high realm ranks guild groups is about the same.

 

[Aranor]

Hell, HDS even manages to beat EL sometimes now, figure that :s

QUOTE]

Great we will work harder El had a smaller adjustment and if u look at group u prob see many very low RR is keyspots atm, but we on track

same with HDS, Grove Protector group 4tw.

 

[Huntingtons]

hmm... we just had a great fight at amg, eclipse vs EL vs Random Alb's

 

[Moriath]

The only reason that Frontiers is scaring the opt'd groups is because they know no other way to play and when ppl run out into the frontiers in what ever the disguise form it is that you get in TOA ML's . The assist train doesn't know who to hit.

So its obvious that mythic are trying to out the opt'd groups in favour of more inclusive RvR. If you really want to come down to it the Rvr in mid has been down to healer, savage, and shammy with the odd skald for good measure. leaving 8 of the 12 classes out in the cold scraping a living in the frontiers and trying to avoid the opt'd groups of the other realms.

Thats not what a mmorpg is supposed to be and why it is that the patches and Frontiers are gradually changing this. The MMO doesn't mean 8 v 8.

Now the opt'd groups are starting to feel threatened by this as they can't beat a zerg.

A zerg is a tactic just as much as an opt'd group is a tactic. If one group runs out in RvR no opt'd and gets steamrollered all the time the opt'd group has fun getting rp's but the non opt'd gets fed up gets more numbers in order to over come its weaknesses.

As I said before its a natural response by the 60% (guess) of the server that opt'd groups have left out to try and get back into the game they pay for. And has as such been spawnd by these opt'd groups out of necessity so if you can't live with it quit. But all i can see is more moaning from the RvR guilds just like there was from the more casual guilds when the whole adds and opt'd thing surfaced. Adapt and change.

This is a constantly evolving game. Don't like it play Quake.

 

[Derric]

Heh,if all the RvR guilds do is to have some lame assistmonkey spamming anytime styles while the healers spam spreadheal,how come all the casual players aren't able to do the same thing?
Do for once try and make it seem like your IQ doesn't equal your age Durgi.

PS. Funny seeing a guy that's lying about being higher realmrank complains about people wanting realmpoints too. DS.

 

[Dook]

The only reason that Frontiers is scaring the opt'd groups is because they know no other way to play and when ppl run out into the frontiers in what ever the disguise form it is that you get in TOA ML's . The assist train doesn't know who to hit.

So its obvious that mythic are trying to out the opt'd groups in favour of more inclusive RvR. If you really want to come down to it the Rvr in mid has been down to healer, savage, and shammy with the odd skald for good measure. leaving 8 of the 12 classes out in the cold scraping a living in the frontiers and trying to avoid the opt'd groups of the other realms.

Thats not what a mmorpg is supposed to be and why it is that the patches and Frontiers are gradually changing this. The MMO doesn't mean 8 v 8.

Now the opt'd groups are starting to feel threatened by this as they can't beat a zerg.

A zerg is a tactic just as much as an opt'd group is a tactic. If one group runs out in RvR no opt'd and gets steamrollered all the time the opt'd group has fun getting rp's but the non opt'd gets fed up gets more numbers in order to over come its weaknesses.

As I said before its a natural response by the 60% (guess) of the server that opt'd groups have left out to try and get back into the game they pay for. And has as such been spawnd by these opt'd groups out of necessity so if you can't live with it quit. But all i can see is more moaning from the RvR guilds just like there was from the more casual guilds when the whole adds and opt'd thing surfaced. Adapt and change.

This is a constantly evolving game. Don't like it play Quake.

I think I speak for most people on the boards when I say, stfu.

You constantly post biased, stereotypical BS about RvR guilds (or those who prefer to RvR and powergame), making yourself look like a broken record in the process. Hell, why don't you just make a template flaming those who prefer RvR and opted groups? Yea yea, I know, you're entitled to an opinion but when that opinion is complete gobshite like yours you should bloody well keep it to yourself.

Oh and BTW, forming an argument around a mess of assumptions, stereotypes and personal biases is ass backwards.

/em puts Moriath back in his cave.

 

[Moriath]

I think I speak for most people on the boards when I say, stfu.

You constantly post biased, stereotypical BS about RvR guilds (or those who prefer to RvR and powergame), making yourself look like a broken record in the process. Hell, why don't you just make a template flaming those who prefer RvR and opted groups? Yea yea, I know, you're entitled to an opinion but when that opinion is complete gobshite like yours you should bloody well keep it to yourself.

Oh and BTW, forming an argument around a mess of assumptions, stereotypes and personal biases is ass backwards.

/em puts Moriath back in his cave.

Heehee you make me laugh. Can't form a good arguement so resort to personal insults. And your making big assumptions when you say you speak for most people. You speak for yourself and try to add more weight to your feelings.

Oh and ofc my opinion is bias as is yours but it doesn't make either any less valid.

The ppl who prefer opt'd groups fine play opt'd groups but don't whine when you get run over by a zerg as its the only way the majority of the server can beat you.

Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Dook]

Heehee you make me laugh. Can't form a good arguement so resort to personal insults. And your making big assumptions when you say you speak for most people. You speak for yourself and try to add more weight to your feelings.

Oh and ofc my opinion is bias as is yours but it doesn't make either any less valid.

The ppl who prefer opt'd groups fine play opt'd groups but don't whine when you get run over by a zerg as its the only way the majority of the server can beat you.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Can't form an argument? I already stated my views on the topic, the above was expressing my opinion on your post. I never once personally insulted you, only your opinion. I speak for many, who have voiced their opinions of you on BW countless times over, I just repeat what I and others have said in the past.

When I say your opinion is biased, I mean in that it is so clouded by your own dislike of RvR guilds due to your bad experiences with BO that, whenever a topic is mentioned where RvR guilds are directly or indirectly involved, you automatically form an opinion that could be considered against the RvR guild. Countless people in this post who have to be considered RvRs in opted groups or "elitists", have said in this thread how they understand both points of view but no, you totally bypass those comments and continue with your biased assumptions that everyone in RvR guilds is either a. stupid or b. an RP whore who doesn't care about anyone else. Which is obviously, judging from the comments in this post, not true. You tar all of us with the same brush and then act superior and aloof when confronted about it.

And like I said before, you do far more whining about the FEW opted-group RvRs who whine about adds etc than they do about adds. It's a two way street here, you accept their views and they accept yours. You can't sit on the boards flaming RvRs and making derogatory comments at every turn at their expense and then turn around and tell them they're the whiney ones, can you?

 

[Dumle]

FGvGF fights = Fair fights.

I also heard it called gangbangs

(Sorry couldnt ressist, hehe)

 

[Dumle]

I prefer to face larger numbers of enemies as its more challenge and thats more fun. I rather die 10 times in a row to a zerg and succeed on the 11th than kill those groups running by themselves. This is if the enemies is non optimized. Its no fun to come to fights thats its absolutly impossible to win for just a fg. Sure the line here to cross is very thin.

Group combinations i prefer to meet:
Guild group opted high realm rank = 1fg
Guild groups opted low realm rank = 1-2fg
Guild groups non opted low realm rank = 2-3fg
Non guild groups non opted low realm rank = 3-4fg

All these is a quite fair fight i beleive. Only these fights i have fun fighting more or less. Kill a non opted low realm rank group is very boring and doesnt feel good at all. The feeling by getting killed by multiple high realm ranks guild groups is about the same.

Do you tell them to stop for a while to make headcount Fadeh

/em pictures Faderullan and Dreami going around noting down RR and numbers then saying, alright boys, loose that one savage over there and well have ourselfs a rumble

skoja ba'

 

[Zapsi]

The only reason that Frontiers is scaring the opt'd groups is because they know no other way to play and when ppl run out into the frontiers in what ever the disguise form it is that you get in TOA ML's . The assist train doesn't know who to hit.

So its obvious that mythic are trying to out the opt'd groups in favour of more inclusive RvR. If you really want to come down to it the Rvr in mid has been down to healer, savage, and shammy with the odd skald for good measure. leaving 8 of the 12 classes out in the cold scraping a living in the frontiers and trying to avoid the opt'd groups of the other realms.

Thats not what a mmorpg is supposed to be and why it is that the patches and Frontiers are gradually changing this. The MMO doesn't mean 8 v 8.

Now the opt'd groups are starting to feel threatened by this as they can't beat a zerg.

A zerg is a tactic just as much as an opt'd group is a tactic. If one group runs out in RvR no opt'd and gets steamrollered all the time the opt'd group has fun getting rp's but the non opt'd gets fed up gets more numbers in order to over come its weaknesses.

As I said before its a natural response by the 60% (guess) of the server that opt'd groups have left out to try and get back into the game they pay for. And has as such been spawnd by these opt'd groups out of necessity so if you can't live with it quit. But all i can see is more moaning from the RvR guilds just like there was from the more casual guilds when the whole adds and opt'd thing surfaced. Adapt and change.

This is a constantly evolving game. Don't like it play Quake.

Think Toa is gonna kill RvR for none opti groups for a long time, even less chance for the gamer that playes 2 hours a day or less.
Zergs will come but prydwen still a small server so seeing the rvr groups team up to kill 10fg will prob be easyer then B4.

 

[Fadeh]

Think Toa is gonna kill RvR for none opti groups for a long time, even less chance for the gamer that playes 2 hours a day or less.
Zergs will come but prydwen still a small server so seeing the rvr groups team up to kill 10fg will prob be easyer then B4.

Dont team up with other rvr groups. Its way to unfair vs the other people.

 

[Moriath]

Can't form an argument? I already stated my views on the topic, the above was expressing my opinion on your post. I never once personally insulted you, only your opinion. I speak for many, who have voiced their opinions of you on BW countless times over, I just repeat what I and others have said in the past.

When I say your opinion is biased, I mean in that it is so clouded by your own dislike of RvR guilds due to your bad experiences with BO that, whenever a topic is mentioned where RvR guilds are directly or indirectly involved, you automatically form an opinion that could be considered against the RvR guild. Countless people in this post who have to be considered RvRs in opted groups or "elitists", have said in this thread how they understand both points of view but no, you totally bypass those comments and continue with your biased assumptions that everyone in RvR guilds is either a. stupid or b. an RP whore who doesn't care about anyone else. Which is obviously, judging from the comments in this post, not true. You tar all of us with the same brush and then act superior and aloof when confronted about it.

And like I said before, you do far more whining about the FEW opted-group RvRs who whine about adds etc than they do about adds. It's a two way street here, you accept their views and they accept yours. You can't sit on the boards flaming RvRs and making derogatory comments at every turn at their expense and then turn around and tell them they're the whiney ones, can you?

I said opt'd groups can run as they want and have said it many times ... the point i try to get across is that they seem to complain a lot about people adding/ zerging.

Where as I am not allowed to complain about opt'd groups but have to take thier comments about people zerging without batting an eye lid ?

The boards are about putting forward opinions I have stated mine .. you have stated yours. In my view they are elitest and out for themselves and in yours they are not. fair enough. You are bias'd by your experience in game and I am by mine both of which are different.

Those that have disagreed with me in the past have been from RvR guilds so you are voicing their opinion as you put it. And I am trying to put over the other side of the coin.

I never said ppl in RvR guilds were stupid ... i think i have said they are elitest and I think they are simply by the fact that they tend to seperate themselves from a lot of the rest of the game to be elite at RvR so where am i wrong ?

Never said I haven't whined I just pointed out the the whines might be going the other way now with the new systems put into the game to favour the large skirmishes over the fg setups.

I don't mean to come across superior as you put it just putting my point of view as you have done. Take it reply, to the arguement and the discussion goes on. I never found the term STFU to be a very valid argument. Pursued me / discuss with me your arguments and your views come across. Bring it to a personal level and you breed even more contempt.