Russian Poison?

Wij

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Russian spy: What we know so far

Russia is expelling 23 of our diplomats in retaliation...

May is apparently considering Magnitsky legislation...

Too little too late in my opinion (your mileage may vary)
 

Hawkwind

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Seriously who cares. It's already over. If anyone thinks Putin loses a seconds sleep over what the UK or any EU country thinks, says and does then they are deluded.
 

Moriath

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No one is ever gonna declare war on russia and they have enough resources that sanctions wont do shit. They can trade with china all day long.

So he basically gonna do what he wants.
 

Wij

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No one is ever gonna declare war on russia and they have enough resources that sanctions wont do shit. They can trade with china all day long.

So he basically gonna do what he wants.
They should be sanctioning oligarchs who prefer to keep their money and kids in the West. That would have an effect.

Also the Russian state itself is nearly bankrupt. If Europe developed gas links from elsewhere Putin would have little leverage.
 

Job

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Russian economic expert says we should go after Abromovich.
You might want to donate to his families soon to be funeral costs.
 

DaGaffer

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If Europe developed gas links from elsewhere Putin would have little leverage.
Something the West should be doing as strategic policy anyway. Russia is a bad actor but the only real leverage it has over the west is its gas supplies, take that away and its a big empty country with the GDP of Italy and a declining population. All the talk about fancy new weapons (which NATO loves to hear because it helps their budget) is largely bollocks; they can't afford to develop their new fighter and tank programmes unless a foreign partner bankrolls them (usually India) and those partners have been taking their balls home of late.

Its one thing I find fascinating about Putin, what's his plan? Russia has massive structural problems that aren't going to be fixed by putting an orange chimp in the White House or dropping barrel bombs on Aleppo. What's the plan?
 

Wij

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Something the West should be doing as strategic policy anyway. Russia is a bad actor but the only real leverage it has over the west is its gas supplies, take that away and its a big empty country with the GDP of Italy and a declining population. All the talk about fancy new weapons (which NATO loves to hear because it helps their budget) is largely bollocks; they can't afford to develop their new fighter and tank programmes unless a foreign partner bankrolls them (usually India) and those partners have been taking their balls home of late.

Its one thing I find fascinating about Putin, what's his plan? Russia has massive structural problems that aren't going to be fixed by putting an orange chimp in the White House or dropping barrel bombs on Aleppo. What's the plan?
The plan is to stay in power and keep looting the state. He couldn't give a shit about the long term position of Russia except where it affects him.

He couldn't risk losing power in case those who follow him decide to follow up on what he's done in the last 18 years and prosecute or just do a Saddam on him.
 

DaGaffer

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The plan is to stay in power and keep looting the state. He couldn't give a shit about the long term position of Russia except where it affects him.

He couldn't risk losing power in case those who follow him decide to follow up on what he's done in the last 18 years and prosecute or just do a Saddam on him.
I get that he intends to stay in power, for life if he can, but that's an objective, not a strategy. What's his plan? How is Syria, Cheeto, Ukraine, poisoning people in market towns supposed to fit together?
 

Wij

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Show the folks at home that he is a major world player. They boast on state TV that Trump is theirs. They boast about their military in Syria. They claim to be standing up to 'fascists' in Ukraine and liberating 'Russian-speakers'. It's to make the people think they need a strong-man.

That's why foreign governments should go out of their way to humiliate him. They should have rung up Navalny today to congratulate him on his excellent campaign and not rung Putin at all. Don't invite him to anything. But do mention the fact that US forces kicked his 'mercenaries' arses in Syria. He needs to look the big man. Don't give him it. Just freeze the assets of his henchmen and investigate the companies he has on our stock markets for corruption.

It's the right thing to do for the Russian people.
 

Gwadien

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I do like it how much attention Theresa is giving this.

It's almost like she's trying to distract the public from the fact that she's doing a pretty terrible job.

I don't remember anyone banging on this much when Litvinenko died.
 

Wij

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There should have been a bigger outcry over Litvinenko but now no-one has the excuse that it could have been rogue elements of the Russian state. Nothing happens without Putin's say so now.

Back in Blair's time the world still thought that if they engaged with Putin and tried to treat him nice he might treat them nice back. Experience has shown otherwise.
 

Moriath

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I do like it how much attention Theresa is giving this.

It's almost like she's trying to distract the public from the fact that she's doing a pretty terrible job.

I don't remember anyone banging on this much when Litvinenko died.
There was a big outcry when he died. And lots of fist shaking tbh. It didnt go as far as this because this was a nerve agent and after ww1 they are supposed to be banned. The west has a great aversion to chemical agents.
 

Gwadien

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There was a big outcry when he died. And lots of fist shaking tbh. It didnt go as far as this because this was a nerve agent and after ww1 they are supposed to be banned. The west has a great aversion to chemical agents.
Oh but radioactive poisoning is pretty kosher.

It's fucking stupid though - our hostile response is EXACTLY what Russia wants.
 

Wij

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Oh but radioactive poisoning is pretty kosher.

It's fucking stupid though - our hostile response is EXACTLY what Russia wants.
Getting just a bit cross about things is what has led us here. There hasn’t been any real consequences that Putin cares about. Magnisky Act sanctions would really be a consequence he cares about.
 

Gwadien

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Getting just a bit cross about things is what has led us here. There hasn’t been any real consequences that Putin cares about. Magnisky Act sanctions would really be a consequence he cares about.
Exactly, but we're still giving the Russian people the message that we're evil and we won't rest until they become westernised, and Putin is their lord and saviour.

I mean, do you really think the Russians aren't more capable of doing it discreetly?
 

Wij

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Exactly, but we're still giving the Russian people the message that we're evil and we won't rest until they become westernised, and Putin is their lord and saviour.

I mean, do you really think the Russians aren't more capable of doing it discreetly?
Russian media is giving the Russian people that message but they were going to do that anyway.

Yes. It’s a deliberate provocation to get a reaction but there isn’t another choice other than appearing indecisive and inviting further aggression.
 

Scouse

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Seriously tho @Wij. I don't trust any of the fuckers. Including our own government.
 

Scouse

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Doesn't mean anyone other than Russia did it.
Nope. It probably was. But at the same time, it doesn't mean it wasn't any of the other actors.

None of our governments, and zero criminal organisations, can be trusted. I wouldn't even believe it if Putin turned around and said "yep, it was me" - none of 'em are to be believed on anything tbh.

Also, I strangely don't give the slightest of a shit about it either. The potential for something like this to disrupt my life is so very low. Feel bad for the victims and it's disgraceful that this sort of shit is getting used anywhere (don't particularly care that it's on UK soil - any soil is bad enough) - but I'm neither surprised nor overly bothered.

I guess I feel jaded.
 

Wij

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I’m not sure what could be more worrying than a foreign government deploying chemical weapons against another country. Would it have been worse if it had been terrorists such as ISIS?
 

Scouse

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I’m not sure what could be more worrying than a foreign government deploying chemical weapons against another country.
It wasn't really against the "country" though was it? It was more at people who'd signed up as spies, military personnel. I'm of the opinion that if you start playing those games you may well get burned (and you were dumb to sign up in the first place).

The public is just collateral damage - as we always have been. Unfortunately. But until some humans stop playing power games...

Would it have been worse if it had been terrorists such as ISIS?
Yep tbpfh. They'd happily indescriminately release that stuff in packed population centres, if that's what their batshitness tells them to do that particular Monday. It would show that they're able to get their hands on this sort of shit.


Edit: On a wider note, it's why I'm against nuclear weapons. The very existence of weapons - be it chemical, biological or nuclear - means that they'll get used some time or other. Just takes some wanker dumb or made enough to use them. The MAD doctrine is a fools comfort.
 

Exioce

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Nope. It probably was. But at the same time, it doesn't mean it wasn't any of the other actors.

None of our governments, and zero criminal organisations, can be trusted. I wouldn't even believe it if Putin turned around and said "yep, it was me" - none of 'em are to be believed on anything tbh.

Also, I strangely don't give the slightest of a shit about it either. The potential for something like this to disrupt my life is so very low. Feel bad for the victims and it's disgraceful that this sort of shit is getting used anywhere (don't particularly care that it's on UK soil - any soil is bad enough) - but I'm neither surprised nor overly bothered.

I guess I feel jaded.
Russia's current strategy of spewing out so much contradictory bullshit that people believe nothing, leading to apathy, is perfectly summed up in this book:
 

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Wij

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Russia's current strategy of spewing out so much contradictory bullshit that people believe nothing, leading to apathy, is perfectly summed up in this book:
Will pop on my reading list. I just finished Bill Browder's Red Notice. It's mind-boggling how Russia works under Putin.
 

Scouse

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I daresay that book is bob on.

I'm just surprised anyone thinks that we're any different really.


Not exactly on-topic but another bump for the documentary Hypernormalisation by Adam Curtis. Dunno if it's on the BBC any more but it's definitely on YouTube and worth a watch.
 

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