RIP Nelson Mandela

Job

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Mandela played the game..he hated whites and as the regime fell apart he seized his chance for power. He was corrupt.the ANC was corrupt.but the self replicating marketng machine of downtrod blackman while an articulate public persona carried him through scandal after scandal and now it reaches its final orgasmic peak as the worlds politicians gather to bask in his glory at the ultimate display of the emporers new clothes.
 

Athan

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Whos kidfing who here..he ADMITTED to it inncourt

In the 1960s before being jailed he admitted to some sabotage, and at least claimed that he tried to avoid loss of life then. Did bother to read the link I posted, or are you so dead-set on being on the "terrorist!" side of the debate that you are incapable of seeing anything else ?

The list of crimes you posted above were carried out in the 1980s, so I'm not really seeing the connection. As others have said, the 1980s stuff is on his wife, Winnie, and others in the ANC who were not jailed at the time. I hardly think Nelson Mandela somehow managed to orchestrate all of that from his prison.
 

caLLous

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...no one is denying he did some questionable stuff.
And yet they kind of are by not even mentioning it in passing. I'm not disagreeing that the good he did far *far* outweighs the bad but I don't think at least a cursory mention of "the bad" would be out of place alongside all this gushing praise.
 

DaGaffer

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And yet they kind of are by not even mentioning it in passing. I'm not disagreeing that the good he did far *far* outweighs the bad but I don't think at least a cursory mention of "the bad" would be out of place alongside all this gushing praise.

Yeah, because that's what happens the week people die. "That Winston Churchill, saved us in World War II but he was a right cunt to the Indians". The full picture is one for the historians, but now is not the time.
 

Olgaline

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And yet they kind of are by not even mentioning it in passing. I'm not disagreeing that the good he did far *far* outweighs the bad but I don't think at least a cursory mention of "the bad" would be out of place alongside all this gushing praise.

Good reply,
personally I think it's down to the simple fact that the legacy far outweighs the person and thus, in the greater scope of history, "the bad" is insignificant.
And as I mentioned, it's also important to understand the confindes and context in which these "bad acts" were committed. your right though, in the sence that.
Had he not been taken part in, and been jailed for, his participation the "armed fight" against the apartheid regime. He would never have gone to robben island
and thus never have ended up playing the role he did in history - So in that sence, sure..it merrits remembering that period of his life.
But in the grander historical perspective?..Not really.
 

Olgaline

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Y The full picture is one for the historians.

Ah, but history is written by those who stand victorious, who's to say that history per say is necessarily depicted truthfully?
bla..bla..bla..anyway where in Africa mate ?
 

Job

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TBH its not about Mandela to me..its about how easily human attention is diverted from the suffering of individuals if their story gets in the way.
As for his jail time.. I know when he was in and its widely accepted he was still controlling his organisation from inside through the usual channels that kingpins do..though Im sure he never planted a bomb himself...he was far too clever for that.
 

DaGaffer

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Ah, but history is written by those who stand victorious, who's to say that history per say is necessarily depicted truthfully?
bla..bla..bla..anyway where in Africa mate ?

Boksberg - just outside Johannesburg

TBH its not about Mandela to me..its about how easily human attention is diverted from the suffering of individuals if their story gets in the way.
As for his jail time.. I know when he was in and its widely accepted he was still controlling his organisation from inside through the usual channels that kingpins do..though Im sure he never planted a bomb himself...he was far too clever for that.

That would have been an interesting challenge when he was on Robben Island; unless he got the white guards to join the ANC.
 

Olgaline

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On a side note:
Imagine being discriminated against and segregated.
Not due to social class, religiouse beliefs, education or even due to your political conviction. (not that these reasons aren't bad enough)
But solely due to the colour of your skin! nothing else. Really try to imagine it, no really...
 

soze

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On a side note:
Imagine being discriminated against and segregated.
Not due to social class, religiouse beliefs, education or even due to your political conviction. (not that these reasons aren't bad enough)
But solely due to the colour of your skin! nothing else. Really try to imagine it, no really...
The American Civil Rights movement got on OK without blowing people up.

What he achieved was great and should be celebrated. The way he started though should never be condoned because in my mind when you are talking about blowing up innocent people the ends will never justify the means.
 

Hawkwind

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RIP :(




technically Che Guevara was the "poster boy" ironically
and there is an argument to be made that most of the violence was orchestrated with the help of mandela's wife, while he was in prison, so yea, if your idea of revolution is to spend 30 or so years in prison, knock yourself out.
oh and if you really think apartheid was a good thing then you need to read something that doesnt have pictures in it, you might learn something

His wife (Whinnie) with the football club boys terrorised the entire area they lived in for political gain whilst he was in prison. He was a symbol for the struggle that is all. Not like he some great politician that united the country. All he had to do was turn up and say nice things occasionally. Poster boy for anti apartheid is all.
 

Hawkwind

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The American Civil Rights movement got on OK without blowing people up.

What he achieved was great and should be celebrated. The way he started though should never be condoned because in my mind when you are talking about blowing up innocent people the ends will never justify the means.

Nail on head! Ask any white South African older than 40 and they will tell you he was a terrorist, nothing else. Bet Gerry Adams wonders what he did wrong to not get as famous :)
 

DaGaffer

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soze said:
The American Civil Rights movement got on OK without blowing people up. What he achieved was great and should be celebrated. The way he started though should never be condoned because in my mind when you are talking about blowing up innocent people the ends will never justify the means.

The comparison doesn't stand up. The Civil Rights movement ultimately had to be backed up by the US government to force the States to dismantle racist laws and enforce voting rights that were already on the books. There was no National Guard or FBI going to come to the aid of South Africa's blacks.
 

Raven

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It must be said, he didn't discriminate...he blew up black families too!
 

DaGaffer

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Hawkwind said:
Nail on head! Ask any white South African older than 40 and they will tell you he was a terrorist, nothing else. Bet Gerry Adams wonders what he did wrong to not get as famous :)

Except that's not true. Afrikaners would probably maintain that view, but not everyone.

The difference between the ANC and IRA is that the former we're fighting for genuine freedom from oppression whilst the latter were pursuing the myth of a 32 county Ireland that had never existed in the first place. When the PIRA started out at least one of their goals was justified (protection of catholic civil rights), which was ironically the goal of the British Army as well when they first arrived. Later on the IRAs moral argument had no justification. So Gerry Adams can go fuck himself.
 

Raven

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It's also worth noting that unicorns do not indeed shit rainbows in South Africa, there is still a big difference in black and white education, social status, income, living standards etc.
 

DaGaffer

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Raven said:
It's also worth noting that unicorns do not indeed shit rainbows in South Africa, there is still a big difference in black and white education, social status, income, living standards etc.

I don't think anyone's arguing that there's nothing wrong with South Africa. No one is going call Jacob Zuma a great man when he dies; or even a good one.
 

Roo Stercogburn

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Rest in peace Nelson Mandela.

Some of the jokes that have emerged are excellent, I'd be surprised if Mandela himself wouldn't have chuckled at them.
 

BloodOmen

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994084_10153547210115562_874166931_n.jpg
 

Hawkwind

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Except that's not true. Afrikaners would probably maintain that view, but not everyone.

The difference between the ANC and IRA is that the former we're fighting for genuine freedom from oppression whilst the latter were pursuing the myth of a 32 county Ireland that had never existed in the first place. When the PIRA started out at least one of their goals was justified (protection of catholic civil rights), which was ironically the goal of the British Army as well when they first arrived. Later on the IRAs moral argument had no justification. So Gerry Adams can go fuck himself.

Whilst the struggle against oppression was a genuine and right, resorting to violence to overcome it was not the right way. As Hanoi Jane once said, "fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity". The sentiment is right, violence is not the right way. Ghandi achieved much without resorting to it. That included his time in South Africa.
 

Hawkwind

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It's also worth noting that unicorns do not indeed shit rainbows in South Africa, there is still a big difference in black and white education, social status, income, living standards etc.

Very much a positive discrimination against whites now in South Africa, it is why they are leaving the country in droves. Many of them working in the Gulf. Laws were put in place so that companies had to employ higher percentage of blacks, especially in key management positions. Unfortunately there were just not enough well qualified to take the positions. Those that had the qualifications took advantage and asked for ridiculous salaries because they knew the companies had no choice. I once had to work with an airline in SA that put a guy in charge of certain key decisions on aircraft purchases whose previous experience was running the toilet cleaning crews.

Many educated white South Africans have left the country for two reasons. Massive rise in violent crime and the now lawful discrimination in the jobs market. Ironic I know but still they are losing a lot of expertise that will take a generation or two to replace.
 

rynnor

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Many educated white South Africans have left the country for two reasons. Massive rise in violent crime and the now lawful discrimination in the jobs market. Ironic I know but still they are losing a lot of expertise that will take a generation or two to replace.

It's slowly becoming a Zimbabwe which is a terrible shame - it could have dragged up the standard of living for all after the sanctions went but instead short sighted corruption and endemic racism are slowly destroying its economy. Nigeria has just kicked it to the number 2 slot as the largest economy in Africa and with the slowest growth prediction for sub-Saharan Africa it will continue to slide.
 

DaGaffer

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Whilst the struggle against oppression was a genuine and right, resorting to violence to overcome it was not the right way. As Hanoi Jane once said, "fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity". The sentiment is right, violence is not the right way. Ghandi achieved much without resorting to it. That included his time in South Africa.

I've already pointed out the Gandhi approach wouldn't have worked in Apartheid SA. People tend to forget that Gandhi was pushing at an open door in 1946. The British were exhausted, demoralised and very reluctant to shoot anyone (post-Amritsar, the heavy hand didn't play well back home anyway). Most of them just wanted to go home with the least amount of fuss and take a look at their shiny new Welfare State. The situation for white South Africans was utterly different. They were already shooting Africans with impunity for Nelson Mandela was an itch in his Daddy's pants, and as far as they were concerned they had nowhere to go back to. And I'm sorry but saying resorting to violence is not the right way is just silly; what would you have recommended to a French resistance fighter in 1944, turn the other cheek?

Very much a positive discrimination against whites now in South Africa, it is why they are leaving the country in droves. Many of them working in the Gulf. Laws were put in place so that companies had to employ higher percentage of blacks, especially in key management positions. Unfortunately there were just not enough well qualified to take the positions. Those that had the qualifications took advantage and asked for ridiculous salaries because they knew the companies had no choice. I once had to work with an airline in SA that put a guy in charge of certain key decisions on aircraft purchases whose previous experience was running the toilet cleaning crews.

Many educated white South Africans have left the country for two reasons. Massive rise in violent crime and the now lawful discrimination in the jobs market. Ironic I know but still they are losing a lot of expertise that will take a generation or two to replace.

They've always been leaving the country in droves. A bunch of my mates went contracting for Armscor back in the eighties because of a lack of skilled (white) labour because they'd apparently all buggered off then. Its funny how that keeps happening; London was full of South Africans in the early 90s (as anyone who ever went to The Church will attest) because they were all leaving then as well. Bottom line, always take anything an ex-pat tells you with a grain of salt. I still know quite a few whites in SA who seem to be doing nicely for themselves. Yes its a violent country, but it always has been (my Dad went around armed when we lived there and that was the early seventies), just like the rest of Africa.

It's slowly becoming a Zimbabwe which is a terrible shame - it could have dragged up the standard of living for all after the sanctions went but instead short sighted corruption and endemic racism are slowly destroying its economy. Nigeria has just kicked it to the number 2 slot as the largest economy in Africa and with the slowest growth prediction for sub-Saharan Africa it will continue to slide.

It could go the way of Zimbabwe, that's a real possibility, but its a long way from that state at the moment. You only have to look at the thousands of Zimbabweans trying to cross into SA (and Zambia) every day to see that. The Nigeria thing is a bit misleading; if anything that's just a correction to how things should be anyway; Nigeria is massively more populous than SA and oil rich to boot. The reality is the per capita GDP of SA is still way higher than Nigeria (five times higher in fact), which is why, yes, you guessed it, SA has an illegal immigrant problem with Nigerians.
 

rynnor

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It could go the way of Zimbabwe, that's a real possibility, but its a long way from that state at the moment. You only have to look at the thousands of Zimbabweans trying to cross into SA (and Zambia) every day to see that. The Nigeria thing is a bit misleading; if anything that's just a correction to how things should be anyway; Nigeria is massively more populous than SA and oil rich to boot. The reality is the per capita GDP of SA is still way higher than Nigeria (five times higher in fact), which is why, yes, you guessed it, SA has an illegal immigrant problem with Nigerians.

Sure it's a long road from the African economic powerhouse to a Zimbabwe but all the elements are in place - all it takes is time. Who would have thought Zim would ever have food shortages?
 

Raven

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Resorting to violence against the state or the military is fine, resorting to blowing up random civilian targets is not.
 

DaGaffer

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Raven said:
Resorting to violence against the state or the military is fine, resorting to blowing up random civilian targets is not.

Who says they were random?
 

Gwadien

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Resorting to violence against the state or the military is fine, resorting to blowing up random civilian targets is not.
Being a bit of a devils advocate here, but since the 'whites' were in power for so long in South Africa, they were established members of society, therefore the objective was to shake this establishment, which meant attacking it from all angles.
 

DaGaffer

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So the audience at the Memorial certainly made their feelings towards Jacob Zuma fairly clear...
 

Aoami

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whenever i hear jacob zuma all i can think of is:

lom07.jpg
 

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