RIP Nelson Mandela

[Job]

Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists. Here are some highlights

-Church Street West, Pretoria, on the 20 May 1983

-Amanzimtoti Shopping complex KZN, 23 December 1985

-Krugersdorp Magistrate’s Court, 17 March 1988

-Durban Pick ‘n Pay shopping complex, 1 September 1986

-Pretoria Sterland movie complex 16 April 1988 – limpet mine killed ANC terrorist M O Maponya instead

-Johannesburg Magistrate’s Court, 20 May 1987

-Roodepoort Standard Bank 3 June, 1988

Tellingly, not only did Mandela refuse to renounce violence, Amnesty refused to take his case stating “[the] movement recorded that it could not give the name of ‘Prisoner of Conscience’ to anyone associated with violence, even though as in ‘conventional warfare’ a degree of restraint may be exercised.”

 

[old.Tohtori]

Trolling this would be easy as pie, but trolling someones death isn't really cool. RIP, changed the world more then we probably ever will.

 

[DaGaffer]

Just another rarely mentioned point..he stayed in jail so long because he wouldnt denounce violence....sorry...the guy was a twat and all this ridiculous fawning is just guilt...theyre all coming out of the woodwork to see whos the most upset about his pasing..it makes me puke.

He stayed in jail because the west had to prop up the Apartheid regime during the Cold War. Do you think its a coincidence that he was released pretty much as communism fell? Of course not. His usefulness to the West changed.Frankly he could have denounced violence until he was blue in the face all through sixties and seventies and the Boers wouldn't have let him go anywhere.

As for terrorist=bad; its the mindset of a simpleton; Mandela saved more lives over his lifetime than he was complicit in taking.

 

[Raven]

Oh that's all right then. The bombing of civilian targets is perfectly fine after all, so long as you save a few too!

 

[DaGaffer]

Oh that's all right then. The bombing of civilian targets is perfectly fine after all, so long as you save a few too!

Yes, it is. The measure of a man's life is everything he does, not just the bits you disagree with; and in the ledger of Mandela's life he saved millions more than he hurt

 

[Raven]

I agree but the bad also needs to be mentioned. To say otherwise is like saying the Nazis were great for the medical advances they made, which also saved millions. He ordered the deaths of men, women and children. Those deaths did nothing for his cause and had nothing to do with the end of apartheid. They didn't stop being racist cunts because people were getting blown up they ended it because they were no longer supported. It would have ended without him.

 

[DaGaffer]

I agree but the bad also needs to be mentioned. To say otherwise is like saying the Nazis were great for the medical advances they made, which also saved millions. He ordered the deaths of men, women and children. Those deaths did nothing for his cause and had nothing to do with the end of apartheid. They didn't stop being racist cunts because people were getting blown up they ended it because they were no longer supported. It would have ended without him.

Apartheid would have ended, but the fact it ended bloodlessly is pretty much down to Mandela, and at least in part because of the authority his imprisonment (and let's be honest, PR "martydom") gave him. "Truth & Reconciliation" was his agenda; and without him a bloodbath was more than likely (you certainly wouldn't have gotten odds on a peaceful outcome from anyone in 1989).

As for the terrorism, its easy to look at his actions with perfect hindsight, but in 1961, the whites had all the guns and all the backing; if you're completely disenfranchised in the first place, what other choice is there besides the armed struggle? The Gandhi approach wasn't going to work; the Afrikaners weren't tired Brits who'd been fighting for six years.

 

[Olgaline]

Apartheid would have ended, but the fact it ended bloodlessly is pretty much down to Mandela, and at least in part because of the authority his imprisonment (and let's be honest, PR "martydom") gave him. "Truth & Reconciliation" was his agenda; and without him a bloodbath was more than likely (you certainly wouldn't have gotten odds on a peaceful outcome from anyone in 1989).

As for the terrorism, its easy to look at his actions with perfect hindsight, but in 1961, the whites had all the guns and all the backing; if you're completely disenfranchised in the first place, what other choice is there besides the armed struggle? The Gandhi approach wasn't going to work; the Afrikaners weren't tired Brits who'd been fighting for six years.

Well Said!
+ The good he did waay overshadows any wrong doings...not only locally and nationally, but internationally!

 

[Raven]

Martin McGuinness is a fucking hero

 

[Job]

Eell I can easily argue all this supposed good he did...his reign was swamped with corruption and SA is a far more violent and inequal place to be now....even at the height of apartheid they had to build a fence around the place to stop blacks fromtrying to get in because a second class citizen in SA was far better off than the avrage man iin the surrounding countries.

 

[DaGaffer]

Eell I can easily argue all this supposed good he did...his reign was swamped with corruption and SA is a far more violent and inequal place to be now....even at the height of apartheid they had to build a fence around the place to stop blacks fromtrying to get in because a second class citizen in SA was far better off than the avrage man iin the surrounding countries.

South Africa is awash with illegal immigrants from as far away as Nigeria. The place isn't as equal as it should be, but it's still better than the rest of sub-Saharan Africa ( except maybe Ghana). And for such a terrible place it's amazing how many people, including whites, still want to live there;, I have quite a few friends over there.

It's irrelevant whether the apartheid era had any redeeming features; it was never sustainable; you simply can't disenfranchise 90% of the population and expect them to put up with it. So it was going to end, and it was going to end in fire and blood, and Mandela found a way around that.

 

[Embattle]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/d...verty-By-John-Humprhrys-Stephen-Robinson.html

 

[throdgrain]

Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists. Here are some highlights

-Church Street West, Pretoria, on the 20 May 1983

-Amanzimtoti Shopping complex KZN, 23 December 1985

-Krugersdorp Magistrate’s Court, 17 March 1988

-Durban Pick ‘n Pay shopping complex, 1 September 1986

-Pretoria Sterland movie complex 16 April 1988 – limpet mine killed ANC terrorist M O Maponya instead

-Johannesburg Magistrate’s Court, 20 May 1987

-Roodepoort Standard Bank 3 June, 1988

Tellingly, not only did Mandela refuse to renounce violence, Amnesty refused to take his case stating “[the] movement recorded that it could not give the name of ‘Prisoner of Conscience’ to anyone associated with violence, even though as in ‘conventional warfare’ a degree of restraint may be exercised.”

I don't understand why you would "facepalm" this Mabs, this is what happened.

 

[TdC]

I have some doubts that he was responsible for all that given he was in prison at the time. I kind of feel his ex wife had a lot to do with that stuff given she's a complete nutbag.

 

[Job]

Whos kidfing who here..he ADMITTED to it inncourt..you are so completely taken in by the fairy story that you cant face the darker truth.
Im not claimin he was any worse than many other political figures who have abused others to get power and make changes for good or bad...it just amazes me how strong the desire is in yhe masses to believe a simplistic, concocted story if the subject matter is emotive enough.

 

[dysfunction]

I was born in South Africa. I lived there during Apartheid. I lived there while Mandela was in prison. I was there when he was released from prison, when blacks were allowed to vote and when Mandela became president.

The views in this thread on how he was simply a terrorist are staggeringly naive and ignorant.

It beggers belief sometimes.

 

[caLLous]

He wasn't "just a terrorist" and anyone who says he was is misinformed and/or ignorant but it's annoying as shit that not one bad word about the things he did in the past has been said since he died. He did or signed off on some truly horrific things and it's as if it never happened if you just pay attention to what's been said posthumously. I even saw a reporter trying to make Winnie look like a saint earlier today.

 

[Raven]

I was born in South Africa. I lived there during Apartheid. I lived there while Mandela was in prison. I was there when he was released from prison, when blacks were allowed to vote and when Mandela became president.

The views in this thread on how he was simply a terrorist are staggeringly naive and ignorant.

It beggers belief sometimes.

I don't think anyone has said he was "just a terrorist" ...

 

[Job]

Im happy for Mandelas achievements to be celebrated..though I believe they were as much a result of the aura surrounding the story as his actions...but I thinks its fair to demand that they balance it with the horror of the massacres...they should invite the victims and their families to tell their story to the world.

 

[soze]

I was born in South Africa. I lived there during Apartheid. I lived there while Mandela was in prison. I was there when he was released from prison, when blacks were allowed to vote and when Mandela became president.

The views in this thread on how he was simply a terrorist are staggeringly naive and ignorant.

It beggers belief sometimes.

Reading this thread has been an eye opener he seems to split people like Thatcher did.

He has admitted to terrorist activities but they are being totally brushed under the carpet so the media and people can bestow this saint like status on him. Yes what he did after and during his prison sentence is admirable but it does not overshadow all the bad he did. It is an example of History being written by the winner. And for the media to only report one side of this very complicated story is staggeringly naive and ignorant.

 

[Olgaline]

but it does not overshadow all the bad he did.

Actually, yes it does!

Ps: Dysfunction I also grew up in Africa, and have also lived in SA.

 

[throdgrain]

I was born in South Africa. I lived there during Apartheid. I lived there while Mandela was in prison. I was there when he was released from prison, when blacks were allowed to vote and when Mandela became president.

The views in this thread on how he was simply a terrorist are staggeringly naive and ignorant.

It beggers belief sometimes.

No one said that mate.

 

[soze]

Actually, yes it does!

Ps: Dysfunction I also grew up in Africa, and have also lived in SA.

No is does not. A life is made up of all your choices not just the good. The whole story should be reported. Is anything unforgivable as long as you change later in life?

 

[Olgaline]

And yet the good he did still overshadows his wrong dooings..no one is denying he did some questionable stuff.
but in the grander scope of his life and actions the bad he did, and the context in which he did them,
are soooooooo insignificant in comparison to the positive things he achived in the years surpassing, that to dwell on them
is to spit in the face of a nation, the millions of lives and lives to come that he helped save and the future of many lives and
nations to come.

it's Pathetic!

 

[DaGaffer]

Actually, yes it does!

Ps: Dysfunction I also grew up in Africa, and have also lived in SA.

Me too.

 

[DaGaffer]

No is does not. A life is made up of all your choices not just the good. The whole story should be reported. Is anything unforgivable as long as you change later in life?

I think 27 years in prison pretty much covers the bad don't you? Ever been to Robben Island? I have, it wasn't Disneyland.

But, there's a wider point at issue here; "terrorism=bad". Its utterly simplistic and flat out wrong. Everything has a context.

 

[Raven]

Blowing up families doing their shopping. In what possible context is that a good thing? Or even and understandable thing.

 

[dysfunction]

Exactly DaGaffer...

He didn't dive straight into terrorism. It was a last resort. Desperate measures in desperate times.

 

[dysfunction]

Blowing up families doing their shopping. In what possible context is that a good thing? Or even and understandable thing.

You obviously have no clue how they were treated to push people to do those things.

 

[DaGaffer]

Blowing up families doing their shopping. In what possible context is that a good thing? Or even and understandable thing.

We routinely use UAVs to blow up families at weddings. I'm pretty sure there's a context when we do that. In case you've forgotten, the South African Army* and police gunned down schoolchildren on a regular basis; this is the reality; it was a war and it was a justifiable war. The ANC didn't have UAVs, or tanks or helicopter gunships, so...bombings and assassinations. I don't know enough about the individual attacks to know if there was any "military" justification for anything the ANC did, but then I don't have much of a clue about why we blow up Afghan weddings either. Oh and just to be clear, this doesn't mean I think all terrorist campaigns are justified, far from it, but South Africa is one of the more unequivocal cases (the Maquis and WWII Partisans would be pretty much the only examples that were more justified).

(*it was because they didn't want us ending up conscripted into the South African army when we grew up that my parents brought us back from SA, and they were right).