Rewarding Work

Benefit capping, how do you feel about this?


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rynnor

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The other problem with this system is that its eminently scammable - anyone could set up a company for something innocuous that 'employs' these people in exchange for a fee equal to their wages + 50 quid a week - they would easily get more back from working family tax credits than this 50 quid and everyone except the taxpayers a winner :p
 

Moriath

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wheres your study that shows that long term benefit claimants want to work ? Im sure some do, some think they do until they actually try it and give up because they dont want to get up in the morning, and others dont even try..

The ones that do should be encouraged to get any job they can, from burger flipping to cleaning or what ever. It shouldnt pay to be on benefits over having any type of job. There are people out there that i dont want to do that job, i dont want that job its below me. where as you should take the job then work while you are looking for a better one.

There wouldnt be so many eastern europeans over here if the brits did the manual jobs as well as them because we have some work ethic that says i shouldnt have to get dirty or work up a sweat to earn a living.

There was a guy on TV the other day wouldnt work in a certain shop because his pride wouldnt let him.

Another dude wouldnt work unless he could get 18k a year. The system should be so that it is always better off to work over not working.
 

rynnor

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There wouldnt be so many eastern europeans over here if the brits did the manual jobs as well as them because we have some work ethic that says i shouldnt have to get dirty or work up a sweat to earn a living.

My brother in law is an interesting case study - he was out of work for something like 15 years from when he left school - he lives with his parents in a tiny village with buses 4x a day and neither of his parents could drive.

There are literally no jobs in the village - no pub and the village shop is but a memory - most of the housing is second homes which are only occupied on the odd weekend.

After 15 years he managed to get a job as a minicab controller working for a friend of the family - he thrived in the job but the minicab firms owner passed away and they closed down. He was determined to get another job and eventually got temporary work as a binman where he has worked for the past few years. Not many people are that fussy after a few years on the dole but opportunities can be difficult to get in some places and people with big holes in their cv are not exactly at the top of the queue!

On eastern europeans they are popular in grunt work because they will work illegally below minimum wage so employers gravitate to them - I think the fussy brit is largely a myth.
 

Scouse

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The ones that do should be encouraged to get any job they can

Then employers should pay a living wage that makes work worth it.

There wouldnt be so many eastern europeans over here if the brits did the manual jobs

They come over, earn for a bit, then fuck off back home where the money can go 5 times further. Do you really think they'd come over here for a shit wage if there wasn't an angle?
 

DaGaffer

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wheres your study that shows that long term benefit claimants want to work ? Im sure some do, some think they do until they actually try it and give up because they dont want to get up in the morning, and others dont even try..

The ones that do should be encouraged to get any job they can, from burger flipping to cleaning or what ever. It shouldnt pay to be on benefits over having any type of job. There are people out there that i dont want to do that job, i dont want that job its below me. where as you should take the job then work while you are looking for a better one.

There wouldnt be so many eastern europeans over here if the brits did the manual jobs as well as them because we have some work ethic that says i shouldnt have to get dirty or work up a sweat to earn a living.

There was a guy on TV the other day wouldnt work in a certain shop because his pride wouldnt let him.

Another dude wouldnt work unless he could get 18k a year. The system should be so that it is always better off to work over not working.


First of all, this cut isn't just for long term claimants, its for everyone, so the point is moot, because financially the long term claimants aren't the drain on the public purse you seem to think they are.

Second, Eastern Europeans come over, live in shit conditions, earn cash, go home, and in many cases are young and don't have commitments. Its not a valid comparison. The whole "I won't do that" workshy Brit angle is another myth, because it misses half the story, which is "I won't do that because the net effect of going to work all day for that wage is that I'll be worse off". Its really easy to say it should always be better off to work than not work, but the practical reality is that unless you raise the minimum wage to unsustainable levels, for lots of jobs that simply will never be the case because the work doesn't cover its own costs; this is particularly the case when you have to factor in child-care. Over here in Ireland, everyone's done the maths; if you're a woman with two kids and your husband works for anything above the average national wage, you'd have to earn thirty-seven thousand Euros to make returning to work full time viable after childcare and transport costs. And that's break-even, you're effectively working because you want to not because its contributing to the household. In the UK the figure will be a bit lower, but not that much because of family credits etc.

This is what pisses me off about this whole thing; policies driven by soundbites not actual economics. Believe it or not, the DSS and the Inland Revenue are not total morons; they worked out the cost/benefit of state benefits to the economy a long time ago.
 

Moriath

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The whole "I won't do that" workshy Brit angle is another myth, because it misses half the story, which is "I won't do that because the net effect of going to work all day for that wage is that I'll be worse off".

Which is why they system needs to be changed so that any work is better than being on the dole.

So your working gradually lessens the money from benefits not removes them all immediately.
 

DaGaffer

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The whole "I won't do that" workshy Brit angle is another myth, because it misses half the story, which is "I won't do that because the net effect of going to work all day for that wage is that I'll be worse off".

Which is why they system needs to be changed so that any work is better than being on the dole.

So your working gradually lessens the money from benefits not removes them all immediately.


But it doesn't. And I'd bet the bureaucracy of gradual reductions probably costs more than doing what civilised countries, like those workshy Germans do, which is offer free childcare. But of course the average Tory would have his butler shoot him in the face before he countenanced anything as socialist as that.
 

BloodOmen

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Muh, benefits is always a touchy subject for me, on them currently myself due to Agoraphobia + Depression - before those kicked in however I did work and I did pay tax thus I shall have my say.

(and just in case anyone was wondering I'm financially worse off on benefits than I was when working before the trolls come out, about £14,000 a year worse off)

No one can really deny benefits do/did need fixing, the simple fact is benefits have gotten to a stage where most people can literally be financially better off on the dole/other benefits due to poor average wages (not everyone can go out and get a job that pays £21,000-£60,000 a year sadly) the way IDS (Iain Duncan Smith naturally) is handling it however is a bit shite, its all very well saying "We have to get people back into work" but when you basically take a swipe at X benefit just to root out the scroungers it also effects people with genuine illness, which is wrong.

I categorize benefit claimants in 7 ways

- Legit claimants - people with genuine physical or mental illness fall under this
- Uneducated - people either in education or seeking help to do so
- Lazy sods - people who simply cannot be arsed to work and think the state owes them something (normally the ones having anywhere from 5-10 kids for more £££)
- Better off - people who genuinely feel they are financially better off on benefits for whatever reason
- Fiddlers - people who work at the same time as claiming benefits (generally cash in hand jobs like pizza shops etc)
- Lazy migrants - migrants coming to the UK for nothing but the benefit gravy train and have no intention of ever looking for work
- Other migrants - migrants on benefits currently looking for education or even a job in the UK

Bottom line is and was benefits do need fixing but they have to do it properly.

The govs answer to getting people back into work is through a company called Atos who basically perform medical assessments (which sounds all hunky dory on the surface but when you dig deeper...) I'll put some info below about Atos just to show you how people with genuine illness are being fucked over, I advise you reading it (i'm not talking about the scrounging families that have 6-10 kids and are getting £27,000-£40,000 a year in benefits, I'm talking about people in wheel chairs, people with mental health disorders, people that only have one arm or one leg)

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Courageous Scottish nurse Joyce Drummond, who made a heartfelt apology to Atos assessment victims, has submitted evidence to the Scottish Parliament Select Committee on Welfare Reform.Joyce forwarded some of her notes to me, containing this information about Atos assessments. I have edited where needed, organised the notes and added some information to the text. I’ve included the contents from Joyce’s notes in full.“I knew nothing about Atos when I joined, and left as soon as I realised that there was no way to fight from the inside. I carried out Incapacity Benefit assessments, these were the forerunner to Employment Support Allowance (ESA) assessments. I stated at my interview for the job that I believed in social inclusion and social justice.
I went for 4 weeks training in England. The training did not prepare me for what I was expected to do in real life.

The forms that are completed prior to assessment, I have recently found out, are opened by Royal Mail Staff. They are then sent for “scrutiny” where nurses decide whether or not a face to face assessment is required. I was not involved in this and do not know what criteria are used. It is made clear throughout training and working that we are not nurses- we aredisability analysts. Also, we do not carry out ‘medical assessments’ – we carry out ‘functional assessments’. We did not even need a diagnosis to carry out assessments. I had reservations around consent, as we were expected to assess patients – sorry, we didn’t have patients, we had ‘claimants’ - who appeared to be under the influence of alcohol or other substances. We were also consistently told that we did not make benefit decisions. The final decision was made by a DWP decision maker with no medical qualification. If our assessment was overturned at appeal we never knew about it. There was no accountability for assessments overruled.”Assessment starts on the day of your appointment with the Health Care Professional (HCP) reading the form you completed when you applied for benefit. Remember that every single question you are asked is designed to justify ending your claim for ESA and passing you as “fit for work”. That is what Atos are contracted to do by the Government.This is not a genuine assessment, but rather, an opportunity for the DWP to take away the financial support that you are entitled to.Things that are noted at this stage are:
  • Did you complete the form yourself
  • Is the handwriting legible
  • Are the contents coherent
These observations are already used in assessing your hand function, your cognitive state and concentration.Further observations made:
  • Do the things you have written add up
  • Does your medication support your diagnosis
  • What tests you have had to confirm diagnosis. For example a diagnosis of sciatica is not accepted unless diagnosed by MRI scan
  • Do you have supporting medical evidence from your GP or consultants. If you do, it shows that you are able to organise getting this information
“This is also a hidden cost to the NHS. I believe that if ATOS request information there is a charge levied by GP’s. However claimants are expected to source medical evidence themselves. It uses valuable NHS time for medical staff to write supporting statements.

There were no hidden cameras, at least in Glasgow, to watch people arriving for assessment or sitting in waiting room. This may not be true in other areas.”When the HCP has read your form they input some data into the computer system. The assessment properly begins when they call your name in the waiting room.At this point the HCP assesses:
  • Did you hear your name being called
  • Did you rise from your chair unaided, did the chair have support arms or not
  • Were you accompanied – assessing your ability to go out alone
  • Were you reading a paper while waiting – assessing your concentration
  • Did you walk to the assessment room unaided, did you use any aids correctly. Did you navigate any obstacles safely – assessing sight
The HCP will shake your hand on introduction – assessing your handshake, noting if are you trembling, sweating – signs of anxiety. The HCP carefully scrutinises everything you do and say. The HCP will often ask on way to waiting room:
  • How long you’ve been waiting – assessing ability to sit, physically, and appraising your mental state
  • How did you get here today – assessing ability to drive or use public transport
Formal assessment begins by listing medical conditions/complaints. For each complaint you will be asked:
  • How long have you had it, have you seen a specialist
  • Have you had any tests, what treatments have you had
  • What’s your current treatment. Have you had any other specialist input e.g. physiotherapy, CPN
The HCP will use lack of specialist input/ hospital admissions to justify assessing your condition as less severe. Medications will be listed and it will be noted if they prescribed or bought. Dates will be checked on boxes to assess compliance with dosage and treatment regime. Any allergies or side-effects should be noted.
  • A brief note is made of how you feel each condition affects your life
  • A brief social history will be taken – who you live with, if have you stairs in your house or steps outside your house
  • Employment history taken – asking when you last worked, what you work entailed, reason for leaving employment
Your typical day – this is the part of the assessment where how you function on a day to day basis is used to justify the HCP decisions. Anything you say here is what is most likely to be used to justify you failing your assessment and being passed as “fit for work”. Along side this, the HCP records their observations.Starting with your sleep pattern, questions are asked around your ability to function. This will include:
  • Lower limb problems – ability to mobilise to shops, around the house, drive, use public transport, dress, shower
  • Upper limb – ability to wash, dress, cook, shop, complete ESA form
  • Vision – did you manage to navigate safely to assessment room
  • Hearing – did you hear your name being called in waiting room
  • Speech – could the HCP understand you at assessment
  • Continence – do you describe incontinence NOT CONTROLLED by pads, medication. Do you mention its effects on your life when describing your typical day
  • Consciousness – Do you suffer seizures – with loss of continence, possible injury, witnessed, or uncontrolled diabetes
  • HCP observations include – how far did you walk to examination room, did you remove your coat independently, did you handle medications without difficulty, did you bend to pick up your handbag
Formal examination consists of simple movements to assess limited function. Things the HCP also looks at:
  • Are you well presented, hair done, wearing make-up, eyebrows waxed
  • Do you have any pets – this can be linked with ability to bend to feed and walk
  • Do you look after someone else – as a parent or carer- if you do, this will be taken as evidence of functioning
  • Any training, voluntary work, socialising – this will be used as evidence of functioning
This is not a comprehensive list, but it gives you an idea of how seemingly innocent questions are used to justify HCP decisions to pass you as “fit for work.”Mental Health:
  • Learning tasks – Can you use a phone, computer, washing machine
  • Hazards – Can you safely make tea, if claiming accident, there must have been some emergency services involvement, e.g. fire service. Near miss accidents do not count
Personal Actions:
  • Can you wash, dress, gather evidence for assessment
  • Do you manage bills
Further observations made by the HCP – appearance and presentation:
  • Coping with assessment interview – any abnormal thoughts, hallucinations, confusion
  • Coping with change – ability to attend assessment, attend GP or hospital appointments, shopping and socialising
More HCP observations:
  • Appearance, eye contact, rapport, any signs/symptoms that are abnormal mood/thoughts/perceptions. Any suicidal thoughts
  • Coping with social engagement/appropriateness of behaviour – any inappropriate behaviour must have involved police to be considered significant
  • Ability to attend assessment, engage with assessor, behave appropriately
Again, this is not an exhaustive list, merely some examples.Further information: At present to qualify for ESA you need to score 15 points, unless the Exceptional Circumstances Regulations apply to you. The 15 points can be a combination of scores from physical and mental health descriptors.To qualify for the Support Group you must score 15 points in one section.
As long as you are claiming income-based ESA then your award can be renewed at each assessment, if you gain 15 points.You may also qualify without meeting the 15 points criterion, even if you don’t score any points, because of Exceptional Circumstances (Regulation 29 and Regulation 35, (or 25 and 31 for Universal Credit – see link at the foot of article) if there would be a substantial risk to your mental or physical health if you were found not to have limited capability for work. Regulation 29 is about exceptional circumstances for being assessed as having limited capability for work (WRAG) , and Regulation 35 is about being assessed as having limited capability for work-related activity (Support Group).Special cases – exemptions from assessment include those people having: terminal illness, intravenous chemotherapy treatment and danger to self or others if found fit to work.Contribution-based ESA lasts for 1 year only, unless you are in the support group. After 1 year in the work-related activity group, you may only get income-based ESA if your household income is below a certain threshold. It makes no difference how long you have previously paid National Insurance.“For clarity, as far as I know in the real world, doctors carry out medical assessments, nurses carry out nursing assessments and physios carry out physiotherapy assessments. In the world of Atos, each of these separate professions are employed as disability analysts, carrying out functional assessments.Nurses are employable for these posts if they have been qualified for at least 3 years, are registered to practice with the NMC, and have basic computer skills.
My interview consisted of-
  • Face to face interview with medical director and nurse team leader.
  • A written paper assessing a scenario, in my case someone with back pain
  • A 10 minute basic computer test
In order to be approved as disability analyst I had to complete 4 weeks Atos disability training, reach a certain standard of assessment reports – as decided by audit of all cases seen (don’t know what criteria was) and finally approval to carry out Work Capability Assessments (WCA) from the Secretary for Work and Pensions.In my opinion the money given to Atos and spent on tribunals should be given to NHS GPs. They are best placed to make assessments regarding patients work capability. They have access to all medical reports, past history, specialist input and know their patients. My concern would be what criteria the DWP would impose on GPs risking the doctor/patient relationship. GPs already assess patients for “fit notes”, which have to be submitted to DWP during assessment phase of ESA.

While I worked at Atos, sessional medical staff were being paid £40 per assessment, as far as I am aware. I have no idea of wages of permanent medical staff. Nurses were on a salary, which based on 10 assessments a day (Atos target) equalled around £10 per assessment. These are approximate figures but may give a clue as to why Atos are employing nurses rather than doctors.”Appendix Most Atos HCPs are not doctors, they are usually nurses or occupational therapists. There are some conditions that will mean you need to be assessed by a qualified specialist nurse, or a doctor and you can ask for this.List of conditions judged suitable for assessment by neuro trained nurses/any health care profession:
Prolapsed intervertebral disc
Lumbar nerve root compression
Sciatica
Slipped disc
Lumbar spondylosis
Lumbar spondylolisthesis
Lumbar spondylolysis
Cauda equina syndrome
Spinal stenosis
Peripheral neuropathy
Neuropathy
Drop foot
Meralgia paraesthetica
Cervical spondylosis
Cervical nerve root compression
Cervicalgia
Nerve entrapment syndrome
Carpal tunnel syndrome
Trapped nerve
Paraesthesia
Tingling
Numbness
Brachial plexus injury
Polyneuropathy
Dizziness
Vertigo
Essential Tremor
VWF
Alzheimer’sList of conditions judged by the DWP and Atos Healthcare as suitable only for assessment by doctors:
Stroke
Head injury with neuro sequelaeBrain haemorrhage
Sub Arachnoid Haemorrhage
Brain tumour
Acoustic Neuroma
Multiple Sclerosis
Motor Neurone Disease
Parkinson’s disease
TIAs
Bulbar Palsy
Myasthenia Gravis
Muscular Dystrophy
Guillain-Barre Syndrome
Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis
Syringomyelia
Neurofibromatosis
Spina bifida
Polio
Fits (secondary to brain tumour)
Learning difficulties (with physical problems)
Nystagmus Myelitis
Bells Palsy
Trigeminal Neuralgia
Paraplegia
Quadriplegia
Huntington’s Chorea
Huntington’s Disease
 

BloodOmen

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Lazy migrants? Migrants are not entitled to benefits until they've been here a certain amount of time/worked/etc.


Depends where they're from, its a silly system they have and differs from migrants and asylum seekers.
 

BloodOmen

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I deny that.

WORK needs fixing. Not benefits.

I actually don't deny that, if they raised national minimum wage perhaps more would feel compelled to get off their backsides for it. I was fortunate enough to have quite a good job before agoraphobia/depression came about, physically demanding but the pay was great and I got to travel all over the UK.
 

chipper

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what it boils down to is inflation. prices have gone up wages haven't. but benefits are assessed on a yearly basis and go up accordingly. i work hard 40+ hours a week and i get an ok wage for it 21k a year. 3 years ago id have been sitting pretty with that. but with bills and overall inflation on things like food utilities petrol etc going up exponentially every year my annual pay rise of between 1-2% doesn't even come close to matching current inflation. so each year i find myself a bit worse off even though im actually earning more money. my partner doesnt work and i readily admit that doesn't help our financial matters but i think its more important for her to bring our son up till school age than work.

capping the benefits is gonna screw over more genuine cases of help than it will actual fraudulent claims.
 

Aada

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I actually don't deny that, if they raised national minimum wage perhaps more would feel compelled to get off their backsides for it. I was fortunate enough to have quite a good job before agoraphobia/depression came about, physically demanding but the pay was great and I got to travel all over the UK.

Don't you ever feel like getting over your fears? getting some proper help?

Surely for your childs sake you would give it a go, I can't imagine on how much you will both miss out.

Not having ago at you btw :)
 

BloodOmen

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Don't you ever feel like getting over your fears? getting some proper help?

Surely for your childs sake you would give it a go, I can't imagine on how much you will both miss out.

Not having ago at you btw :)


It's a bit more complicated mate, will inbox you because I don't feel like sharing all the details surrounding it :)
 

Moriath

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i spent months like that with my aspergers before i was diagnosed ... felt sick and shacking just getting to the top of the road and all ... took ages to get through it, managed to keep hold of me job as i could work from home but also had a lot of time signed off by the doctors.

Its shit and can be very dibilitating
 

BloodOmen

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i spent months like that with my aspergers before i was diagnosed ... felt sick and shacking just getting to the top of the road and all ... took ages to get through it, managed to keep hold of me job as i could work from home but also had a lot of time signed off by the doctors.

Its shit and can be very dibilitating


With me its places with lots of people and/or strangers.
 

TdC

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Don't you ever feel like getting over your fears? getting some proper help?

not always that cut and dried, mate. a chum from uni has a fairly extreme issue with dogs and he has to do some pretty hard core stuff like mental calming exercises to stay in control if he even sees a dog in the distance.
 

Moriath

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tis true .. took a long long time for me to get past my screwed up head .. some from this thread prob say my heads still screwed up. But i still cant go to the cinema and crowded places still make me feel uncomfortable.
 

BloodOmen

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Another thing I've just found out as well (that I didn't know, not sure if you all did) housing benefit is the single most chunk cost out of all the benefits

Jobseekers cost per year - £4,800,000,000
Housing benefit per year - £22,400,000,000

Mental costs right there, the biggest thing about it? its not only unemployed claiming housing benefit, its people that work as well, they can claim it if they they get paid a low wage.
 

Aoami

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Those figures must be old. There are 2.5m unemployed so by those figures DWP are paying unemployed people an average of £1,920 a year, or £36 a week, which is exactly half of the basic rate. With regards to benefits themselves, I have recently signed on so can add my 2 cents. I'm getting £71 a week, and living rent free at my dads whilst looking for work. I've been out of work for a while but been travelling and had a lot of savings so haven't been looking too hard for work until the last month. £71 is fine, as as I said i'm living rent free and don't really have any outgoings, as I don't know anyone anymore where i'm living so save my money to go out every other weekend in London or up to my girlfriends. The only thing i'd like to see is a system to claim money back for job search related costs. For instance, i'm looking for temp work in my local area, or perm work in London - now if I get a job interview in London, that's £40 to get there. For me, it's not a big issue, but there are probably people in my situation for whom that is just too much money. If you can prove that you were paying that £40 to attend an interview i'd like to see a way to claim it back from DWP.
 

Aoami

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Are the unemployed and unemployable separate things? A serious question even if it sounds sarcastic.
 

Moriath

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There's job seekers who get that allowance and the others who don't show they are looking for work who get less
 

Raven

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If you are fit to work then you should be either working or seeking work. Only then should you receive the dole.

While I understand this is just a small part of the amount spent on benefits, most goes to the elderly or the disabled (whether physically or mentally), There are still people that refuse to work or seek work because they can't be arsed, yet still get benefits. Overall it wont make a massive difference to the expenditure and is clearly a vote winning exercise, however it is correct to remove benefits from the lazy out of principle.

As a society we should look after those that cannot work but not those that refuse to work.

As for paying people mortgages when they are out of work, this should be done for 6 months at most. Anything after that the government should take a share of the property if they are paying for it. I don't see why people should expect to have their house bought for them by government...
 

DaGaffer

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If you are fit to work then you should be either working or seeking work. Only then should you receive the dole.

While I understand this is just a small part of the amount spent on benefits, most goes to the elderly or the disabled (whether physically or mentally), There are still people that refuse to work or seek work because they can't be arsed, yet still get benefits. Overall it wont make a massive difference to the expenditure and is clearly a vote winning exercise, however it is correct to remove benefits from the lazy out of principle.

As a society we should look after those that cannot work but not those that refuse to work.

As for paying people mortgages when they are out of work, this should be done for 6 months at most. Anything after that the government should take a share of the property if they are paying for it. I don't see why people should expect to have their house bought for them by government...


Which is why I put "other" in my vote, because while I agree with what you're saying in principle, if chasing down the shiftless causes more net harm overall to society (which this exercise will), then what's the point? As all the actual statistics show, and I keep pointing out, the actual figures for benefit fraud and the actual drain on the economy of the shiftless is much smaller than the public thinks it is. Just like they think crime is higher, we've got more immigrants than we do, and everyone is now muslim. The government is playing on the perception not the reality. The simple fact is that in every society everywhere, you'll never get rid of the scumbags and the permanently bone idle. They've always been there, its just that before the Welfare State they relied exclusively on crime to make a living, rather than mostly on crime.
 

bainteor

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I vehemently disagree. There are better ways to save money. Also, a very low proportion of benefit claimants abuse the system, despite what the media will have you believe.

I believe that all this furore is just another way of keeping the proles fighting each other, whilst the Inner Party protect their wealth unnoticed.
 

mr.Blacky

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So this is about a maximum in what can be claimed?
After tax and benefits the average household income between the top and bottom fifth are £53,900 and £13,600 (2008 and 2009)
26k is almost double of the amount the lowest are incomes, so I cant really say I'm against that amount.
But good pr I guess from reading these posts.
 

rynnor

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bainteor said:
I believe that all this furore is just another way of keeping the proles fighting each other, whilst the Inner Party protect their wealth unnoticed.

Pretty much - this saves about half the cash we gave to the top rate taxpayers in their last tax cut.
 

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