Realm Abilities and their importance in DAoC?

[Stallion]

ofc it have something to do with the dmg diffrence, even with resists piercing and toa bonuses a chanter wouldn't do the same amount of dmg with a debuff nuke as they did back then tbh

formula is the same except the debuff which would give a far less boost compared to ToA bonsues. And the debuff is stil in the game but with a reduced 'OP'ness'. Add ontop of that relics..

 

[-Freezingwiz-]

formula is the same except the debuff which would give a far less boost compared to ToA bonsues. And the debuff is stil in the game but with a reduced 'OP'ness'. Add ontop of that relics..

ye the formula is the same, but the debuff is so much weaker than back then so u don't just cap dmg everytime unlike before, maybe as rr 12 u might do same dmg but a rr 3 would back in OF with the old debuff etc but that is not really a good way to compair as he would have a huge variance now

-and yes relics helped a lot back then aswell so there were absolutly no variance at all

 

[Stallion]

ye the formula is the same, but the debuff is so much weaker than back then so u don't just cap dmg everytime unlike before, maybe as rr 12 u might do same dmg but a rr 3 would back in OF with the old debuff etc but that is not really a good way to compair as he would have a huge variance now

-and yes relics helped a lot back then aswell so there were absolutly no variance at all

the debuff is not much weaker today then back then (se this link for description, https://forums.freddyshouse.com/showpost.php?p=2747427&postcount=74 , and I think you live under a false impression we did more dmg back then since we had relics for 2-3 years in a row. (was a major change in damage with NF beeing introduced and relics reset) (with debuff beeing the same pre NF and after NF at that time.) This dosent affect variance, but with with majority with low heat in template and almost NEVER having a friar (or as today CL resists) (mainly because most albs ran in zergs) they were hit for conciderebly harder.

 

[Muylaetrix]

i have the `impression` that back then (OF) debuffs took the damage to things like you hit for 680 (+200) and that the formulas have been changed to have diminishing results so that debuffs usually take you close to xxx(-0) but having extrem high (+xxx) seems very rare these days.

with the limited experience i have with debuffing resists ( 20% and 15 % ice debuffs and 10 % passive resist pierce) i tend to find it will give me neglectable (+xx) even on a 0% resists target. works nice to go from 300 (-300) to 450 (-150) or so but i have never seen 667 (+75) instead of 600 (+0).

 

[Vodkafairy]

debuffs do go below 0% and it happens quite a lot you get lots of + dmg tbh

 

[-Freezingwiz-]

I know about the debuff Stallion....

but the big diffrence from back then to now is that u can't go below -5% (I think it is... I tested it a looong time ago when they changed the debuff)

but back then u could debuff ppl with 0% resists down to -50% resists, and ppl with 25% down to -25% etc that was what made it so inzane even with only 20 in light spec



but I'll happly try to test it when I get hom from work to see if it was -5% that was the negative cap

(with debuff beeing the same pre NF and after NF at that time.) This dosent affect variance, but with with majority with low heat in template and almost NEVER having a friar (or as today CL resists)

and about that, if u think of it this way about the variance

there is a random change that u will do between 50% up to 125% or or so if u only spec 20 in a spec line (I'm not sure about the numbers.... but just trying to make a point)

then ewul chanter come and debuff u and it would look something like this:

(just gonna say the nuke normally cap for 100 dmg with 0% resists to make it easyere for me)

Item resists, debuff value, resists after debuff, dmg varriance, acually dmg

50% resists...50% debuff... 0% resists ...........50% dmg........ 50 dmg
50% resists...50% debuff... 0% resists ...........75% dmg........ 75 dmg
50% resists...50% debuff... 0% resists ...........100% dmg...... 100 dmg
50% resists...50% debuff... 0% resists ...........125% dmg...... 125 dmg

25% resists...50% debuff... -25% resists ........50% dmg......... 62.5 dmg
25% resists...50% debuff... -25% resists ........75% dmg......... 93.75 dmg
25% resists...50% debuff... -25% resists ........100% dmg....... 125 dmg
25% resists...50% debuff... -25% resists ........125% dmg....... 156.25 dmg

0% resists.....50% rebuff.... -50% resists........50% dmg ........ 75 dmg
0% resists.....50% rebuff.... -50% resists........75% dmg ........ 112.5 dmg
0% resists.....50% rebuff.... -50% resists........100% dmg ....... 150 dmg
0% resists.....50% rebuff.... -50% resists........125% dmg ....... 187.5 dmg





I dono if it's understandable but in my head it is at least

but it just show even tho u have variance then because u debuffed so much negative in OF u would hit cap easy and add 20% extra on that cuz u had 3 relics then it's almost impossble not to cap the dmg even with a lot of variance.

but as u said about template etc, then my wiz had 26% heat resists, 1k HP (200 in template and 75 con) and he got 2 shotted back then, but my sorc now have almost 1500/1600 hp with 80 con and 196 hp in template, I know I got some from DR but that ain't 500/600 HP so there must have gotten some HP from somewhere else aswell (and it's not the 5con diffrence from avaloonie to saracen that does it either )

but the point is just even before CL resists chanters didn't do the same dmg as back then cuz of the debuff nerf


edit: acually I think my wiz have +5 con from start and my sorc don't have any so that is the same.... and the debuff only lasting 8 secs now before resists is a big diffrence aswell so u can keep nukeing even if ppl get healed then u will loose a lot of dmg aswell

 

[Sparx]

i said yes

 

[Stallion]

i have the `impression` that back then (OF) debuffs took the damage to things like you hit for 680 (+200) and that the formulas have been changed to have diminishing results so that debuffs usually take you close to xxx(-0) but having extrem high (+xxx) seems very rare these days.

with the limited experience i have with debuffing resists ( 20% and 15 % ice debuffs and 10 % passive resist pierce) i tend to find it will give me neglectable (+xx) even on a 0% resists target. works nice to go from 300 (-300) to 450 (-150) or so but i have never seen 667 (+75) instead of 600 (+0).

resist pierce aint in the formula if you reach 0%.

 

[-Freezingwiz-]

resist pierce aint in the formula if you reach 0%.

aye, that was why a lot of ppl played mentalists with 25% resists piercing in OF before the 10% resists piercing nerf

 

[Stallion]

I know about the debuff Stallion....

but the big diffrence from back then to now is that u can't go below -5% (I think it is... I tested it a looong time ago when they changed the debuff)

but back then u could debuff ppl with 0% resists down to -50% resists, and ppl with 25% down to -25% etc that was what made it so inzane even with only 20 in light spec



but I'll happly try to test it when I get hom from work to see if it was -5% that was the negative cap



and about that, if u think of it this way about the variance

there is a random change that u will do between 50% up to 125% or or so if u only spec 20 in a spec line (I'm not sure about the numbers.... but just trying to make a point)

then ewul chanter come and debuff u and it would look something like this:

(just gonna say the nuke normally cap for 100 dmg with 0% resists to make it easyere for me)

Item resists, debuff value, resists after debuff, dmg varriance, acually dmg

50% resists...50% debuff... 0% resists ...........50% dmg........ 50 dmg
50% resists...50% debuff... 0% resists ...........75% dmg........ 75 dmg
50% resists...50% debuff... 0% resists ...........100% dmg...... 100 dmg
50% resists...50% debuff... 0% resists ...........125% dmg...... 125 dmg

25% resists...50% debuff... -25% resists ........50% dmg......... 62.5 dmg
25% resists...50% debuff... -25% resists ........75% dmg......... 93.75 dmg
25% resists...50% debuff... -25% resists ........100% dmg....... 125 dmg
25% resists...50% debuff... -25% resists ........125% dmg....... 156.25 dmg

0% resists.....50% rebuff.... -50% resists........50% dmg ........ 75 dmg
0% resists.....50% rebuff.... -50% resists........75% dmg ........ 112.5 dmg
0% resists.....50% rebuff.... -50% resists........100% dmg ....... 150 dmg
0% resists.....50% rebuff.... -50% resists........125% dmg ....... 187.5 dmg





I dono if it's understandable but in my head it is at least

but it just show even tho u have variance then because u debuffed so much negative in OF u would hit cap easy and add 20% extra on that cuz u had 3 relics then it's almost impossble not to cap the dmg even with a lot of variance.

but as u said about template etc, then my wiz had 26% heat resists, 1k HP (200 in template and 75 con) and he got 2 shotted back then, but my sorc now have almost 1500/1600 hp with 80 con and 196 hp in template, I know I got some from DR but that ain't 500/600 HP so there must have gotten some HP from somewhere else aswell (and it's not the 5con diffrence from avaloonie to saracen that does it either )

but the point is just even before CL resists chanters didn't do the same dmg as back then cuz of the debuff nerf


edit: acually I think my wiz have +5 con from start and my sorc don't have any so that is the same.... and the debuff only lasting 8 secs now before resists is a big diffrence aswell so u can keep nukeing even if ppl get healed then u will loose a lot of dmg aswell

if you would have read my thread you can see that you can debuff to a maximum of 31% since the change. And no 50% back then wasent the deal, heh, since it was 25/25, not 50% right off, but you got a boost if the character had spell based resists buffs (im not quite sure how big this one was). Having that cleared the change is actully not that big even if we would make the assumtion you would debuff to -50% back then (something I never got to do during the 1½ years I played before the change) compared to todays max -31%.

Variance aint based of the resists but your modified light vs the level of the player. Having 2/3 of your level brings you to 75% - 125%. Having it closer to your level (50) decreases the lower % rate to higher values. ie mine 44 light, I have around 90% - 125%.

And in your table you assume dmg boost is 50% more dmg if you have -50% resists. This isnt the fact. You do hit for more, but the boost aint that easy to calculate. For instance I capped 8/10 nukes back before relics got reset (609 cap at the time). After relics were reset I nuked for perma 500~ on the same target. This is when debuff was the same pre reset and after. You do almost always cap on targets with 0% or very little heat resists.

Even tho u have variance then because u debuffed so much negative in OF u would hit cap easy and add 20% extra on that cuz u had 3 relics then it's almost impossble not to cap the dmg even with a lot of variance.

Explain to me if your argument is gonna hold.
Scenario 1. I nuke for cap with 3 relics in OF pre debuff change.
Scenario 2. I nuke for around 100 less without relics in NF pre debuff change.


And your table is way off, thats just assumtions, not facts.
Variance today is the same as it was in OF pre debuff change. Debuff as I showed above wasent the dmg amplifier, it was the relics. (dont missunderstand me it was an amplifier, but if you compare old times with today, it was mainly due to the relics).

but as u said about template etc, then my wiz had 26% heat resists, 1k HP (200 in template and 75 con) and he got 2 shotted back then, but my sorc now have almost 1500/1600 hp with 80 con and 196 hp in template, I know I got some from DR but that ain't 500/600 HP so there must have gotten some HP from somewhere else aswell (and it's not the 5con diffrence from avaloonie to saracen that does it either )

Not sure what you are ona bout. CL5 gives 10% more HP/power.
heh yes you will be 2 shooted in OF with 1khp, same today.

1500/600 HP is buffed no? I dont see how you can have 1k hp with a wiz in OF fully buffed and with 200 hits and 75 con in template. Was it due to running in zerg unbuffed and now running in grouped buffed maybe? Game evolevs I guess

I ran with 1448 HP in OF on enchanter fully buffed.

 

[Stallion]

aye, that was why a lot of ppl played mentalists with 25% resists piercing in OF before the 10% resists piercing nerf

try it yourself haha. if you check delve its ITEM RESISTS. if you have 0 % from items, it debuffs for 0%. Why ppl wanted to have 25% stacking resistpierce was cause you wanted maximum effeciency no matter target. Even if you have 26% resists you would be nuked for having 1%. Capish?

 

[stubbe]

having tons and tons of RA's doesent equal skill. only thing it does is to make fights that much easier. just compare to how it was as far back as pre SI when we didnt even HAVE RA's. THEN u needed skill to win. now its just all about dumping the RA's u have faster then the enemy and ur pretty much sorted.

I didn't say having tons of RAs equal skill. What I said was that if two people have the same set of RAs the skill in using them at the right time (as with any other ability) is the very definition of skill in this game. Thus, more abilities in the game means more skill needed to use them.

And comparing the game in it's current state to pre RAs might just be the most retarded thing ever. Before RAs CC was the fight, first person to land the insta-mez was likely to win a fight. When there were no way of healing at the same rate as damage was dealt, when there was no demez, is that your idea of a skillbased game? The game completely lacked the element of teamplay compared to today. Groups ran with healclasses for buffs and CC only, because healing was futile compared to adding another damagedealer.. If that is what you long for, I would say you have completely lost perspective .

Over and out.

 

[Muylaetrix]

And comparing the game in it's current state to pre RAs might just be the most retarded thing ever. Before RAs CC was the fight, first person to land the insta-mez was likely to win a fight. When there were no way of healing at the same rate as damage was dealt, when there was no demez, is that your idea of a skillbased game? The game completely lacked the element of teamplay compared to today. Groups ran with healclasses for buffs and CC only, because healing was futile compared to adding another damagedealer.. If that is what you long for, I would say you have completely lost perspective .

:worthy:

 

[-Freezingwiz-]

try it yourself haha. if you check delve its ITEM RESISTS. if you have 0 % from items, it debuffs for 0%. Why ppl wanted to have 25% stacking resistpierce was cause you wanted maximum effeciency no matter target. Even if you have 26% resists you would be nuked for having 1%. Capish?

I know... ^^ that was why ppl played light mentalists so much even tho they couldn't debuff for there own dmg

 

[-Freezingwiz-]

if you would have read my thread you can see that you can debuff to a maximum of 31% since the change. And no 50% back then wasent the deal, heh, since it was 25/25, not 50% right off, but you got a boost if the character had spell based resists buffs (im not quite sure how big this one was). Having that cleared the change is actully not that big even if we would make the assumtion you would debuff to -50% back then (something I never got to do during the 1½ years I played before the change) compared to todays max -31%.

my m8's chanter account was closed so I couldn't check and there were no chanters around when I logged on the test it but I'm almost 100% sure it was -5% when I tested it..

Explain to me if your argument is gonna hold.
Scenario 1. I nuke for cap with 3 relics in OF pre debuff change.
Scenario 2. I nuke for around 100 less without relics in NF pre debuff change.

Relics make u hit closer to the cap, not add dmg to the cap, but if u because of your % variance would hit for just below the cap with out the relics, then with the same % amount of variance u would hit the cap

And your table is way off, thats just assumtions, not facts.
Variance today is the same as it was in OF pre debuff change. Debuff as I showed above wasent the dmg amplifier, it was the relics. (dont missunderstand me it was an amplifier, but if you compare old times with today, it was mainly due to the relics).

might be cuz of relics that, but in your case u still have gotten a few rr's since OF tho

Not sure what you are ona bout. CL5 gives 10% more HP/power.
heh yes you will be 2 shooted in OF with 1khp, same today.

1500/600 HP is buffed no? I dont see how you can have 1k hp with a wiz in OF fully buffed and with 200 hits and 75 con in template. Was it due to running in zerg unbuffed and now running in grouped buffed maybe? Game evolevs I guess

I ran with 1448 HP in OF on enchanter fully buffed.

I'll see if I can find some gimpy screeny that show my HP, but it seems like u are right it must be unbuffed hp, seems a bit low

 

[Stallion]

my m8's chanter account was closed so I couldn't check and there were no chanters around when I logged on the test it but I'm almost 100% sure it was -5% when I tested it..

I can assure you this..

Relics make u hit closer to the cap, not add dmg to the cap, but if u because of your % variance would hit for just below the cap with out the relics, then with the same % amount of variance u would hit the cap

Never been stated that relics adds to dmg cap. It raises your dmg within the cap. Dosent lower variance but it raises it to higher levels of damage.

And yes, so first you say; oh! you hit cap cause of debuff, I then prove to you that its cause of relics and not the debuff itelfs. And then you wanna make it have to do with 'variance' depending on my higher RR. Which never was the case since my RR from last of OF and first day of NF, my rr was the same, but the dmg wasent

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

debuffs do go below 0% and it happens quite a lot you get lots of + dmg tbh

Hence why i want to try 3-banelord 1-bg tank group with all legendaries (matter?) and a body sorc with the 50% debuff...Evul

 

[MxN]

NF in general focused on giving glasses MORE abilitites, which make less difference. In early NF people were still getting bombed like retards, i remember me and cant remember who, wasnt doma cus he was playing druid, but we bombed 116 albs on a bridge, and this was really using no abilities, it was very funny because at the time elcain was pming me to tell me how much mana spec sucked on eld, then he sees the deathblows and just goes ....................................

Ye i remeber that at start of NF

 

[Rhayn]

Gah, spent 3 years getting my arse handed to me, and now when I'm finally rr8+ you wanna nerf my RA's ... outrage! ()


Realize you didn't wanna discuss specific RA's, but ..

.. concerning MoC, yes I agree that 10 min RuT is a tad low really. And did those saying that it rarely turns a fight ever try fighting a pet heavy group with a support class ? Ok, maybe it doesn't turn the fight for me, but the point is that it allows me to actually fight back. Tried out DI instead for a few months, but respecced back a few days ago, and the fun factor as a healer is way higher with it on the qbar. Too bad the supp sm's went to Grey Havens or sumthing. (maybe looking for the savages?)


All in all, I'm pretty happy with things as they are. Speedwarps need a nerf imo. Not that it's OP really, it's just annoying that they're all over the place constantly. A mockery to the speed classes imo. Secondly I always found grapple a lame ability. But those are ML's. Don't have any grudge's on RA's really. (save charge perhaps, but then again I'm a healer. Evul BMs/vamps around these days)


On another note, I never did get the whole balance obsession. Who cares if some classes are more powerful than others. C'est la vie. Of course there should be a reasonable balance the realms between, but I'd really hate to see Mythic getting so fed up with balance whine that they decide to give all realms acces to the same stuff. (like remedy for instance) Looking back to OF, I did remember whining a lot about SoS and GP, but somehow it felt weird when suddenly we ourselves had acces to SoS. It kinda lost it's, hmm how can I put it .. mystique. In essence thats why I play this game. The plethora of classes and abilities it offers, and the immense amount of knowledge you have to aquire to perform your best. Like Stubbe says, it's not all about having all the tricks in the bag, but more about knowing when and how to use them.

 

[Rhayn]

Btw, I can see how some abilities can be spoilers in a 1v1 or 2v2 scenario. But that's not how I like to play the game. The neverending stealthwhine is falling on deaf ears here.

 

[Belomar]

I voted yes, I do think RAs play a large role in the game. I do believe their impact was larger than before NF, however. Before, a Healer would be finished at 7L6 and have all the useful actives he could get (RP, MoC, PR, Purge, basically). These days, you have to make choices, and you will essentially never be done (typically, even an RR11+ Healer has to choose between one or two of the actives lines such as BoF, MoC, and DI). What's more, you can get the needed RAs to compete even at RR6-RR7 for most classes.

 

[Z^^]

Well a player who have mcl and rp and power artifacts to a new leveled/geared guy will have less Power.. and that differance is huge imo, atleast viewed from the healer point of view.

 

[Bondoila]

Agreed, IP whas balanced in the days without MoS.

The wpn/con debuff pois is always there(no spec points), and it kinda screws over a player more then the ip, if you see to archer vs assasin situation. Removing the ip after the fz nerf would make the majority(not including bow speced *****) of all archers to stop playing.

 

[Rhana]

The RA's do have an important role and rightfully so. They are the reward for RvR and I see RvR as the endgame goal of the game so ofcoz they sould be important. That dosent make it fun to run into high rr players as a low one.. but that just meens you need more RvR, dosent it?

 

[Talivar]

Well i quit just before nf and without testing toa so i can compare since ive just come back.now the game seems to me just to be about timered abilities and not skil at all, he who has the most wins its as simple as that,theres some timing involved in when and what order to use your arsenal of abilities but thats it.
OF if 2 sb jumped me for example id focus fully on styles to win the fight and MAYBE purge and ip if they was up, nowadays ill base the fight on ip/purge and arts/ml and styles take a waaaaaaaaaaaaay back seat.
all in all IMO it sooks cus if my arts/ra down i know 100% i cant beat some1 no matter how skilled i play if they have just a couple of arts and ra up

 

[Alexandrinus]

and if you see this from the other side suddenly lower RR people have also a chance if the timer from the higher RR player is down.

 

[Doink-666]

not being funny but thats one of the most pointless and obvious polls I've seen, its not rocket science ffs

 

[Stallion]

not being funny but thats one of the most pointless and obvious polls I've seen, its not rocket science ffs

duh, kupo flux has spoken.. :kissit:

 

[Doink-666]

duh, kupo flux has spoken.. :kissit:

I care (---this much---)

 

[Dorimor1]

Do realm abilities play to big part of the game?

No shit.