Realm Abilities and their importance in DAoC?

[anioal]

ofc, they have great importance... to test it just /respec realm and play with a no arti / no champion weap template and see the difference.


that's also the reason most peeps zerg at lower ranks and when they reach rr7+ (or rr9/rr10 in some cases ) they became the master soloers

 

[Stallion]

I dont think RA's affect 8vs8 that much, or zerg vs zerg, at rr5ish you have the basics that youn need. In 1v1 if you pop MoC and lifetap you're probably going to win.

I have to disagree.

rr10 v rr5 is more then double the points to spend.

 

[Stallion]

ofc, they have great importance... to test it just /respec realm and play with a no arti / no champion weap template and see the difference.


that's also the reason most peeps zerg at lower ranks and when they reach rr7+ (or rr9/rr10 in some cases ) they became the master soloers

this could also be hand in hand with gaining experience more then the abilities you have at hand.

 

[Void959]

IMO they do influence the game too much in small scale fights - 1v1, 3v3, 4v7 etc, but are not *too* influencial in 8v8. I wish there was an easy workaround to lower their effectiveness in small fights but I really don't think it's possible.

On the other hand the active abilities make the game more interesting by giving more variety, and more for every player 'to do', I think without them the game would get stale very quickly.

 

[Eleasias]

I have to disagree.

rr10 v rr5 is more then double the points to spend.

Well then its just a difference in opinion, I've never liked active RA's that much anyway. Sure they make a difference but someone using a RA is not going to win you a fight, sometimes it even might lose you one, popping MoC and playing too offensively, getting yourself killed and losing the fight for your group. I dont think anyone has ever said passives are too overpowered though.

 

[Stallion]

Well then its just a difference in opinion, I've never liked active RA's that much anyway. Sure they make a difference but someone using a RA is not going to win you a fight, sometimes it even might lose you one, popping MoC and playing too offensively, getting yourself killed and losing the fight for your group. I dont think anyone has ever said passives are too overpowered though.

neither have I, played with moc3 for a longer time. Only actives I have now and ½ year back is purge1 and mcl1, and rr5. But having active RAs cant be combined with losing you the fight. Then its the player to blame, not the ability itself. heh.

EDIT: and saying that active RA's cant turn fg fights, thats strange to me, concidering you ran with me and vf (both with moc3) for 6 months and was used just for that purpose, turning fights.

 

[Eleasias]

neither have I, played with moc3 for a longer time. Only actives I have now and ½ year back is purge1 and mcl1, and rr5. But having active RAs cant be combined with losing you the fight. Then its the player to blame, not the ability itself. heh.

EDIT: and saying that active RA's cant turn fg fights, thats strange to me, concidering you ran with me and vf (both with moc3) for 6 months and was used just for that purpose, turning fights.

Yeah you both used MoC for a while and sure it turned fights once in a while but thats different to 1 guy using a RA. Anyway, both of you respecced out of it because it wasnt that needed anyway and when you ran full passives the fights never even got that far that they had to be turned. I'll turn the question around, did we ever have problem with MoCcing enemy casters when running our group? I don't think so.

And about blaming the player, yeah, that's my point. Some guy using a RA is not going to win you a fight using a RA in 8v8s/zerg vs zerg if he plays like crap, even good players do it once in a while, pop moc, get killed and lose you the fight.

 

[Matriarch|Sneakers]

I think that in OF the game were more of a domination game .. one group could kill a whole zerg if the zerg wassent that high RR etc and the group was ofcuz ..

Well that was b/c Nolby Pride simply was alot better then the random ppl running around in emain with their Avalonian parry paladins and roleplayed.

Maybe you like games where the people that suck is the ones who win ?

 

[hanza]

So in which way does a high RR have an advantage over and low RR, in the regard of tactics and game mechanics?

Do you mean that MLs and artifacts are meant to reduce the gap between high rr and low rr?

You seem to speak against yourself. Saying that RAs & ML/Artis make up the balance of high v low rr. And on the otherhand say that RAs play a bigger part of the game that artis/mls had to be introduced. Concidering atleast artifacts is more balanced then MLs & RAs, reducing the importance of RA's & ML's would balance the game more. And bring it back to what it once was about.

high RR ( to my understanding) = more /play so basically a better understanding of game mechanics and more strategically experianced


in my view Ml and arties reduce the gap as it gives u more tool and thus more chance to have the appropriate answer to a given situation (while in OF only RA's could give u this)

it s not contradictory, Ml/arties as explained before, do reduce the gap but dont close it. Ras will still make the difference.


and as i said for me RA's = Reward so at some points it has to play an important part. otherwise people would just get boared.

but i agree it would bring more challange to reduce their utility, would also bring some frustration for people fully dedicated to one specific character dont u think ?

 

[Stallion]

Yeah you both used MoC for a while and sure it turned fights once in a while but thats different to 1 guy using a RA. Anyway, both of you respecced out of it because it wasnt that needed anyway and when you ran full passives the fights never even got that far that they had to be turned

correct but this could have to do that we used and RA to cover up for poor play, its a fun tought to play with. Since thats the point somehow. RAs make up for something else (poor play). Vf and me improved communication and play and found moc excessive. I dont think RAs should be working that way. They do to a degree, but you have a valid point aswell.

 

[Elkie]

Ras dont exactly decide on who wins the fight, its how you work with your group in timeing when to use those ras/mls, things like moc never win you a fight partly why i have not been moc spec for well over a year, but its more affected on how you play your role in the group. Active ras never win you the fight they might help you get closer to winning but they are never going to actually win your the fight, things like TWF not going to win you the fight but gives you an oppertunity to win the fight, moc might help you win the fight by killing a charging tank who has banelorded you, things like st also can make a split second decission to pulling the fight into your favour, i personally think ras do share an importance to the game but one thing to remember is your not the only group who will have the available tools you could be facing a mid group with 2 moccing sms while you have a moccing eld and chanter in group for example pretty equal chance tbh.. you could have 2 twfs shared beetween the 2 groups, so if you think about it they wont make to much of a difference due to being able to counter these ras.

might be bunch of bolox what ive just said but owel

 

[Matriarch|Sneakers]

I'd say that defensive RA's is all good, but the offensive ones that washed over us with ToA, NF, Cata and DR we could probably do without and have alot better game play, tbh.

 

[Killswitch]

Seems like a bit of a non-question, at least at the most basic level. Leaving 'proper' RAs aside for now, an RR10 toon has a spec advantage over an RR5 in terms of lower variance, higher damage or 'better' spec (depending on class). The difference on a pure nuker might only be 2.5% (50+20 as opposed to 50+15 at about 0.5% per level iirc). Stealthers can have lower stealth/envenom and will therefore have higher weaponskill or defence (or both).

MLs are trivially available to everyone, so can be seen as 'balancing' in that regard, with the caveat that a Banelord tank (for example) will be a much better interrupter if he has Charge3/Det5/Purge3.

The changes to make RAs available to all realms (not including RR5 abilities ofc) has had very little impact on group setups as far as I can see. Most Alb groups still run without a minstrel, reaver or friar, even though SoS, TWF and ST are very powerful abilities in 8v8. That would suggest that RAs are less important in 8v8 than group setup (which is probably true). The spread of RAs has probably favoured some realms over others.

I suppose that there should be good rewards for high-RR players. Any dimwit can get toons to 50 and ML10 (I did) and can probably even muster the brainpower to arrange a template. However, it takes a certain kind of player (not always a good player, but determined and probably unemployed ) to get to RR12. There should be benefits to putting that effort in (from a commercial point of view if nothing else) to encourage players to put the time in and get those RPs.

I'd like to see the effects of RAs lowered somewhat. I also think that the RAs should be shifted to make them more defensive in general. What people want is longer fights and more tactics, so high PD, AoM, EM and maybe some escape RAs would do more good for the game than people with WP5 Dex5 MoM4 Acu4.

I think the worst thing about RAs in the current climate is the simple 'need' for them. I have to admit that my views in this area are biased somewhat due to jealousy however. I started playing the game pretty late on (just after SI hit iirc) so I missed the infancy of the game. As such, I've drifted from PvE guild to PvE guild, having to zerg for RPs and being unable to solo effectively because every man and his dog in RvR was RR7+ and in those situations, the RA imbalance hit me pretty hard.

It can be demoralising when you head to RvR in your super template with your ML10 stuff all ready to go with the perfectly researched spec and then get owned because the guy you meet has IP3 or PD5 or MoC3.

That said, Mythic will never balance the game (RAs included) for 1v1 or 8v8 and they certainly won't balance it for 8v8 as played by high-RR set groups on the English-speaking EU servers (which would be different to balancing RAs for PUG 8v8 on the Devon cluster in the US for example).

Lower the effects of all passive damage RAs by around 50%, leave the passive defensive ones as they are, cap all active RAs at their current level 2 and increase the timers to minimum 10 minutes.

 

[Alhanna]

Yes. I tend to aviod certain classes knowing they could have a certain RA. Also if I happen to bump into one of those I find that I lose more fights than I win and can always recall that they had used that certain RA which tipped the balance. The term I WIN button does really exist I think.

 

[Puppet]

Judging from a 1vs1 PoV, I can hardly think of anything more important then RA's. What 'frustrates' me is that alot of I-WIN RA's are on very short timers, especially the 'caster-ones'.

MOC is now 10 mins, too short IMO. Make it 20 mins. ML9 Pet aint a RA, but its also on a 10 mins timer, way too short. And the stupid imbalance ofcourse in RR5 RA's : Reaver have a PBAE lifedrain on 10 mins timer, Rangers have a ST 'stun' with disarm on a 15 mins timer... wtf?!

Especially MOC is something which Im very pissed off about. Nowadays you see people pop MOC3 + lafjtap the moment u jump them, giving you little to no chance. And when you return to him, he probably already has it back up.

 

[stubbe]

I've always said that "the good old days" is just a myth. The game was more fun back then, true, but it wasn't because of the games' mechanics. I enjoy the new system of MLs, RAs and artifacts since I'm a 8vX-player. More tools -> more choices -> more mistakes -> more skill.

There were actives back in the day as well, but on longer timers. Lower timers = less randomness, not more. A single moc could turn an entire fight around back then, that's a rarity these days.

In my opinion every turn daoc has taken to this day (with the exception of lousy terrain in NF) has improved it. Of course there have been some mistakes along the way (warlocks etc.) but show me a game that has evolved more from the day it was released and I'll be surprised. Mythic, for all their flaws, add gameplay aspects as opposed to what most other companies do, which is to simply add content.

Over and out.

 

[Infanity]

I have to admit, I prefer a 8 v zerg over an 8v8 unless the oposition is a really good long fight :}

 

[Bistrup666]

Imo this was not about RAs but about knowledge about the game. Most people back then that ran in zergs were (im sorry, but they were) very very clueless about what to do. Today the average player has gotten to know game mechanics and such. So I dont belive this because of RAs, (maybe partly) but not in the bigger picture.



The tools are on a timer, which makes it more random. It dosent seem random, it is random. Not because theres 'many' tools, but because they are on a reuse timer. Same with insta cc spells were in OF. (concidered by the majority as overpowered). I Dont agree with your point.

I agree with U on both points

First there ain't that much totally clueless ppl now and I also think the difference between the best part of the ppl and the worst is smaller than it was onece.

And I believe that ML and active RA's have a huge impact on the outcome of a battle. Try caster 1 vs 1 vs rr 5 menta just as an example, or the effect of purge up or down. Or for instance FZ up or down, U can't say that it doesn't have a very big impact on the outcome of the battle.

I don't have a quick fix but some should be nerfed while a nother solution could be nerfing em and lowering timer so they r not as powerfull but up more often.

Thats my imput for now

 

[Himse]

ofc, depends on how / when you use the RA's....

you can just hit all RA's and exepct to win, but some are a little op...

 

[Illtar]

it might add more randomness in what is up in different fights, although often you have something up if you templated etc yourself right...

but it also adds more skill and thought into how you play really, becuase there is more keys to push, and it needs to be at the right time.

Skill still plays the biggest role of anything in this game imo.

but ofc if you run rr1, untemplated, no master levels, you are going to lose unless the opponents are truely useless.

but really a rr4-5, templated group with good class selection and great temaplay will beat a rr9 PuG that doesnt have voicecom, and lacks a key class any day of the week..


I have soloed quite a bit on heretic, which atleast against melee classes is not a timer heavyclass, really unless i am very unlucky i always have some timers up, and they are ofc important (which i think is ok) becuase timers adds tactic into the game really, but ofc i can feel whether i fight a class with everything up or someone with something up or nothing up, but if you play good you can often win even though they dump everything and you have just about nothing up.

but in MY world, being skilled, atleast solo wise is also knowning how to make a template and RA selection that supports your play style. For instance i have almost no actives (purge 1), becuase i rather rely on passives..

and some thought can really negate the impact of timered abilities.

Like if they battler or malice /use2 on me, i just engage and laugh at them, or kite..

ofc there is some situations where you get into a fight where odds is so badly stacked that you arent going to win.. (etc i am not going to argue against that some concepts of the heretic is overpowered, Fx in a fight where i had 3 rangers and a NS on me, and it took IP, 2*FZ and a battler /use2 to kill me without any of them dieing, yes cleric heal proc IS silly on heretics, counted afterwards, about 20 procs for 172 heal, or 3400 hp returned)..

I kinda like the whole game of staying cold and using the right abilities through a 3-6 min fight vs some other solo speced shield class..

Full group the biggest extra skill aspect compared to solo, is having good temaplay..

but people saying solo is just some dump war IMO is by no means right..

So many classes have tools to their disposal that can turn a 1vs1 fight, but so many just stand they spamming reactionary backed up with anytime..

i have seen ONE player other than me use engage mid fight (there is prolly more out there though)

Imo engaging can be cheap, but against battler /use2 or other similar stuff i think its appropiate..

Engage can if you want to take it to the extremes basically win fights for you, engaging while the enemy is stun immune, is an amazingly powerfull abilitity, and i think its sometimes underused..

Ofc i have had people saying its boring, and have tried to moderate it in "fair" fights..

But when some vamps jumps you when you are on 25% and you just completely molest him is pretty funny..

When i soloed alot i saw so many players not weapon changing, not reapplying poison, not kiting to heal, not using engage, having weird templates with resists you dont need capped etc etc..

I am from what i have seen from other peoples performance assured that so many people dont use the tools they are given.

/rambling off

 

[pip]

Sure ra help loads feel free to give me all your points if you don't need Only prob I have found with so called ra is the fact the dam /respc on em have cost me loads ok QQ /Mythic plz listen to the Buddah, now with price of arti repairs ok might be coming down in price soon/Blah/Blah/Blah imo folk to/respec/skillz more cheaply...should be the way forward,say you play hunter low rr yay,There is no way, you can afford to keep your artis repaired

PS thx for hunter pets now they can dive again/respec/hug

 

[Danord_durin]

I've always said that "the good old days" is just a myth. The game was more fun back then, true, but it wasn't because of the games' mechanics. I enjoy the new system of MLs, RAs and artifacts since I'm a 8vX-player. More tools -> more choices -> more mistakes -> more skill.

There were actives back in the day as well, but on longer timers. Lower timers = less randomness, not more. A single moc could turn an entire fight around back then, that's a rarity these days.

In my opinion every turn daoc has taken to this day (with the exception of lousy terrain in NF) has improved it. Of course there have been some mistakes along the way (warlocks etc.) but show me a game that has evolved more from the day it was released and I'll be surprised. Mythic, for all their flaws, add gameplay aspects as opposed to what most other companies do, which is to simply add content.


Over and out.

Besides from meele lag and terrain and some well stupid rr5 abilities i agree 100%...

 

[Matriarch|Sneakers]

Judging from a 1vs1 PoV, I can hardly think of anything more important then RA's.
Especially MOC is something which Im very pissed off about. Nowadays you see people pop MOC3 + lafjtap the moment u jump them, giving you little to no chance. And when you return to him, he probably already has it back up.

Could't agree more, things like MoC is just plain grief in 1v1 enviroment on a 10 min timer, just plain retarded. Moc in OF was np since it took the person you killed like 20-30 mins to get back and even get a chance on facing you. But nowadays its just teleport back and go back to bridge and pop moc, rinse and repeat. :touch:

/edit One more exampel of RA's + mls etc fucking up the game is when a BG warrior used Testudo and then BGing a caster, how fkn fun is that in small scale rvr? Add then that if you try to chain interrupt the caster the can pop moc, qq


Then again NF have fucked up the game far more then anything else, imo.

 

[censi]

problem is though

The majority of new timers came from 3 places

a) artifact timers
b) ML line timers
c) rr5 timers

we already had RA's that were not too disimpler to what we have now.

heres the problem.

a) Artifact timers. It become too obvious too quickly which timers were must have and it just lead to 99% of the player base packing the same artis on there toons. All these timer diversity kind of got wasted because the OP artifacts were instantly identifed and used accross the board. I mean we have 95% of stealthers packing malice mainhand. U would think mythic would cotten on that maybe this artifact needs a nerf?

b) convoker bainlord etc... some real stupid timers here that pretty much fucked up the solo game (set ml9 pet and run etc)

c) massive disparity on rr5 timers. like take the theurgs rr5 HAHA FU, U LOOSE timers, and the reaver or the tics. compare it to what some other classes got and its like a tad fucking comical. dont see how they can give one class an insta AOE chain root and give another one like a summon bunch of flowers type thing.

 

[Eleasias]

Or comparing RR5 RA's that have the same function but their effectivness is just lightyears apart, like sorc RR5 and rm RR5

 

[Spetsnaz]

RA's are quite imortant in RvR (pretty much blanaced with some exeptions like TWF+banelord)

RR5 abilities, well some are just a joke some are i would say overpowered

ML's need some nerfing in most lines

 

[Jupiter]

ra's just need balancing, atm we have spec points per level according to class this shud b done for ra points as well... just compare abilites across the board and see how rr7 makes some classes very very powerful but others not so

 

[statued]

ye prime example is wen someone finished toa and mls on a New character and imeddiatly its ''goto get rps asap so i can get RAs to be balanced for fg rvr''

 

[Cloudz]

Imo this was not about RAs but about knowledge about the game. Most people back then that ran in zergs were (im sorry, but they were) very very clueless about what to do. Today the average player has gotten to know game mechanics and such. So I dont belive this because of RAs, (maybe partly) but not in the bigger picture..

Couldnt agree more, players were just very clueless and RA's obviously helped but think the main factor was the players

 

[-Freezingwiz-]

Yeah you both used MoC for a while and sure it turned fights once in a while but thats different to 1 guy using a RA. Anyway, both of you respecced out of it because it wasnt that needed anyway and when you ran full passives the fights never even got that far that they had to be turned. I'll turn the question around, did we ever have problem with MoCcing enemy casters when running our group? I don't think so.

well from a sorc point of view I have seen loads of fights change duo to MoC in the fights, even thos u have some annoying healer or bard or what ever spam interupting then pop moc u can change the fight around pretty fast then u can chain interupt all there support, that might be cuz some of the were stupid and didn't use something to counter it etc etc, but haveing all the support interupted just for a few secs make your grp able to kill some more pretty fast and then they are screwed, so I would still say that moc can change a fight from good to bad.

Moc demezzing is another good examble if u have some1 interupting u when u try to demezz, if u wouldn't be able to demezz the grp would be screwed if their purge was down