SPAM random annoying things

[DaGaffer]

what's the problem? English motorists being incompetent dicks?

Safer than Dutch motorists. Just sayin'.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Did you say she looked like Susan Boyle or someone?

That would explain it but it was a rather polite comparison, well, equally to what she said

 

[TdC]

Safer than Dutch motorists. Just sayin'.

I've never felt safe on a bike in the UK. Just sayin'

 

[Gwadien]

Its a silly idea, because London has a much much larger population than Amsterdam, and has more people rushing about trying to get A to B, all it will take is one guy that follows the rules of giving way to cyclists and the others using the old way of getting around a round-about quickly and hey presto, you've got a pile up, on a round about.

Why don't you merge the cycle path onto an actual pedestrian pathway, and then use traffic lights on a rota to get around the round about if you're wary of drivers?

It's difficult to change a mindset of such a vast amount of drivers, the issue is cyclists getting cut up by motorists, and I -really- don't see how this will change anything tbh.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

It just looks like to me that you're going to get more queued traffic stuck on the roundabout itself. Meaning horrific delays for all directions.

Woo.

 

[Billargh]

what's the problem? English motorists being incompetent dicks?

I imagine it to be like the smoking ban, being a 'law' but no one treating it as one.

 

[Gwadien]

£913m budget... Why don't they just make cyclist fly-overs?

Or let cyclists use the underground... trains have to give way, ofc.

 

[DaGaffer]

I've never felt safe on a bike in the UK. Just sayin'

That's got nothing to do with the qualities of motorists and everything to do with urban planning.

Its a silly idea, because London has a much much larger population than Amsterdam, and has more people rushing about trying to get A to B, all it will take is one guy that follows the rules of giving way to cyclists and the others using the old way of getting around a round-about quickly and hey presto, you've got a pile up, on a round about.

Why don't you merge the cycle path onto an actual pedestrian pathway, and then use traffic lights on a rota to get around the round about if you're wary of drivers?

It's difficult to change a mindset of such a vast amount of drivers, the issue is cyclists getting cut up by motorists, and I -really- don't see how this will change anything tbh.

It is possible to change behaviours (France switched the way roundabouts worked for instance), so I don't think that's an insurmountable issue; what I do think is that there are going to be very few roundabouts in urban areas in the UK where this approach will be possible. Its back to urban planning again; there's actually a reason why cyclists in the UK spend a lot more time sharing roadspace with motorists than they do in Holland, its not simply because planners are lazy fucks; its because bikes were integral to the thinking of Dutch urban planners in the 50s, 60s and 70s when a lot of the country was being rebuilt, so cycle spaces were designed in, from the get go. That wasn't the case in the UK, so now they have to graft bikes into roads not configured for them.

 

[TdC]

I'm sorry I don't understand. I've ridden bikes and driven cars in many corners of the world and more or less everywhere I've felt safe with both modes of transport. In the UK I felt extremely unsafe on a bike and that was even in a "bike friendly" city.

IMHO the main problem here is that UK road users have a firmly rooted culture of being inconsiderate dicks. I'm just back from Berlin, the second most densely populated city in the EU after London and with respect, the Germans have managed to cultivate an AWESOME bicycle culture within that city. In fact I would say they are absolutely cutting edge when it comes to both cycle and public transport safety. Complete awesomeness far surpassing any other EU city I have been to.

 

[Raven]

£913m budget... Why don't they just make cyclist fly-overs?

Or let cyclists use the underground... trains have to give way, ofc.

For that sort of money you could buy them all a car!

 

[Gwadien]

That's got nothing to do with the qualities of motorists and everything to do with urban planning.



It is possible to change behaviours (France switched the way roundabouts worked for instance), so I don't think that's an insurmountable issue; what I do think is that there are going to be very few roundabouts in urban areas in the UK where this approach will be possible. Its back to urban planning again; there's actually a reason why cyclists in the UK spend a lot more time sharing roadspace with motorists than they do in Holland, its not simply because planners are lazy fucks; its because bikes were integral to the thinking of Dutch urban planners in the 50s, 60s and 70s when a lot of the country was being rebuilt, so cycle spaces were designed in, from the get go. That wasn't the case in the UK, so now they have to graft bikes into roads not configured for them.

Heh, DAMN YOU Hitler, why you no flatten London?!

 

[TdC]

That's got nothing to do with the qualities of motorists and everything to do with urban planning.

yeah, I'm sure all the people who beeped their horns and deliberately pretended to swerve in to me were urban planners. sorry dude, I'll accept what you're saying but not the full 100%

 

[TdC]

don't get me wrong, I'm not a mouth-frothing full on militant cyclist with an eco-friendly hemp shirt. I own a very eco-unfriendly car as most of you know. I'm probably being a bit of a dick myself atm. I'd say this is probably because I'm just back from a possible biking Valhalla where people do indeed 'get it'.

 

[rynnor]

Heh, DAMN YOU Hitler, why you no flatten London?!

He did but it was the East End - the West End has the worst layout.

 

[Gwadien]

He did but it was the East End - the West End has the worst layout.

Suppose actual fighting in a city causes more damage, Berlin etc.

 

[TdC]

Berlin is actually still quite damaged. The amount of ordinance expended there boggles the mind tbh.

 

[rynnor]

don't get me wrong, I'm not a mouth-frothing full on militant cyclist with an eco-friendly hemp shirt. I own a very eco-unfriendly car as most of you know. I'm probably being a bit of a dick myself atm. I'd say this is probably because I'm just back from a possible biking Valhalla where people do indeed 'get it'.

The problem with London is theres no room in 90% of it to create special lanes for cycling so anything we do get will be rather token.

Theres no real way to convert London to a cycling city and because its the dynamo of the whole countries economy you cant mess with it too much without dire effects.

 

[Gwadien]

Just solo lifted all my College & School work into the attic in one box, I feel like an old man, my back kills

 

[TdC]

The problem with London is theres no room in 90% of it to create special lanes for cycling so anything we do get will be rather token.

Theres no real way to convert London to a cycling city and because its the dynamo of the whole countries economy you cant mess with it too much without dire effects.

I'm sorry I wasn't aware that bicycles didn't work on roads. Dude, srsly, read what you wrote. I'll go with Gaffer's urban planning up to a point. After that it's mentality, from both motorized and not.

 

[TdC]

both sides eh

 

[DaGaffer]

I'm sorry I don't understand. I've ridden bikes and driven cars in many corners of the world and more or less everywhere I've felt safe with both modes of transport. In the UK I felt extremely unsafe on a bike and that was even in a "bike friendly" city.

IMHO the main problem here is that UK road users have a firmly rooted culture of being inconsiderate dicks. I'm just back from Berlin, the second most densely populated city in the EU after London and with respect, the Germans have managed to cultivate an AWESOME bicycle culture within that city. In fact I would say they are absolutely cutting edge when it comes to both cycle and public transport safety. Complete awesomeness far surpassing any other EU city I have been to.

I genuinely don't think British drivers are particularly inconsiderate, and the safety stats would tend to back me up on that. As for your Berlin argument, I'd say that actually backs up my point; most of that City has had an extensive make-over in the last 20 years; its probably the most "modern" (from a planning POV) city in Europe, and not to piss on your chips but its population density isn't even close to London (and NB. London isn't the most densely populated city in Europe, Athens is). Berlin has about one-third the population of London and about 3/4 the population density, which makes quite a difference. For the record, Berlin has the 11th highest population density in Europe, and Leeds, Manchester and Birmingham are all higher, which goes to show why the problems for cyclists in the UK are structural, high density populations and shared, unplanned (for cyclists) roadspace.

 

[Billargh]

Most UK drivers simply see cyclists as a nuisance tbh.

 

[Raven]

That's because they usually are!

We have miles upon miles of very well maintained cycle lanes round Northampton, they never use them though because how then would they be able to hold traffic up, wobbling about all over the place or jump lights?

 

[rynnor]

I'm sorry I wasn't aware that bicycles didn't work on roads. Dude, srsly, read what you wrote. I'll go with Gaffer's urban planning up to a point. After that it's mentality, from both motorized and not.

I think one shapes the other to an extent - I was born in outer London and I avoid driving into the centre like the plague. It's an incredibly unpleasant and hostile place to drive not to mention some appalling road design plus its congested to hell in lots of key places.

People who have sat in a traffic jam for hours are not at their best and lots of them are trying to cut each other up - into this heady mix have been thrown in hapless cyclists - short of banning all traffic from central london which isnt going to happen theres nothing that will change things.

 

[TdC]

my bad, I agree I shouldn't have used density but population numbers of the inner city as a comparison factor. However, when you say "Berlin has about one-third the population of London and about 3/4 the population density" doesn't that mean that comparatively speaking the population density of Berlin is actually higher than London?

Here's a better point then: cyclists don't magically teleport themselves on to cycle paths; they ride there. On roads. Once there they interact with other people like pedestrians, other cyclists, cars, busses. Not all the time but it happens. So, cyclists are not on dedicated cycle paths all the time, and that works just fine. The perceived UK stance is that this is simply impossible which strongly implies that cyclists will never be accepted on the roads. Which to my mind makes the current road users (who underwrite that) a bunch of dicks.

 

[rynnor]

The perceived UK stance is that this is simply impossible which strongly implies that cyclists will never be accepted on the roads. Which to my mind makes the current road users (who underwrite that) a bunch of dicks.

I think your missing the larger picture - everyone in a city at rush hour acts like dicks - I see it everyday on public transport/pedestrians/cyclists/motorists everyone.

Its the psychology of big cities - its horrible but its just more noticeable in relation to cyclists because they die so regularly.

Edit - If you can cure that they will give you a Nobel prize.

 

[TdC]

I think one shapes the other to an extent - I was born in outer London and I avoid driving into the centre like the plague. It's an incredibly unpleasant and hostile place to drive not to mention some appalling road design plus its congested to hell in lots of key places.

People who have sat in a traffic jam for hours are not at their best and lots of them are trying to cut each other up - into this heady mix have been thrown in hapless cyclists - short of banning all traffic from central london which isnt going to happen theres nothing that will change things.

oh certainly. also, in such an aggressive environment a cyclist will either also become highly aggressive or be forced off the road. tbh people in highly aggressive, assertive mindsets shouldn't be jammed in to small spaces unless they are made aware that it can be done, and done well. A driver with the preordained conception that the cyclist is a nuisance and the cyclist with the equally horrible idea that the driver is out to kill him is a terrible mix. Still imo it can be done. I've seen it work.

 

[Gwadien]

Tom, give us TDC back ffs

 

[DaGaffer]

my bad, I agree I shouldn't have used density but population numbers of the inner city as a comparison factor. However, when you say "Berlin has about one-third the population of London and about 3/4 the population density" doesn't that mean that comparatively speaking the population density of Berlin is actually higher than London?

Er, no. Density is number of people per KMsq (its 3750 per KMsq in Berlin, 5100 in London). The variable you're missing is area.

Here's a better point then: cyclists don't magically teleport themselves on to cycle paths; they ride there. On roads. Once there they interact with other people like pedestrians, other cyclists, cars, busses. Not all the time but it happens. So, cyclists are not on dedicated cycle paths all the time, and that works just fine. The perceived UK stance is that this is simply impossible which strongly implies that cyclists will never be accepted on the roads. Which to my mind makes the current road users (who underwrite that) a bunch of dicks.

Yes they do, but if you've relieved the pressure by putting 50-60% of your cyclists onto road space away from motorists, the opportunities for conflict are reduced. Problem in the UK is simply the time spent interacting with other road users is much, much higher, so dickish behaviour is inevitable in both directions. And yet...UK still has one of the lowest accident and road death rates in the world. Go figure.

 

[Raven]

my bad, I agree I shouldn't have used density but population numbers of the inner city as a comparison factor. However, when you say "Berlin has about one-third the population of London and about 3/4 the population density" doesn't that mean that comparatively speaking the population density of Berlin is actually higher than London?

Here's a better point then: cyclists don't magically teleport themselves on to cycle paths; they ride there. On roads. Once there they interact with other people like pedestrians, other cyclists, cars, busses. Not all the time but it happens. So, cyclists are not on dedicated cycle paths all the time, and that works just fine. The perceived UK stance is that this is simply impossible which strongly implies that cyclists will never be accepted on the roads. Which to my mind makes the current road users (who underwrite that) a bunch of dicks.

The thing is that in the UK the majority of cyclists are utter bellends as well as the majority of drivers. As mentioned, we have miles upon miles of cycle lanes around here and it is actually quicker to cycle along them than to go on the road around where I work. They cut through more "as the crow flies" and you don't have to contend with articulated lorries. Some cyclists still insist on using the road though, not close to the side of the road so people can safely pass them but weaving all over the place so it is impossible to pass safely. None of them signal when turning or using roundabouts and most seem to have a deathwish (someone was sadly killed the other week because they just went straight on to a roundabout without looking)

I don't mind cyclists on the road so long as they follow the rules of the road, they are required to stop at traffic lights and if there is traffic coming from the right they should wait before trying to squeeze onto the outside of the roundabout. They will get themselves killed and some poor fucker will be the one hitting them.