Racism in DAoC and Forums

[Solid]

Damini a stranger player you didn't know said that? how did they know you were not white?

Anyway for best part of a year in DAoC I didnt mention my ethnic background and it was interesting some of the stuff thats been said as a joke or insult about my and other ethnic groups, quite funny when people realise that not everyone is like them and their jokes may well have offended people they considered buddies, pals, mates, guildmates, realm mates etc.

Irc is prolly the biggest example of this, the amount of obviously racist jokes I see daily is ridiculous, tho most are said jestingly, they can and will easily be taken as offensive by people they are aimed/at the expense of.

 

[Damini]

Damini Jaya is an Indian name, so they just assumed.

 

[Teh Krypt]

Originally posted by Damini
Damini Jaya is an Indian name, so they just assumed.

how would they know without being indian theirself?
I would asume Damini is a randomly created name like Krypt and 99% of other daoc names

 

[Solid]

ignorant eejuts tho, I remember Eastenders YEARS ago when that indian couple ran the corner shop (omg yet more stereotyping) and some racists called em Paki's.

Pakistan being a Muslim state its quite funny how anyone from the Indian subcontinent was and often still is called a Paki.

/shrug

 

[Solid]

Krypt you assume cos you less informed than the average person in the UK.

Damini is an Indian name and there are even shops called Damini's (very nice Indian clothes from there )

Jaya is also an Indian name.

I know you live in Blackburn Krypt, but surely even Blackburn has some Ethnic diversity? surely your school isn't homogenous and, even if you don't HAVE any friends from the ethnic groups, you must KNOW some at ur school?

 

[Teh Krypt]

Originally posted by Solid
Krypt you assume cos you less informed than the average person in the UK.

Damini is an Indian name and there are even shops called Damini's (very nice Indian clothes from there )

Jaya is also an Indian name.

I know you live in Blackburn Krypt, but surely even Blackburn has some Ethnic diversity? surely your school isn't homogenous and, even if you don't HAVE any friends from the ethnic groups, you must KNOW some at ur school?

None called Damini, and yes Blackburn is. During the industrial revolution many people came over to work in the mills in my town and many towns in the northwest of England.

 

[Teh Krypt]

Originally posted by Damini
Krypt, Cadire moved the posts so you couldn't hijack a mature and interesting thread with your squabbling. Have the maturity to stop kicking a dead donkey and leave it alone, instead of dancing around like a spoilt child and using this opportunity to say "HAHA THIS PROVES I AM RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG".

Just to clear this up. I am not racist. Cadire totaly misunderstood what I said and continued to go on about it.

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

Originally posted by fenrisan
A very well intentioned post, but I sometimes wonder if you think too hard about this game Roo. Unfortunately racism exists in this world, and whilst many of us are disgusted by the fact, it remains a fact.

Not about the game but about the way people interact socially in general, that I do think about a lot.

The game itself is fairly trivial. People are not and I don't believe should ever be treated as such. Ok, thats pretty much stating the obvious.

I'm not so naive to think anything written on these forums will change the world, but sticking your head in the sand and ignoring something definately isn't the way to go about it.

I take the above quote and the rest of your post onboard, though people don't always leave their baggage in the real world so in-game and on these forums you have to deal with it.

 

[old.job]

As much as I hate to admit it , I'm a racist, I would be much less comfortable if a Black/Asian/Muslim family moved in next door than a standard 'white' family.

It isn't really racism, most people are racist, they are 'culturist'.

Your colour/race is just a handy way of making a rough guess of your culture.

White people are scared that other peoples culture will be different enough to theirs to threaten their own, or they will have pastimes that they find offensive.

But of course I would be concerned if a family of Gypsies/Skinheads/Druggies moved in as well, white or not.

What are my concerns?

1st: That in no time the whole road will become full of their fellow countrymen, and that I will then be in the minority.
2nd:My house price will drop, because other peoples perception will be that the road is going downhill.
3rd: They may have different ideas about social interaction from what I am comfortable with, these subtle social interactions are the glue that holds a society together, any slight change can have major effects.

The above comments may seem ridiculous to people who think they aren't racist, but these thoughts are shared by the vast majority of white people ,wether they admit it or not.

Individuals will have vastly different experiences, but the big picture is that this is one of the most emotive and potentially destructive subjects facing us today.

We attacked Iraq because we are racist towards it's people, we think they are less capable than us and less civilised, so we decided to sort it out for them, without asking and with little concern for the death and misery it would cause.
(They are only Arabs after all )
Now the war is over, how many stories do you hear of the pain/misery/death/mutilation we rained down on these people?

Seen a whip-round in your local, to buy an Iraqi a new false limb, or skin graphs for his mutilated children?

No, they are forgotten allready.

 

[old.linnet]

Originally posted by old.job


White people are scared that other peoples culture will be different enough to theirs to threaten their own, or they will have pastimes that they find offensive.

I think all people are naturally prejudiced towards their own culture, and away from anything that seems alien to it. BUT we can try not to be. Overt racism or sexism makes me very uncomfortable and when it is from people I know, I ask them to stop.

3 generations ago, my family came to the UK as refugees and they were allowed in. Some of them tried to be 'more English than the English' and some of them tried to hang on to their own culture. But all of us descendents pay our taxes etc, so I like to think we gave back more than we took out.

But we could also focus on more positive sides of the game. Frex, I've been in guilds where we have brits, swedes, finns, danes, dutch, germans, israelis, italians ... and even (whisper it) welsh players. I've played on a french server as much as my crappy french will allow (all my french I learned from translating In Nomine with the help of a slang dictionary, so it's a bit slanted toward odd ecclesiastical terms ) I've no idea what colour skin any of them had, and I can only guess at their real genders. We got on fine, and had a lot of fun, because we have a lot more in common than we do differences. And I bet that is true for almost every guild on the UK servers.

So that's good

 

[Solid]

Originally posted by old.job
It isn't really racism, most people are racist, they are 'culturist'.

Your colour/race is just a handy way of making a rough guess of your culture.

White people are scared that other peoples culture will be different enough to theirs to threaten their own, or they will have pastimes that they find offensive.

Job sorry to say your naievety is astounding regarding what you classify as "culturist" is actually the most fundamental form of racisim.

Who gave you all knowing knowledge to classify all white people as racists or "culturists"? not everyone thinks as you do so dont pidgeon hole them or try hide behind the masses.

Originally posted by old.job
1st: That in no time the whole road will become full of their fellow countrymen, and that I will then be in the minority.
2nd:My house price will drop, because other peoples perception will be that the road is going downhill.
3rd: They may have different ideas about social interaction from what I am comfortable with, these subtle social interactions are the glue that holds a society together, any slight change can have major effects.

I am not white, both my neighbours are, my second neighbour is also not white, infact my road has a good mix of all types of people from all cultures and races.

Has that effected the value of the houses? rofl not a chance, wtf do you get your information about house prices going down because a non white family moves in next door?

if you're more of a "culturist" explain again WHY you would be uncomfortable? take it down to a basic reason, no wishy washy pseudo excuses.

Using the "i would feel my culture is threatened" is pathetic imo, your trying to justify it by claiming its stemmed from fears for yourself and your weakness.

Your essentially judging a book by its cover, whats worse do you even KNOW anything about Black/Asian/Muslim culture (you went from skin colour, to geographical region to religion in your attempt to describe an ethnic group which in itself speaks volumes of your knowledge).

I would be interested to know where you live, and what the racial mix is like in your area, Krypt has already admitted he lives in a highly homogenous region of the UK and his lack of knowledge is testament to that.

and we didn't attack Iraq cos we are racist, it was mostly political and natural resource/financial based decision spearheaded by the US.

A country is not a RACE, its a REGION. If we attacked Iraq for racial reasons why have we not then attacked ALL arab states?

 

[old.job]

Your essentially judging a book by its cover, whats worse do you even KNOW anything about Black/Asian/Muslim culture (you went from skin colour, to geographical region to religion in your attempt to describe an ethnic group which in itself speaks volumes of your knowledge).

Oh please, I was just using the most common descriptions for people from theses areas.

Dont counter an argument with a pedantic analysis of the wording

And as for judging a book by it's cover, you may find these opinions insulting, but I am merely admitting my own prejudice and explaining how many whites feel the same, but can't even admit to themselves.

In many ways an outright neo-nazi racist is safer...you know where he is, you know what he thinks, and he is a joke.

It's the slow creep of nationalism/racism that is built into the vast majority of white Europeans that is the danger.

 

[eynar]

Can't say I completely agree with you here....cuz racism isn't a strictly defined area imo. I mean, in your opinion a statement or anything else may be racist, while it isn't in someone else's opinion. I also noticed lately that over here in Belgium people are very likely to call you a racist when you get into the slightest disagreement on something with an immigrant. And let's face it, those kind of things aren't racist at all, cuz I don't agree with someone doesn't automatically mean I disrespect that person too.
Ofcourse I agree with you on the core of the issue, but on the other hand I see no harm in joking with people's country for example. The Dutch and the Belgians do it all the time, and they don't hate eachother either. Personally these things don't offend me, and I can hardly imagine anyone else is offended by them...

 

[old.linnet]

Originally posted by old.job

In many ways an outright neo-nazi racist is safer...you know where he is, you know what he thinks, and he is a joke.

Not much of a joke when they send you death threats (yes, have had that when I was an undergrad).

This is a serious point btw. Never think of these people as a joke. Because it's when more moderate people ignore them that they get into positions of power (ie. councillors in local govt and from there on upwards).

Some of their views are not so different from the mainstream right-wing. Some of them are some of us. This doesn't mean all right-wingers are racists, or that everyone who opposes free immigration is a racist -- but it does mean that it's easy to get seduced into thinking that because you agree with a few of their positions, you also agree with the (madder) rest.

 

[old.LandShark]

Originally posted by Solid
ignorant eejuts tho, I remember Eastenders YEARS ago when that indian couple ran the corner shop (omg yet more stereotyping) and some racists called em Paki's.

Pakistan being a Muslim state its quite funny how anyone from the Indian subcontinent was and often still is called a Paki.

/shrug

Ignorance is a prerequisite of racism, these days.

Originally posted by old.job
It's the slow creep of nationalism/racism that is built into the vast majority of white Europeans that is the danger.

As to that, it's true that your average homo sapiens is a territorial animal, even if it's a territorial attitude towards his tribes' land. After all, racism is hardly the exclusive hatred of ethnic groups - western europeans tend to get the cold shoulder in England, almost as much as typical immigrant minority groups. (on a side note, ethnic families who have been here 20 years get as much trouble as real 2-months' residency immigrants... inherently racist people just jump on the "they take our jobs <etc>" excuse.

The reason racism still happens is that humans are instinctively hostile to those outside their community, regardless of the scale of that community - from a school playground clique to the ethnic majority of an entire country.
This means that rather than, in the course of a child's upbringing, something having to happen to make them racist, it's the inverse; something will probably have to happen to STOP them being racist. Whether it be experiencing prejudice or bullying first-hand (I wore glasses, had a very obviously non-english name and to top it off, until the age of about 7 I had a speech disorder preventing me from knowing which of my two languages i was actually speaking at the time - needless to say I got a little aggro), or perhaps reading decent literature where they might see racism and prejudice villified, or maybe even just being naturally reasonable and having access to a good and unbiased education.
Being sceptical about it, I'd have to say that the root of racism is too close to our primitive subconscious impulses, to ever be banished from society. The most we can do is put our own jawbones down first. (I think I just paraphrased!)

 

[towell]

Most people who have grown up in a different place have a different outlook on the world and different personalities.
It is not about genes or about skin colour its more about conditioning and the way you're brought up.
If a W.A.S.P child was taken to Pakistan or Indonesia and fully accepted into an extremist muslim culture. (I don't mean that these countries are extremist muslim countries more that these cultures are more likely to exist in these countries) Then he/she would probably hate all that his "race" (culture) stood for.
If you are conditioned from the day you are born to believe that a certain thing is right or wrong then that will be what you believe for the rest of your life.
So some people from different cultures and geographical areas have outlooks on life and preconceptions about other people built into their minds from the day they are born and these preconceptions and cultural differences clash.
Although physical evolution of the human genome is very slow, a kind of mental evolution is taking place across the world and people who are spread out geographically are very different mentally.
In my opinion this is where racism comes from. Certain mental differences are displayed by certain people who have lived in different places, and skin colour or physical differences can be a marker for this, although we are all the same biologically we are very different, and the groups of people who are all the same group together in their own communities and do not integrate and evolve on the social level. People fear the unknown and because they do not get to know these different people they base their feelings towards them on what they've heard not what they know.
If people based their arguements and feelings on what they had actually experienced and done then the world would be a much better place because fundamentally humans only want to do the "right" thing.

wow that wasted some time i'm so bored.

 

[SilverHood]

not our fault that a group of people from the same country act likes tits in game, and then come on here and acts like tits too.

bit like the koreans in Diablo, eh

stereotyping is wrong, but there is some truth to it most of the time

and since when was calling someone a paki being racist?
They call themselves that where I live

 

[Teh Krypt]

Aparently its racist to call someone a pakistani, even tho thats what people are, its not racist to call someone english..

 

[SilverHood]

its about whats ethically and morally right... ie in the states...
can't call 'em blacks
can't call 'em negros
can't call 'em coloured
they're african american

still not sure what someone who is dark and from the caribean is called

 

[Solid]

Originally posted by SilverHood
and since when was calling someone a paki being racist?
They call themselves that where I live

Erm SilverHood try reading whats written before jumping the gun eh.

Damini is HINDU INDIAN I believe, she was called a Paki (that being used as a form of racial insult that is all too well known in England at least).

You need to understand the subtext that it comes with.

Since I was a kid I have had to put up with being called a Paki as a form of racial hatred by many white kids at school and the community, it was the #1 racial insult used back in the 80's against anyone from the Indian subcontinent and still exists today although a lot of people are now a little better informed.

Ignorant racists will use the word as an insult, most informed people realise a Pakistani is someone from Pakistan and Pakistan is one country of many in the Indian subcontinent. People have slowly understood that everyone with brown skin is not Pakistani and the insult therefore holds little value now.

An asian being called a Paki is probably on par with a black person being called a Ni**er, thats the context its used in by racists and yes it is an insult.

Its not very imaginative but then again racists ar not usually the sharpest tools in the box to begin with.

We live and we learn

 

[minime_]

People from Spain zerg

 

[rynnor]

What is a race? Its actually pretty hard to define - legally speaking under the Race relations act its defined by 'colour, race or National Identity'. (incidentally whoever drafted that and used the word race in defining race - doh! - its like looking up spam in the dictionary to find its defined as spam .

This was later extended to cover the Sikhs who werent really a defined racial group in terms of the act - i.e. no common country/language etc.

However other religions are not covered so please feel free to insult the Scientologists

I actually think communities like DAOC are great bastions of inter-racial mixing and hold great promise for the future - the only barrier left is language so can someone please create a real time translator!

I have no idea what 'racial group' most of my friends in daoc are from and I really dont care because its irrelevant!

I have played on the french servers and found the community just as friendly (and they tolerated my extremely rusty french as well).

The most disturbing trend at the moment is the big sensation over refugees - the media have really fed this one but I cant help but see disturbing paralels to the rise of Hitler in the 30's - it wouldnt surprise me to see the government proposing internment camps for refugess next

It would be nice to think that everyone is sensible and wont be fooled by such things but the BNP (a name I find personally offensive as a brit!) actually managed to get a few councillors just up the road from me - and this on the edge of London...

 

[Jenkz]

Originally posted by SilverHood
still not sure what someone who is dark and from the caribean is called

afro-carbbiean

 

[Addlcove]

Originally posted by SilverHood
still not sure what someone who is dark and from the caribean is called

jamaican man, no matter where they really are from man

maybe they call them "central-americans" ??? ;p

 

[Rubric]

Originally posted by Jenkz
afro-carbbiean

Is afro some reference to hair?

 

[Driwen]

someone from caribean is still from africa? Some black coloured person came from africa to the caribean and then to the states (atleast usually). So why call black coloured people from caribean actually different, as their origine is the same. But instead of going to the states they staid on the caribeans? But they prolly have a different name than afro american though .

And afro is a reference to coming from africa. Original population in all off the continent america have been American Indians(sp?). So every black coloured person has his origin from Africa as far as I know. So it reflects on their skin colour kinda, but more preciser where their ancestors came from.

The only thing about racism which i find irritating is that calling a dutchie cheese head is ok, but afro american black isnt. I wont attack back, I just find it irritating that there is this difference.

 

[Ottar]

> I actually think communities like DAOC are great bastions of inter-racial mixing

Yup! And how is this wonderous thing achieved? By only means known to mankind since the dawn of ages - by uniting people against the common enemy!

In DAoC it doesnt matter if yer comrade is a hindu or a catholic. Unless he also happens to be an alb, hib or mid from opposing realm. Remarks and predjudices against other realms both in-game and on various forums are practically indistingaishable from what Ive read people saying here about yankees or frenchies. Go to vnboards and what you see there is like BBC News talkshow with jewish and palestinian politicians against erachother

The concept of realm versus realm war was a bloody brilliant one. And no matter what we have to say about the game, in a sense it has succeeded beyond expectations - Mythic has created their very own virtual middle-east conflict

Ottar

 

[old.Emma]

Cant say im not racist because in some ways i am, most people are in one form or another.

Im english, my dad is american, my brother is south african, my aunt is german and one of my cousins is australian. So our family has a large variety of ethnic groups.

In saying that though to actions of one person/several people can affect your judgement on there race. Like the spanish i have had several encounters with spanish players that are nice, and even more encounters with players that are not nice. There for making me dislike the country. I have nothing against the players i know and like in the game, but there are alot of players i hate, and its because of those players i frown at a large majority of spanish players without even considering the option of actually getting to know them.

The colour of a person makes no difference at all to me i grew up around a large number of people that were not the same colour as me and they were great friends, its more the actions of a person that can determine your judgement on there country/race.

 

[Falcon]

Lurikeens always seem to pick on me because I'm an Elf, is that racism?

 

[Rubric]

Originally posted by old.Emma
Cant say im not racist because in some ways i am, most people are in one form or another.

Im english, my dad is american, my brother is south african, my aunt is german and one of my cousins is australian. So our family has a large variety of ethnic groups.

In saying that though to actions of one person/several people can affect your judgement on there race. Like the spanish i have had several encounters with spanish players that are nice, and even more encounters with players that are not nice. There for making me dislike the country. I have nothing against the players i know and like in the game, but there are alot of players i hate, and its because of those players i frown at a large majority of spanish players without even considering the option of actually getting to know them.

The colour of a person makes no difference at all to me i grew up around a large number of people that were not the same colour as me and they were great friends, its more the actions of a person that can determine your judgement on there country/race.

I have met a large proportion of English players who are not nice in game.

I am English should i hate myself & the rest of my countrymen?