Quite ridiculous to be honest

[Bugz]

You're comparing an inanimate object to an animal. Animals feel pain. Balls (you know what i mean ) dont.

Do even you understand what the hell you're talking about? I mean do i really need to explain to you that even though pain is a warning signal its still wrong to cause it to a living being?

I'm with Gorbachioo on this one.

Where does the comparison lie with a ball and a pig?

Balls do not even have warnings in place, as you so cautiously call 'pain.'

Even if you call pain a warning, humans have it, pigs have it, balls do not have it.

If you roll a ball down a hill, a ball cannot stop if a rock hits it, but a pig or human can (or can certainly try).

Very odd arguement you are trying to develop there Golena.

 

[Golena]

Where does the comparison lie with a ball and a pig?

Ok so a ball was probably a bad example. The point is a ball is a lump of matter that reacts to forces i.e. gravity. The pig is a lump of matter that reacts to forces. It has more sensors than the ball and we call it alive, but what makes it alive. I'm fairly sure only religion has told us the answer to that and science hasn't.

A better example would be a pig and a computer.
You stab a pig and it squeals and runs away.
You move the mouse on your computer and the curser on the screen moves.

Now both happen because an electrical impulse goes from the mouse (pigs nerve ending) to the computer chip (pigs brain) and the cursor on the screen moves (pig runs off).
Now where's the science that says the pigs brain is actually different from your intel chip. That there's more than simply a processing of the information and the corresponding reaction (i.e. the human idea of pain that's bad). We can observe that the pig reacts to being stabbed in a way we associate with pain, but that's it. If I made the computer squeal and run off if I hit it on a pressure pad would you also say that hitting the pressure pad on the computer was a bad thing to do because it felt pain?

 

[Bugz]

Everything is made of matter - ofcourse it is - but what are you deducing from that?

A pig is SO MUCH DIFFERENCE from a ball- MRS NERG ring any bells?

You are saying that everything can be related to one another because they are composed of the same fundamental matter.

BUT what you don't seem to realise is that a computer will never squeal because it doesn't apply the rules of MRS NERG (or whatever the other names are), which define a living organism.

Living organisms have receptors which allow it to respond AS a living organism.

A computer DOES NOT respond AS a living organism.

 

[Golena]

Everything is made of matter - ofcourse it is - but what are you deducing from that?

A pig is SO MUCH DIFFERENCE from a ball- MRS NERG ring any bells?

You are saying that everything can be related to one another because they are composed of the same fundamental matter.

BUT what you don't seem to realise is that a computer will never squeal because it doesn't apply the rules of MRS NERG (or whatever the other names are), which define a living organism.

Living organisms have receptors which allow it to respond AS a living organism.

A computer DOES NOT respond AS a living organism.

That allows us to determine what we class as living and what we don't class as living by looking at it's properties.

That hardly answers the question asked now does it. It's like me asking you why something appears to be red and instead of talking about lightwaves reflecting off it, holding up a colour chart and saying look it matches the thing that says red here!!

 

[old.Tohtori]

I think there's a hidden meaning there, if not, i'm bringing it:

Hurting is a scientific evolution failsafe on creatures. Hurt = don't do/avoid.
Not wanting to hurt is not. Not wanting to hurt is a moral, and those morals have come from...suprise...religion

Before religion, we didn't have any problem with kiddie playing, killing, etc.

And no, i'm not arguing to argue, i'm telling what i feel and defending if i feel my position is right.

I've never once said on this thread, i hope, that Gorbs point of view is wrong or that others shouldn't hold those views.

 

[Bugz]

Nah, sorry guys but I just don't see it.

I'll leave you guys to argue your differences anyway.

My head hurts and I'm off to bed!

 

[kiliarien]

I've read this whole thing, and it's been fascinating (yes, I had a spare hpur!). Although the discussion has been heated, I at least have enjoyed the fact that people have been had points to make, for the most part have made them eloquently and with feeling. I have little to add other than:

Thing is, we do the same, just that we "evolved" from the crusader purifications to "laws".

That's what i meant by our society being sculpted by religion too.

Christianity brought the "thou shalt not kill" rule.

For example, in viking law, murder(kill someone whos asleep etc) was a nono, you'd get banished from the lands, but killing someone was ok if it was a fair fight and declared.

Erm, not taken into context, the Pope at the time didn't expect at the Council of Clermont that he would whip people into such a frenzy that the Crusades created - he was essentailly making a rousing religious speech to gain popularity and then he (and all subsequent Popes) had to follow through with their blessing. That dark time (oh yes, all several hundred years of it) did not necessarily affect the laws of nations.

That point aside, BloodOmen is the only one to even summise parts of the Qur'an. I don't know if anyone else has ever read it translated into my native language (english) which I know can't be a true translation but I did (just as I have read the Bible, Torah and some Hindu scriptures). There is very little about the oppression of womens' rights - in fact, in the home the man is pretty much nothing in comparison. He gets bitch slapped. The legal system is at fault, not religion. Sharia law has far too many subtexts to it, just as any legal system.

I'm an agnostic before you ask, so I don't beat down religion - in fact I've seen it do some pretty amazing things for a lot of people. For me, and I stress, just me, I find this poor lad's plight harsh and unjustified. It does for make me think of Martin Luther King and those who feel the rules in their nation need to change, although in this case I don't think Kambaksh is attempting to lead some moral crusade (pardon the pun).

What should be at the forefront is the fact that he *might* have been tortured and his trial was so short. It might be their system, but I for one would like to see a longer or fairer process if indeed this one wasn't fair.

That video clip does send chills down my spine, the scholar Baleegh says: "When the infidel attacks you or invades your land, you should behead them, hold them hostage, intensify the war and break their morale." And he's allowed to say that on national TV?

What war? That for me is worrying. There are so many wanker Muslims giving the rest of Islam a bad name. And that's the point that upsets me.

 

[aika]

Revealed: UK’s first official sharia courts - Times Online


hf!

 

[kiliarien]

Now that is total BULLSHIT. One set of laws for one country. It should stay that way. This is a joke, no matter how they set it up - it's encouraging to note that both sides have to agree to the tribunals having power. That said, if you're a 'good muslim' you would stay with the rules of your people so it could be catch-22 in that case.

I can't believe it, utterly baffling. Toh - you noted that what goes on in another country is their right to judge on their laws but this is the first step in a worrying direction. Quash this bad boy imo.

 

[tierk]

......One set of laws for one country. It should stay that way........

Just to point out that the current situation is not a new one and has been in place for more then 100 years.....

Jewish Beth Din courts operate under the same provision in the Arbitration Act and resolve civil cases, ranging from divorce to business disputes. They have existed in Britain for more than 100 years, and previously operated under a precursor to the act.

Its only now an issue because it is also being applied to Muslims.

 

[BloodOmen]

Just to point out that the current situation is not a new one and has been in place for more then 100 years.....



Its only now an issue because it is also being applied to Muslims.

Still waiting for this "endless" list of positive things islam has contributed to the world tierk

 

[kiliarien]

Just to point out that the current situation is not a new one and has been in place for more then 100 years.....

Its only now an issue because it is also being applied to Muslims.

Sorry tierk, no - I disagree with the whole lot, including the Jewish rules. I have lots of Islamic friends, so that is irrelevant and I don't think I can be considered anti-Muslim and I resent the implication that I was saying that.

One country should be one rule. Else you start getting into the idea of 'why can't there be regional laws?' etc. like the state/federal US system which is a farce and it costs them a LOT of money transferring and implementing different state systems. What's next? Kill someone in London and it's the death penalty. Do it in Bradford and it's just life or vice versa. It's an extreme example I know as this is just an issue of arbitration (though with more heft than normal arbitration) but it's the first step.

 

[tierk]

Sorry tierk, no - I disagree with the whole lot, including the Jewish rules. I have lots of Islamic friends, so that is irrelevant and I don't think I can be considered anti-Muslim and I resent the implication that I was saying that........

Sorry if it seems i am implying you are being anti-muslim or any such thing, but it is not what i am saying at all. I know from reading many posts that you have made on this foru that you are actually one of the few people on here that is able to partake in a discussion.

What i mean is that it seems the media are creating a big issue out of something that in reality has been around for a 100+ years. Why was it a none issue before and now suddenly it is seen as an attack on the courts and the way of life in Britain?

One country should be one rule....

We have this system in place already for over 100 years. Sorry if i keep saying this but why was it not an issue before and now it is? What has changed in the 100 years that we have had Beth Din courts?? Has the country been overrun with Jewish Laws? Are the shops closed to respect Sabbath? Name me one thing that has affected anyone in anyway by having these courts except the people they were designed to cater to?

Else you start getting into the idea of 'why can't there be regional laws?' etc. like the state/federal US system which is a farce and it costs them a LOT of money transferring and implementing different state systems.......

I think you are mixing things up here. The sharia courts, from what i have understood of it so far, is not something that will in anyway overide the "regular" courts and are only to be used when both parties are happy to accept the outcome. It is not there as a way out for Muslims to avoid going to regular courts. From all the stuff i have read on the matter it seems to be for all intents and purposes to be a Islamic version of ACAS.

What's next? Kill someone in London and it's the death penalty. Do it in Bradford and it's just life or vice versa. It's an extreme example I know as this is just an issue of arbitration.....

I think we both know that this is not a likely turn out and is an extreme example as you rightly point out. Do we have one system sentencing in Golders Green or Hatton Gardens to say in Liverpool?

but it's the first step.

First step to what, the Islamic Republic of England?? Get for real mate if this is what you are really concerned about, is this where they see things going?

Facts of the matter are that we have over 3 million Muslims living in the Uk, a sizeable community. They are not living in Afghanistan or some such country but in a country that respects the individuals rights and freedoms, regardless of race, colour or religion.

Attention of Bloodomen...

Go read about Science, Dark Ages, Rights of Women, Algebra, Avicenna amongest other things.

I have the feeling that regardless of what you read or find out it wont affect the way that you think about me in general or about the religion that choose to follow (albiet not too strictly).

 

[aika]

tierk all that was pretty long ago, during the good age, or age of enlightment of the Islam, is seems that since the fall of the Ottoman Empire, they have pretty much fallen into a dark age of Inquisitory zealots. Thats just the impression I get, correct me if I'm wrong.

also jewish laws are nowhere near as strict as Islam ones, at least thats the impression most people get, probably thats why the panic. I mean you cant even draw and many things are punishable by death.

That really scares people.

 

[Uara]

yeah, in reference to the Jewish arbitration that goes on in their religious courts, they can get away with it because their laws are very similar to the westernised legal system that we run with in this country. hence why it can essentially run under the radar. I'm not a fan of multiple religious legal systems but as long as it works hand in hand with our own basis of law and order, and submits to our laws then theirs nothing wrong with it as it still follows the legal precedent.

The problem being with Sharia is that at its basis it is vastly different from our legal system and that is where the problem lies. People in England have no precedent to set it against and so see it as a threat to our law and order, especially as Sharia law can be very very strict on some aspects of law and it is most definitely not the most equal of legal systems.

 

[BloodOmen]

tierk all that was pretty long ago, during the good age, or age of enlightment of the Islam, is seems that since the fall of the Ottoman Empire, they have pretty much fallen into a dark age of Inquisitory zealots. Thats just the impression I get, correct me if I'm wrong.

also jewish laws are nowhere near as strict as Islam ones, at least thats the impression most people get, probably thats why the panic. I mean you cant even draw and many things are punishable by death.

That really scares people.

Aye, its quite sad that people choose to blindly follow such a piss poor religion like that.

Really silly things you can be killed for... you can even be killing for missing prayers no matter what the reason was.

Self hatred and bitter ignorance will always prevent islam from moving forward.. it will be eternally trapped in a dark and evil age filled with murderous wretches, rapists and all out violent scum.

Done with the thread now, really can't be arsed trying to state the obvious which everyone seems to ignore and mistake islam for a rosey dosey lovely religion what it isn't.

 

[tierk]

Aye, its quite sad that people choose to blindly follow such a piss poor religion like that.

Really silly things you can be killed for... you can even be killing for missing prayers no matter what the reason was.

Self hatred and bitter ignorance will always prevent islam from moving forward.. it will be eternally trapped in a dark and evil age filled with murderous wretches, rapists and all out violent scum.

Done with the thread now, really can't be arsed trying to state the obvious which everyone seems to ignore and mistake islam for a rosey dosey lovely religion what it isn't.

What a surprise response.

 

[Mey]

To be fair the Muslim faith is relatively peaceful it's just the hate filled bile that some of its parishioners are teaching that gives it its bad name.

 

[old.Tohtori]

To be fair the Muslim faith is relatively peaceful it's just the hate filled bile that some of its parishioners are teaching that gives it its bad name.

Same with every religion, belief and/or non-belief/religion.

Luckily not nordic belief, not many around, mostly get curiosity.

And i think every normal religious person would rather live without the fanatics too.

 

[Mey]

Though you are right, it’s unfortunate that the Muslim faith seems to take the hate filled bile to a new level. I certainly do not want to be ruled by a totalitarian Islamic state but I’m fearful if we don’t do something to curb the madness it is a distinct possibility.