Politics POLL: Brexit Withdrawal Agreement

[Gwadien]

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@Deebs can we rename this thread Scouse screaming into the void?

that's an apt description of Brexit

 

[Bodhi]

that's an apt description of The Guardians coverage of Brexit

True.

Also funny to look back on the "Oh noes" articles he's been posting with good old 20:20 vision.

Like the Economy growth one. Germany says HI!

Also good to see the EU stopped all those athletes swimming in the Seine in the Olympics from being grossed out/vomiting.

Oh.

 

[Scouse]

@Bodhi - I know you voted Brexit but you do show a, shall we say, less than salubrious attitude to pesticide usage, so if you're happy with 4,000 times the amount of pesticides allowed in your cup of tea, then more power to you.

But the things you denied would happen before Brexit have pretty much all happened.

 

[Bodhi]

I did vote to Leave yes, however if you remember me saying I saw very strong arguments for both sides and was 60:40 in favour of Leave - in the end a dislike of bureaucracy tipped me in that direction - however I was never one of the headbangers and whichever way the referendum went I would have accepted the result and got on with my life.

You voted remain and have had a hissy fit for going on 8 years now that the plebs you always claim to support voted the wrong way, and spent that time pontificating that the end was nigh.

However clearly given we left 4 years ago, an almighty amount of water has gone under the bridge since then (war, pestilence, the return of Oasis) the world clearly hasn't ended - in fact we seem to be doing better than a few of the powerhouses of the EU.

You also have to remember that if being in the EU was important - we wouldn't have been allowed to vote on it

 

[Overdriven]

I did vote to Leave yes, however if you remember me saying I saw very strong arguments for both sides and was 60:40 in favour of Leave - in the end a dislike of bureaucracy tipped me in that direction - however I was never one of the headbangers and whichever way the referendum went I would have accepted the result and got on with my life.

You voted remain and have had a hissy fit for going on 8 years now that the plebs you always claim to support voted the wrong way, and spent that time pontificating that the end was nigh.

However clearly given we left 4 years ago, an almighty amount of water has gone under the bridge since then (war, pestilence, the return of Oasis) the world clearly hasn't ended - in fact we seem to be doing better than a few of the powerhouses of the EU.

You also have to remember that if being in the EU was important - we wouldn't have been allowed to vote on it

20-30% price increase in food, water, gas.
28%~ price increase on imports.
0% increase in the eligibility for people to study in Europe due to free movement.
Far too many other things to think about or type.

EU is BAD! EU IS EVIL! EU MAKES ALL THE RULES! (When actually the UK ratified a significant proportion of EU rules and laws which benefited not only us, but every other state... But nah, EU bad coz... Uhm.... EU)

Your last point is ridiculous. We offered the choice to vote probably as a joke and the vast majority of the UK are too stupid/old to understand the actual impact of it. That vote basically fucked everyone under 50.

I am a remoaner (obviously) and I live with the choices the majority made. Wrong choice but oh well. There has been a direct impact to me and my family. But guess what? Majority rules.

 

[Bodhi]

20-30% price increase in food, water, gas.
28%~ price increase on imports.
0% increase in the eligibility for people to study in Europe due to free movement.
Far too many other things to think about or type.

EU is BAD! EU IS EVIL! EU MAKES ALL THE RULES! (When actually the UK ratified a significant proportion of EU rules and laws which benefited not only us, but every other state... But nah, EU bad coz... Uhm.... EU)

Your last point is ridiculous. We offered the choice to vote probably as a joke and the vast majority of the UK are too stupid/old to understand the actual impact of it. That vote basically fucked everyone under 50.

Can't think what's caused a 30% increase in supplies since early 2020 - almost like there was a major pandemic that made money printer go Brrrrrr! then a major conflict that briefly spiked the price of gas....

Strange how when we were over there the Cypriots were complaining about similar things, whilst still in the EU.

Given the vote again I'd vote the same way.

HTH.

 

[Overdriven]

Can't think what's caused a 30% increase in supplies since early 2020 - almost like there was a major pandemic that made money printer go Brrrrrr! then a major conflict that briefly spiked the price of gas....

Strange how when we were over there the Cypriots were complaining about similar things, whilst still in the EU.

Given the vote again I'd vote the same way.

HTH.

What's the link between Brexit and Covid again?



I honestly am indifferent between leave/stay as (and realistically, even tho it's an unpopular opinion) I have no problem getting a Visa/Other travel documentation. I also have zero issues with most things as other than the cost of utility (which we can afford..) nothing else diredtly impacts me.

Our food quality is shittier now though.. That annoys us the most.

 

[Bodhi]

View attachment 49527

View attachment 49528

What's the link between Brexit and Covid again?



I honestly am indifferent between leave/stay as (and realistically, even tho it's an unpopular opinion) I have no problem getting a Visa/Other travel documentation. I also have zero issues with most things as other than the cost of utility (which we can afford..) nothing else diredtly impacts me.

Our food quality is shittier now though.. That annoys us the most.

It caused the inflation that you're blaming on Brexit.

 

[Tom]

However clearly given we left 4 years ago, an almighty amount of water has gone under the bridge since then

That water includes many dead pensioners, if the vote were held now I think it'd be for rejoining. The question isn't if we're doing better than our neighbours, it's if we'd do better overall as a member of the EU.

BTW if we were in the EU, that water would probably have many less turds in it.

 

[Bodhi]

Yes the EU did wonders at keeping turds out the Seine for the Olympics.

 

[Overdriven]

It caused the inflation that you're blaming on Brexit.

Funny how I've been working in one of the few sectors which had to deal with the non-press filled version of this...

Yes, covid had an effect on inflation (The biggest in terms of consumer markets...) but it was not the cause. Brexit kick started a chain of events and legislative/governance bullshit which started the impact which Covid made worse.

Covid didn't cause a 350% increase in form filling, red tape, and political drama (I mean.. It did.. But not for the same reasons), and more things which have kept me awake at night than you'd guess.

Brexit caused the start of the inflation fuckbubble.
The effect of Covid made it go tragic.

So yes... We should have remained, but we didn't. Oh well.

 

[Scouse]

Given the vote again I'd vote the same way.

To be honest, I can't recall voting (if I did, it was likely remain). I understood the arguments about making our own decisions and being in charge of our own future - and I think they were important - but I also thought leaving the EU would lead to a race to the bottom on environmnent, health and public safety.

Leave voters, such as yourself, all to a man poo-pooed that idea. Refuted it completely. Said that we'd exercise our sovereignty responsibly and we'd enhance, not degrade, life in the UK.

As I feared - the exact opposite has happened. We're less secure, environmental protections have been rolled back en masse, we're lagging behind the EU in huge swathes of really important areas.

Also, as I suspected, the leave voters give no shit about any of these things. And unfortunately, it's people who think like that who'll directly lead the human race to it's eventual extinction...

 

[Bodhi]

WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!!!!

 

[Overdriven]

WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!!!!

Yep

 

[Scouse]

Anything but discuss the race-to-the-bottom environmental and health issues eh @Bodhi? They weren't a reality before brexit, but thanks to your vote, they are now

 

[Scouse]

EU confirms it wants UK to pay into its budget in exchange for closer ties

‘Politically realistic’ for UK to make financial contribution so it can access European single market, Irish minister says

www.theguardian.com

So, we want closer ties. Great.

Ignoring the rest, it seems the EU wants Europe's second largest wind generator to pay to access it's market?

Are they not going to benefit from cheap electricity when the windy UK is blowing hard? We're in a premium position here.

Taking the top 5 countries we'd be adding about 20% capacity, second only to Germany.

We'd also be exposing ourselves to external risk events.

I'm honestly all for a European Supergrid (although I think we're going to have to lay some cable in the Eurotunnel to stop Russia casually disconnecting us). But the EU gains as much from our participation as we do from theirs.

If we pay, then we could just spend that cash on extra capacity at home...

 

[DaGaffer]

EU confirms it wants UK to pay into its budget in exchange for closer ties

‘Politically realistic’ for UK to make financial contribution so it can access European single market, Irish minister says

www.theguardian.com

So, we want closer ties. Great.

Ignoring the rest, it seems the EU wants Europe's second largest wind generator to pay to access it's market?

Are they not going to benefit from cheap electricity when the windy UK is blowing hard? We're in a premium position here.

Taking the top 5 countries we'd be adding about 20% capacity, second only to Germany.

We'd also be exposing ourselves to external risk events.

I'm honestly all for a European Supergrid (although I think we're going to have to lay some cable in the Eurotunnel to stop Russia casually disconnecting us). But the EU gains as much from our participation as we do from theirs.

If we pay, then we could just spend that cash on extra capacity at home...

You voted stupid, you live with the consequences of voting stupid. Take it up with the Gammons, not the EU, because this kind of thing is absolutely inevitable.

 

[Embattle]

EU confirms it wants UK to pay into its budget in exchange for closer ties

‘Politically realistic’ for UK to make financial contribution so it can access European single market, Irish minister says

www.theguardian.com

So, we want closer ties. Great.

Ignoring the rest, it seems the EU wants Europe's second largest wind generator to pay to access it's market?

Are they not going to benefit from cheap electricity when the windy UK is blowing hard? We're in a premium position here.

Taking the top 5 countries we'd be adding about 20% capacity, second only to Germany.

We'd also be exposing ourselves to external risk events.

I'm honestly all for a European Supergrid (although I think we're going to have to lay some cable in the Eurotunnel to stop Russia casually disconnecting us). But the EU gains as much from our participation as we do from theirs.

If we pay, then we could just spend that cash on extra capacity at home...

The whole thing seems to be about making it easier to do energy business across countries, so for us, nothing really changes if we aren't part of it.


Although you should remember what happened with NSEC, so nothing is that surprising.

 

[Gwadien]

You voted stupid, you live with the consequences of voting stupid. Take it up with the Gammons, not the EU, because this kind of thing is absolutely inevitable.

Completely true.

For the EU rightly or wrongly, making the UK the lesser partner in *anything* is their absolute priority.

Why would they not.

 

[Scouse]

You voted stupid, you live with the consequences of voting stupid. Take it up with the Gammons, not the EU, because this kind of thing is absolutely inevitable.

Hey, I don't care. If the EU wants to cut it's own nose off to spite it's face, then fine.

If it wants access to the UK's advanced renewable energy market, then quid pro quo.

From a taxpayer standpoint, it's absolutely fine if we don't join. I absolutely get the EU's desire to kick us and, really, to be seen to be kicking us. But since we voted to Brexit, we may as well take advantage of any advantageous position - and if that means telling the EU to fuck off if they want to charge us just so they can buy our energy when they need it, then that's fair no?

Brexit is now dead. You deal with the new reality. I'm sure there'll be plenty of other opportunities for the EU demonstrate how much of a badass it is and how dumb the UK is - but if we roll over for this, then meh.

I mean, it's Labour though. They'll pony up anything

 

[Scouse]

For the EU rightly or wrongly, making the UK the lesser partner in *anything* is their absolute priority.

I think for remoaners being able to show brexiters that brexiters were wrong and remoaners were right is the absolute priority.

Even if, frankly, we should just move on and try to get the best we can, rather than live in some backwards emotional past.

 

[Gwadien]

Why did you just state two different opinions to two different people?

 

[Scouse]

Why did you just state two different opinions to two different people?

I have? I don't think so. Genuinely, please explain.

 

[DaGaffer]

Hey, I don't care. If the EU wants to cut it's own nose off to spite it's face, then fine.

If it wants access to the UK's advanced renewable energy market, then quid pro quo.

From a taxpayer standpoint, it's absolutely fine if we don't join. I absolutely get the EU's desire to kick us and, really, to be seen to be kicking us. But since we voted to Brexit, we may as well take advantage of any advantageous position - and if that means telling the EU to fuck off if they want to charge us just so they can buy our energy when they need it, then that's fair no?

Brexit is now dead. You deal with the new reality. I'm sure there'll be plenty of other opportunities for the EU demonstrate how much of a badass it is and how dumb the UK is - but if we roll over for this, then meh.

I mean, it's Labour though. They'll pony up anything

The UK always needed Europe more than the other way around, this is still true. The UK (smaller market) wants to sell energy to the EU (bigger market). Everyone else in that bigger market contributes to make it function. There is no way the UK could be given a free ride. I'm sure that if I searched hard enough I'd find quotes from you making that very point during the Brexit debate. I know for a fact that I did.

 

[Embattle]

The UK always needed Europe more than the other way around, this is still true. The UK (smaller market) wants to sell energy to the EU (bigger market). Everyone else in that bigger market contributes to make it function. There is no way the UK could be given a free ride. I'm sure that if I searched hard enough I'd find quotes from you making that very point during the Brexit debate. I know for a fact that I did.

It'll still be sold, just it'll cost UK/Europe more as there will be the same hurdles that exist now, but so be it.

 

[old.Osy]

TLDR: It was a silly choice, Bodhi still in denial.

 

[Scouse]

The UK always needed Europe more than the other way around, this is still true. The UK (smaller market) wants to sell energy to the EU (bigger market). Everyone else in that bigger market contributes to make it function. There is no way the UK could be given a free ride. I'm sure that if I searched hard enough I'd find quotes from you making that very point during the Brexit debate. I know for a fact that I did.

I don't think it's a free ride. And I'd state it the other way round - the EU wants to buy UK electricity because we're bloody windy (our wind farms are really efficient and we often overproduce when Europe is dead - it doesn't happen anywhere near as much the other way round).

Pre Brexit I absolutely made statements that would say everyone needs to play nice. But closing in on a decade ago now since the vote, and five full years since implementation - we've clearly fallen out. And we're approaching some sort of rapprochement.

So, given the new political reality - the UK has a massive amount of wind, and it'll be the EU that benefits from being able to purchase our excess energy cheaply. Whereas for the UK we'll get smoothing, but also exposure to external energy market risks. Why would we pay? It'd be nice to have access to that market, but given we're second only to Germany in productive capacity the EU arguably stands to benefit more than we do.

I'm OK with the EU benefiting more. That's fine. Lets play nice. But I'd say suck my balls if we have to pay for something the EU wants...

 

[DaGaffer]

I don't think it's a free ride. And I'd state it the other way round - the EU wants to buy UK electricity because we're bloody windy (our wind farms are really efficient and we often overproduce when Europe is dead - it doesn't happen anywhere near as much the other way round).

All of Britain's wind power put together would make up 2-3% of Europe's total energy output (12% of Europe's wind output, and 30% of Britain's energy output). It's a much bigger deal for the UK than it is for the rest of Europe.

 

[Scouse]

If we're talking complete renewable energy output the UK's about 7%.

And as for it being a bigger deal for UK than EU:

And: UK wind power hits new record as operator eyes zero carbon grid milestone

Just how exactly? We'll apparently be producing nearly all of our energy from low-carbon sources by 2030. Who gives a fuck if we sell that to the EU or not. But the EU would very much like to say to the world it's obtaining more of it's energy from renewables. If the UK buys / sells more through interlinks, we'll actually technically be obtaining less electricity from renewable sources if we trade capacity with the EU.

We don't really need it. But we should still do it - because it's the right thing to do.

 

[DaGaffer]

If we're talking complete renewable energy output the UK's about 7%.

But we're not. The European energy market is designed to arbitrage everything. Wind power and other renewables benefit from this because of varying availability v demand, therefore it's of more interest to the suppliers with the variable supply then the countries with the demand (which is more predictable). Yes the EU would like to do some net Zero chest thumping, but let's be honest here, far less than they would have a couple of years ago; they are backsliding on commitments all over the place; the end of life for ICE cars will be extended out shortly as well.