PC Format DAOC turnabout

[Crookshanks]

Last month PC Format reviewed NF and gave it a pretty damming review - to which we all (in the main) slated as some Hibby sided view of a "albion dominated" game.

So imagine my surprise opening this months copy to find the catacomb (brief) preview as:

Rarely have we been so zonked by a game presentation, but the new graphics engine for DAOC, combined with the new areas and races, practically knocked us out. It's almost EQII quality.

Now call me a cynic - but "new graphics engine"? I thought it was just the character models which were changing - is the scenary significantly changed? Maybe they just read our slating of their NF review and decided to fire the writer and hire someone else

With previews like this - perhaps new blood will be tempted into DAOC. GOA's new English advertising agency might finally be pulling their weight

 

[Shanaia]

http://telaran.org/goodies/media/dmwm.wmv
Watch that and say that doesn't look gooood

Yes it's the same graphic engine .. but it's a very very updated graphic engine that makes much better use of Directx9 for example making it look bloody awsome...

 

[UndyingAngel]

nope just teh char models.. im sure they made some tweeks to the GFX engine as well..

 

[Flimgoblin]

technically it's a new engine (based on the old one) which allows it to render the new more complicated models (and all the armour upgrades etc.)

 

[Penlid]

Everything looks differant tbh, Dungeons look way better as well as the character models. Mobs look differant as well

 

[Flimgoblin]

Everything looks differant tbh, Dungeons look way better as well as the character models. Mobs look differant as well

aye they redid the old dungeon textures, massive improvement. The new zones are well impressive too.

Mobs got the same overhaul that players did (or at least a lot of them did - not all of them but hey there's a lot of models ) the new trees are just cool

 

[Syri]

main problem though, all of these positives mentioned come down to one thing. how pretty it looks. it's about time, imo, that mythic tried to sort out the major problems and issues, that are making people leave. sure, they've still got their 'hardcore' fans, but if i was running an mmorpg, i'd also want to make sure that i try and keep in those people that are at the moment, being tempted away to other games. Mythic's decision to look at implementing a casual server is a double bad idea. for one thing, it's an admission that their game has lost it's appeal for casual players, and that those are being driven away at the moment. for another thing, it seperates those casual players from their friends who play on the other servers, and if they've already got a character or 2 but just don't get to play them that much, they'll have to start from scratch. basically, they're admitting there's an issue, then saying "we won't fix it, we'll sidestep it instead"
it's just this that's made me quit, and i think it's about time they decided "enough's enough, let's do a total overhaul". like they did with NF, but over the whole game. radically redesign and rebalance each class, race and realm, within the limits of that class' mythology that's been established, of course. it needs to be done, as it's on very rocky ground now, and bumping up the graphics, and adding new areas to pl your buffbots in, is only going to keep people happy for so long.

 

[Fana]

main problem though, all of these positives mentioned come down to one thing. how pretty it looks. it's about time, imo, that mythic tried to sort out the major problems and issues, that are making people leave. sure, they've still got their 'hardcore' fans, but if i was running an mmorpg, i'd also want to make sure that i try and keep in those people that are at the moment, being tempted away to other games. Mythic's decision to look at implementing a casual server is a double bad idea. for one thing, it's an admission that their game has lost it's appeal for casual players, and that those are being driven away at the moment. for another thing, it seperates those casual players from their friends who play on the other servers, and if they've already got a character or 2 but just don't get to play them that much, they'll have to start from scratch. basically, they're admitting there's an issue, then saying "we won't fix it, we'll sidestep it instead"
it's just this that's made me quit, and i think it's about time they decided "enough's enough, let's do a total overhaul". like they did with NF, but over the whole game. radically redesign and rebalance each class, race and realm, within the limits of that class' mythology that's been established, of course. it needs to be done, as it's on very rocky ground now, and bumping up the graphics, and adding new areas to pl your buffbots in, is only going to keep people happy for so long.

I agree with this. Mythics priority now should be to adress classbalance, with a stylereweiw, spellreweiw, craftingrewiew (more fun, more usefull) etc. Also more redesign of ToA to make master levels doable by no more than a fg, in any order and not take so many hours in one sitting to complete. Artifacts they have already adressed with better droprate, easier scrollfarming and exping.

And yes they should definetly try to draw more on each realms mythology when adding any new stuff in the future - both SI and ToA had very little to do with the arthurian, norse and celtic mythology.

 

[eggy]

Also more redesign of ToA to make master levels doable by no more than a fg.

The idea of Master Levels is to encourage teamwork. Besides, changing all encounters to be doable by 8 people would mean a massive decrease in the levels of mobs. They would be constantly farmed, shattering market value of rare items, and making kitting out your template far too "easy", with little excitement value.

Besides, try and figure out how to do 4.2 with 8 people

 

[Tesla Monkor]

shattering market value of rare items

Which would be a good thing, imho. Now increase the scroll dropping and everyone can have nice toys - even the people who start new in a realm and aren't multimillionaires.. And those are the people you want to keep.

 

[Haldar]

Besides, try and figure out how to do 4.2 with 8 people

with catapults and someone's mother...

 

[rampant]

i like TOA - the quests, the arti's, the ML's - yes they can be frustrating getting ppl together and getting ppl organised - but i can genuinely say that i really do like TOA (sad i know) -

im not so sure about the server clustering tho - seems to be a bit problematic atm over in the US - and i would definatly not be up for clustered TOA regions.

 

[Helme]

i like TOA - the quests, the arti's, the ML's - yes they can be frustrating getting ppl together and getting ppl organised - but i can genuinely say that i really do like TOA (sad i know) -

I agree, I also like ToA when the raids, artis etc. actually works and you don't need to repeat it.

And about the rare drops being more common, I would feel cheated since I spent months getting those drops then someone plays 2 hours and get the same. Also they would mean less to the person getting it almost instantly as it does to me, I worked hard and long for my drop.

 

[Chrystina]

Last month PC Format reviewed NF and gave it a pretty damming review - to which we all (in the main) slated as some Hibby sided view of a "albion dominated" game.

So imagine my surprise opening this months copy to find the catacomb (brief) preview as

I don't get your point about being surprised? It's two different products/expansions, so why would it be surprising to have two different opinions about them? the NF review was correct, NF is shite... even I as a PvE biatch much prefered old emain and NF made me leave the game (yeah, I can hear some ppl cheering with joy)...
Catacombs on the other hand LOOKS much better and more state of the art and it won't screw up the game us much as NF did (and stop whining @ ToA fgs, you all love your artis and ML's)

 

[Crookshanks]

I don't get your point about being surprised? It's two different products/expansions, so why would it be surprising to have two different opinions about them?

I was simply surprised that the magazine actually gave a (what appears) fair preview after deciding in the past 3? reviews that DAOC is crap. I've observed in other reviews that once a particular game has been classed as poor, it doesn't matter how good the sequel is its already been put in the "dire" catagory regardless. Of course we'll have to wait for the actual review - maybe its a different department who do the pre- and re-views.

 

[Shike]

Catacombs on the other hand LOOKS much better and more state of the art and it won't screw up the game us much as NF did (and stop whining @ ToA fgs, you all love your artis and ML's)

hahaha

Cata doesnt screw up the game???? are you for real? sure it looks nice and all but.. I guess you just have to see it to understand what I'm talking about

hint: Catas introduced a horrible class that is pretty darn fucked up beyond anything Mythic ever have done before and it aint Heretics ^^

 

[Chronictank]

Besides, try and figure out how to do 4.2 with 8 people

Doable with 2-3fg +bots
Tailored for the ml ofc

 

[Fana]

The idea of Master Levels is to encourage teamwork. Besides, changing all encounters to be doable by 8 people would mean a massive decrease in the levels of mobs. They would be constantly farmed, shattering market value of rare items, and making kitting out your template far too "easy", with little excitement value.

Besides, try and figure out how to do 4.2 with 8 people

Well you can have nice teamwork with less people also, dont have to be 5fg or 10fg - better to save that teamwork for rvr (keeptakes and such). Getting to ml10 shouldnt take more time than getting level 50, or be more frustrating.

As for shattering market value, well i would personaly love to see the value of many items on the consigners halved or more so that people that have other things to do than farm for plats all day long could get them.
The important thing is to let people get ready for what this game execells at: RvR. PvE should be made as non-frustrating as possible. Back in the SI days we could get our template sorted in a matter of days and go rvr, id like a return to those days.

About figuring a way to do 4.2 with 8 people, well, i didnt mean the players should have to figure out how to do this, i meant that Mythic should redesign it so that 8 people was the way it was supposed to be done. F.ex: make the mobs in the tentcamps not respawn while the encounter is underway, make the mobs that run to put out flames run slower and be less numerous, and maybe greencon. Make the fortress of storms less heavily defended and the boss lower level etc etc.

 

[IainC]

We're getting off topic with this discussion, but bear this in mind. Pre ToA there was very little high level PvE content. An epic dungeon per realm, a few high level epic mobs in a zone for everyone and a Dragon. The players wanted more high level PvE encounters and stuff that didn't just roll over when faced with a full group. Mythic came up with the Master Levels and certain artifact encounters and now people are saying they don't want high level PvE and everything should be doable with a full group....

 

[Sendraks]

It'd be fair to say that the casual player base is the prime target market for MMORPGS out there. Too many online games to play and not enough hardcore players to support them all.

So, and I'm guessing herem, but I don't think it was the casual gamer community in DAoC asking for tougher PvE content or master levels that required beyond a full group to complete them.

Also, the master levels and artifacts aren't just PvE content, they are seen as being pre-requisites for competing successfully in RvR. I suppose if they didn't give something above and beyond regular PvE content, the RvR community wouldn't have been interested in them, so ultimately you have an expansion that tries to provide something to both communities, but ultimately frustrates those who want to progress in RVR.

I'm sure that providing an expansion for an MMORPG that provides long term engagement for the player base is not an easy thing to do and ToA, for all its frustrations, was a bold effort in that direction.

 

[Fana]

We're getting off topic with this discussion, but bear this in mind. Pre ToA there was very little high level PvE content. An epic dungeon per realm, a few high level epic mobs in a zone for everyone and a Dragon. The players wanted more high level PvE encounters and stuff that didn't just roll over when faced with a full group. Mythic came up with the Master Levels and certain artifact encounters and now people are saying they don't want high level PvE and everything should be doable with a full group....

Well i wouldnt mind encounters that required a zerg to do if the items/abilities you got from them werent so overpowered, making them needed in the armsrace that is rvr. Everyone needs to have high ML's and certain hard-to-get artifacts if they dont want to roll over and die when faced with those who have them. Pre-ToA there was still hard-to-get items (like Foeslayer from Tuscaran Glacier etc) but they didnt unbalance the game for those that didnt have time to get them.

 

[Gibbo]

........ The players wanted more high level PvE encounters and stuff that didn't just roll over when faced with a full group. ....

No, the stuff they introduced rolls over when faced with a Necro and Buffbot

As for PC Format, I play the games I like to play. Not what someone else tells me I should be playing.

 

[Awarkle]

well i have to agree generally i buy magazines that have interesting storys in them about computer games or the genre in general not like 99% which consist of OMG HL2 ROXORS. I think the important thing is that daoc is getting some coverage its getting a page or even half a page with screenshots that people might not have seen and decide that its looking nice.

and for god sake stop whining about overpowered classes, yes warlock probbly is a powerful class but it just requires people to think about how to kill them like IE nearsight or similar mezz works fine and im sure they will go the way that all overpowered classes go IE they will be dead first in a fight. Midgard havnt got an UBAH class for rvr they got good but i wouldnt say overpowered or uselfull in keep offence / defence like the Range Advantage that Albions got or the Shroom advantage Hibernia has got.

I think what people were saying is that Catacombs doesnt introduce overpowered items or equipment that is a must. Toa introduced artifacts and mls Catacombs introduces some new classes to play with different play styles and some new zones to pve in for lower levels im looking forward to that and whats stopping you from changing realms if you think warlocks are so overpowered and rolling one on midgard ?

 

[IainC]

Pre-ToA, the choices for a level 50 character were RvR (which not every player wants to do, and not every player who does want to RvR necessarily wants to do it all the time), Craft or start levelling another alt. Many players - casuals as well as hardcore players wanted more PvE content to increase the choices for high level players.

THe argument about 'needing' artifacts or MLs has been had many times and I don't see any reason to dredge it up again however I doubt that the truly casual players are overly worried about getting perfect templates. This is really a case of where you draw the line regarding what counts as a casual player. The vast majority of subscribers probably play less than 5 hours a week. These are true casuals. The kind of players who post on these forums may not necessarily be 'hardcore' but they have the same aspirations as those who play several hours a night every day of the week, they want to get more out of the game than a diversion every so often. Most casual players that I speak to really aren't that concerned about getting to ML10 or RR12 or capping everything on their template many aren't even concerned about getting to 50. For these players ToA is more about exploring and increasing the choice they have than any percieved frustration or 'grind'.

 

[Shike]

and for god sake stop whining about overpowered classes, yes warlock probbly is a powerful class but it just requires people to think about how to kill them like IE nearsight or similar mezz works fine and im sure they will go the way that all overpowered classes go IE they will be dead first in a fight. Midgard havnt got an UBAH class for rvr they got good but i wouldnt say overpowered or uselfull in keep offence / defence like the Range Advantage that Albions got or the Shroom advantage Hibernia has got.

I think what people were saying is that Catacombs doesnt introduce overpowered items or equipment that is a must. Toa introduced artifacts and mls Catacombs introduces some new classes to play with different play styles and some new zones to pve in for lower levels im looking forward to that and whats stopping you from changing realms if you think warlocks are so overpowered and rolling one on midgard ?

errm, whats stopping is:

a) TOA.. done alot of it and tbh, I aint ever gonna bring up a toon through the TOAgrind ever again. Its too timeconsuming and ultimately not really worth it. And I really dont feel like rolling a class just because its ridicilously overpowered. Bandwagoners do that...
b) Midgard, I have played Mid before, and I simply do not enjoy the environment, its too gray and dull.


Regarding the methods of nullifying a warlock, sure.. nearsight works, and sure, mez works..

scenario: you run in a grp, you run past any area somewhere... it happens to be so that a solowarlock is hidden behind a bush, so you dont see the guy (unless you radar I guess). Suddenly, *poff*, you die. (casters just instadie to a warlock, and I mean instadie... vaporized is a term id use.) Grats.. you just faced a cheesy warlock. You actually think this scenario is fine? Wtf are you smoking? I bet you think the serious losissues with animists are fine too? Or when zerkers did 1500 per swing? Or when stealthers didnt unstealth if they oneshotted someone? etc....... *scratches head*.. wtf?

Dont say stuff you know nothing about awark. When you have faced highRR warlocks and know wtf they actually can do, and think they still are fine, ooook... then you have a valid point. But i seriosly doubt you will like it. Nobody but mids do, especially not casters since they have zero chanse of survival if a WL homes in on you and is in range. Tanks can survive, but pretty often die aswell if DIs etc are down. Im a merc, topnotch gear, with 31% matter normally, 2300 something HP, I charged a WL solo and he took me down within 3 seconds, alone and I was hitting him at the same time. Reason I died was that my demor was down, only way to survive is to use Demor.. so, if you are a banelord tank, you stand a reasonable chanse, otherwise, dont bother. Still no reason to whine alil I guess.. or?...

Its easy to sit and say.. shut up and stop whining.. when you havent even faced the source of the whine.

 

[Edaemos]

My main concern is the lack of advertisement and distribution DAOC gets in the UK. Quite a few French and German servers have very high populations where as the English ones have taken a huge hit, its almost impossible to buy DAOC from the store in the UK and any review i see in english magazines is usually 1-2 sentences in the top corner of a page with a minimized screenshot from 2001.

Edit: also its not nice to see the lag creeping back into the game over the last few days.

 

[IainC]

My main concern is the lack of advertisement and distribution DAOC gets in the UK. Quite a few French and German servers have very high populations where as the English ones have taken a huge hit, its almost impossible to buy DAOC from the store in the UK and any review i see in english magazines is usually 1-2 sentences in the top corner of a page with a minimized screenshot from 2001.

Edit: also its not nice to see the lag creeping back into the game over the last few days.

Have you tried recently? I don't live in the UK so it's hard for me to check shops there, but I hear it's a lot easier to find it these days than it has been in the past.

As for press coverage - well as you can see by the first post in this thread before it got dragged off topic, that seems to have turned around as well. I recently spent a couple of days in the UK talking to a variety of journalists, TV programs, and web editors - including PC Format, presenting the game and talking up the release. With our new UK PR agency and new distributors I think the old problems are a thing of the past. Look out for more mainstream press coverage at the time of the release - already apparently Sky TV are showing DAoC ads and there are more initiatives to come yet.

 

[Elendar]

Pre-ToA, the choices for a level 50 character were RvR (which not every player wants to do, and not every player who does want to RvR necessarily wants to do it all the time), Craft or start levelling another alt. Many players - casuals as well as hardcore players wanted more PvE content to increase the choices for high level players.

THe argument about 'needing' artifacts or MLs has been had many times and I don't see any reason to dredge it up again however I doubt that the truly casual players are overly worried about getting perfect templates. This is really a case of where you draw the line regarding what counts as a casual player. The vast majority of subscribers probably play less than 5 hours a week. These are true casuals. The kind of players who post on these forums may not necessarily be 'hardcore' but they have the same aspirations as those who play several hours a night every day of the week, they want to get more out of the game than a diversion every so often. Most casual players that I speak to really aren't that concerned about getting to ML10 or RR12 or capping everything on their template many aren't even concerned about getting to 50. For these players ToA is more about exploring and increasing the choice they have than any percieved frustration or 'grind'.

having more things to do to at lvl 50 is a good thing yes, but you shouldn't have to do them to be able to compete in what is meant to be the endgame
and mls+artis are not just a slight edge, someone with them will beat someone without them without breaking a sweat
a few mls that totally change the balance of play and make a huge difference to rvr, bodyguard, practically a requirement for hero/pally/war now, grapple, still not nerfed, fz - i win, suddenly hugely nerfed, good to see gradual testing and fast appreciation of problems here. and banelord as a line
toa just seems to have a lot of things in it designed not to give the player something to do in order to make it more fun, but to require time to be spent.
having to level artis, this is not something fun added to the game to give players other options, it is a requirement if you want that item
argument for this is mainly that if you want good items you should be prepared to put work in for them
but exping? thats what you've already done for 50 levels, having to do something interesting and different might actually have made this a fun extra not a chore
and masterlevels - if they where designed to be something else to do, why put artificial delays in them, solo trials, such as midway through ml 1 and 2, something different maybe? but why in the middle of a raid that requires large numbers
toa seems designed to take time and full of time sinks, rather than to provide something to do to pass the time
shrouded isles added the epic dungeons, and lots of new quests, many things from these where nice extras in rvr or pve, but none where vital and you could get by fine without them. you could go on the epic raids when you wanted, and at any level, in toa many casual players will probably never see the inside of ml7, let alone 9 or 10
shrouded isles provided a way to spend time pveing without having to
trials of atlanties provided a way to force time to be spent in pve, they pretty much added more levels, you had to exp, and get a lot of new gear to compete

 

[Edaemos]

Have you tried recently? I don't live in the UK so it's hard for me to check shops there, but I hear it's a lot easier to find it these days than it has been in the past.

As for press coverage - well as you can see by the first post in this thread before it got dragged off topic, that seems to have turned around as well. I recently spent a couple of days in the UK talking to a variety of journalists, TV programs, and web editors - including PC Format, presenting the game and talking up the release. With our new UK PR agency and new distributors I think the old problems are a thing of the past. Look out for more mainstream press coverage at the time of the release - already apparently Sky TV are showing DAoC ads and there are more initiatives to come yet.

I have checked game/virgin/hmv in both Leicester and Scunthorpe in the UK, none have any as of yet. But im extremely happy to hear about the UK PR Agency, this will hopefully be of huge benefit to the UK servers.

Thank you for your reply

 

[Flimgoblin]

daoc ads on sky? ooh I need to put the simpsons on more