Paris Attacked... again

[Job]

No, you're not.

You're the one who thought it was funny when a Muslim man walked into a pub (ha) and then someone jeered at him. What if that began a downward spiral of anti-English views because he was victimised because of - as you said it - purely his religion, who's responsible then?

Just re read that post, it was a bit of banter and everyone laughed.
I dont feel guilty for judging religious people, they have a very dangerous mindset.

 

[chipper]

tom what makes you think it will take the form of suicide attacks?

 

[old.user4556]

And on the same day, some fairly horrible accounts of the previous attacks on French soil surface.

EXCLUSIVE: France 'Suppressed News of Gruesome Torture' at Bataclan Massacre

Probably NSFW. And fucking grim.

Barbarians now represent Islam...it's up to them to rise up and prove to us their culture has moved on.

Barbaric treatment of infidels is written into the very fabric of the Quran:

"Fight them until Islam reigns supreme" (Sura 2:193). "Cut off their heads, and cut off the tips of their fingers" (Sura 8:12)."

Granted, it's in reference to a specific fight / war / battle, but that's irrelevant.

 

[TdC]

oh puh-leze let's not go cherry picking nasty quotes from old books because they're all harsh as fuck and everyone loses.

 

[old.user4556]

oh puh-leze let's not go cherry picking nasty quotes from old books because they're all harsh as fuck and everyone loses.

Bro, with the highest of respect, but that's the worst apologist thing I've read in some time.

 

[Tom]

tom what makes you think it will take the form of suicide attacks?

I don't?

 

[TdC]

Bro, with the highest of respect, but that's the worst apologist thing I've read in some time.

Cheers dude. Just so we're clear, for every cherry picked horrible verse from any holy book there are likely 10 beautiful ones. Don't let yourself be swayed by the low hanging fruit and all that.

 

[old.user4556]

That's the problem with all religious scripture, it's full of completely contradictory versus that one can pick and choose from and thus nullifies any credibility of them. The unfortunate position is that the radical Muslims can find absolutely spades of horrifically barbaric ones and "my good pal Asif Shafiq" can find a whole load of quotes that show Islam to be a wonderful thing.

The bottom line is that they're all terrible, and their influence on the world demonstrates that. In the context of my post, I was responding to Bodhi's link where alleged finger-chopping and eye-gouging took place (as referenced in Sura) and also Job's post about Islam being barbaric (which religious texts are full of).

Let's not pick on Islam though, let's just balance out this argument by reminding everyone that the Christian God performed a human sacrifice of his own son. That's some incredibly fucked up shit right there.

 

[Gwadien]

That's the problem with all religious scripture, it's full of completely contradictory versus that one can pick and choose from and thus nullifies any credibility of them. The unfortunate position is that the radical Muslims can find absolutely spades of horrifically barbaric ones and "my good pal Asif Shafiq" can find a whole load of quotes that show Islam to be a wonderful thing.

The bottom line is that they're all terrible, and their influence on the world demonstrates that. In the context of my post, I was responding to Bodhi's link where alleged finger-chopping and eye-gouging took place (as referenced in Sura) and also Job's post about Islam being barbaric (which religious texts are full of).

Let's not pick on Islam though, let's just balance out this argument by reminding everyone that the Christian God performed a human sacrifice of his own son. That's some incredibly fucked up shit right there.

I think the point TDC is making is that just because the book says shit doesn't mean they follow it.

However, as much as eveetyone complains about religious establishments it would appear that they're the best things for religion; the Papacy DID manipulate the Bible the achieve their political needs 'ohlol don't worry about it just stick to the old testament for now, we need to kill some peepz.' And Islam is doing the same now however its down to local interpretations of the Quran not centralised ones.

But arguably the Papacy is the body who keeps the happy medium between conservative views and liberal views, and if Muslims had the same structure (obviously for now it would have to be extremely conservative compared to the west) then it would have more control over Islam in general. But then you have Sunnis and Shia's etc

Tldr; Islam needs a caliphate

 

[DaGaffer]

I think the point TDC is making is that just because the book says shit doesn't mean they follow it.

However, as much as eveetyone complains about religious establishments it would appear that they're the best things for religion; the Papacy DID manipulate the Bible the achieve their political needs 'ohlol don't worry about it just stick to the old testament for now, we need to kill some peepz.' And Islam is doing the same now however its down to local interpretations of the Quran not centralised ones.

But arguably the Papacy is the body who keeps the happy medium between conservative views and liberal views, and if Muslims had the same structure (obviously for now it would have to be extremely conservative compared to the west) then it would have more control over Islam in general. But then you have Sunnis and Shia's etc

Tldr; Islam needs a caliphate

That's the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard.

 

[Gwadien]

That's the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard.

Dunno, organised religion isn't necessarily a bad thing, having thousands of different groups saying 'we're right' isn't really useful.

 

[old.user4556]

organised religion isn't necessarily a bad thing

WAAAAAT? Never go full retard dude!

 

[Job]

The words in the books are irrelevant, been adjusted that many times that whatever the original message is has well gone.
Religion mostly teaches our cult is right and other people deserve to die for believing their shit, because the way to get power is to brainwash your idiots to kill their idiots.
Been repeated since the dawn of human consciousness, Turkey is fighting that shit right now.

 

[DaGaffer]

Dunno, organised religion isn't necessarily a bad thing, having thousands of different groups saying 'we're right' isn't really useful.

Organised religions always fragment anyway. When you're dealing with entirely made-up, entirely unprovable bullshit, of course they do (Islam itself was a unified religion until about 20 minutes after Mohammed died). So all you get if you have a Pope is conservatism and an inability to evolve. For all its faults, protestantism (or at lease some versions of it) opened the door to pluralism and freedom of thought; but, lest we forget there were plenty of strands of Christianity that were just as fire and brimstone as the the nastiest interpretations of Islam today. If Islam is going to be something other than the horror show we see today, it needs competition, not monolithic structures (I'm assuming here we're not going to get rid of it altogether). There have been interpretations of Islam in the past (Ahmadiyya would be an example) that have emphasised the pacifistic side of things, so its not impossible.

 

[TdC]

I think the point TDC is making is that just because the book says shit doesn't mean they follow it.

I basically meant that the argument means nothing. Holding up a quote from a religious text and claiming people be more or less retarded because of <quote> is silly in itself. Sadly, if it actually is true that certain Bataclan Theater casualties were tortured -don't get me wrong, it's highly likely, unfortunately- all that means to me is that people get killed when things are taken to extremes. I don't give a hoot what those things are; sky fairies, fear of gingers, pizza debate clubs, all the same to me.

Anyway, DaGaffer said it better than I did.

 

[Job]

planning your European trip.

 

[CorNokZ]

planning your European trip.

"Bad taste" - The Post

 

[Scouse]

Dunno, organised religion isn't necessarily a bad thing, having thousands of different groups saying 'we're right' isn't really useful.

Organised religion is the very definition of 'bad thing' - far from thousands of disparate groups of arseholes all convinced for their rightness (despite being wrong) organisation gives massive power to a group of wrong arseholes and the masses who don't agree with them suffer hugely.

So what if they get stuff done if the stuff they get done is the violent murderous oppression of gays, women and groups that disagree with them or refuse to live by their ethics, the holding back of society when scientific research challenged orthodoxy and general judgy twattery all round?

 

[Lakih]

Religion do a lot of good things in the society too @Scouse It's the extremists (in any religion) that give them a bad rep. But that is true for anti religious extremists too (some displayed in this very thread).

 

[DaGaffer]

Religion do a lot of good things in the society too @Scouse It's the extremists (in any religion) that give them a bad rep. But that is true for anti religious extremists too (some displayed in this very thread).

Except its not true is it? You don't see any atheist suicide bombers.

 

[Scouse]

Religion do a lot of good things in the society too @Scouse

Lots of people do good things for society irrespective of religion.

Religion lays false claim to the ownership of that work and the blinkered adherents of the membership is only too happy about that.

The work gets done anyway - look at how much post-religious Blighty does. And that's without all the terrible baggage of the church.

 

[soze]

Religion is outdated population control and while it exists there will never be peace. Religion gives people who are too weak to gain power by force a chance to control people.

It is a massive shame that I honestly believe Religion needs to disappear. Because I know religious people who have their own beliefs and would never dream of forcing them down anyone's throats. And that is probably true for the overwhelmingly large majority. But while religion is there these morons have something they can use to twist people.

I honestly think the start is banning any form of religion for under 18's. You teach evolution in school and you stop teaching religious education and everything else that points out to kids the differences between them. Then when you are 18 you can make your own mind up. If you go to Church or the Mosque a few times and you like what you hear then you decide that you want to be religious, not your parents or school.

 

[DaGaffer]

Religion is outdated population control and while it exists there will never be peace. Religion gives people who are too weak to gain power by force a chance to control people.

It is a massive shame that I honestly believe Religion needs to disappear. Because I know religious people who have their own beliefs and would never dream of forcing them down anyone's throats. And that is probably true for the overwhelmingly large majority. But while religion is there these morons have something they can use to twist people.

I honestly think the start is banning any form of religion for under 18's. You teach evolution in school and you stop teaching religious education and everything else that points out to kids the differences between them. Then when you are 18 you can make your own mind up. If you go to Church or the Mosque a few times and you like what you hear then you decide that you want to be religious, not your parents or school.

You'll never be able to ban religion for under 18s, but you can certainly ban it in schools. Unfortunately, the one place that already does that...is France.

 

[soze]

You'll never be able to ban religion for under 18s, but you can certainly ban it in schools. Unfortunately, the one place that already does that...is France.

Yeah, you could also ban all organised religions from accepting under 18s in. Unfortunately parents will still be able to indoctrinate their children and it will not stop hate preachers.

 

[Tom]

In this country, we could start by removing Bishops from the House of Lords.

 

[DaGaffer]

Yeah, you could also ban all organised religions from accepting under 18s in. Unfortunately parents will still be able to indoctrinate their children and it will not stop hate preachers.

It would be an extremely difficult thing to enforce; with Thought Police overtones. Part of the problem with a lot of religion is that they've so effectively insinuated themselves with the community that its very difficult to peel religion away; in Islam the local mosque and madrassa is also a community centre; but on the Christian side even innocuous stuff like going to Cubs has a religious underpinning.

 

[Raven]

In this country, we could start by removing Bishops from the House of Lords.

Tiny drop in the ocean. Banning religious schools and the teaching of religion as fact in schools would eliminate the plague of religion for good. Rework child abuse laws to include religious indoctrination while we are at it. It is nothing but enforced mental illness.

 

[DaGaffer]

Tiny drop in the ocean. Banning religious schools and the teaching of religion as fact in schools would eliminate the plague of religion for good. Rework child abuse laws to include religious indoctrination while we are at it. It is nothing but enforced mental illness.

See above. French schools are completely secular. I agree with your sentiment, I'm just not sure it will work the way you think it will.

 

[Job]

Islam is a dying religion, most of it's youth pay no more attention to it than we do turning up to a church wedding and singing songs at a funeral.
But even the non religious can turn to it to release frustration at perceived wrongdoings and use it as a backdrop to justify 'biblical' acts of carnage.
Even if most of the youth reject belief in Islam, if they are badly treated as a group it can be used to bring them together against society and that is what is happening in France, a circle jerk of violence, racism..back to violence..makes French more racist...it goes on.
How do you fix it without passing laws on thought..I dunno.

 

[Gwadien]

Tiny drop in the ocean. Banning religious schools and the teaching of religion as fact in schools would eliminate the plague of religion for good. Rework child abuse laws to include religious indoctrination while we are at it. It is nothing but enforced mental illness.

Religious schools yes, banning teaching of religion in schools is totally different.

I've sat in classes where I've seen Muslim kids literally go 'wow these humans aren't much different to us!'

Slightly off topic, I sat in a lesson where they were doing fertility treatment and they were debating who should get the chance to do it - they all agreed a young gay couple should, and this was in a school with a massive amount of first generation immigrants from Syria/Afghanistan/Iraq - that was amazing.