Outcast classes

[Bigmammas]

I've been playing in Hib for a few months now and it is a fine realm with nice people.

But I can't help posting this thread concerning the fact that some classes are just plain ignored when the want to join a group.

Seems like everywhere in Hib there is this illusion that a group should consist out of 3 tanks, a bard, a druid, a warden, and 2 pb for fast kills (if only oneavailable a second bard or a mana ment)

With tanks i mean heroes,Bms and champs!

So the others are just forced the solo or powerlevel (if they are lucky).

This evening I did a finns group with 2 rangers a warden a champ 2 mana ments, a void eld and a druid (yeah thats right where is the bard?).

I only died once (cause sb was afk and we pulled anyway) but the rangers held the aggro better than any other tank ive seen.

The void eld did massive damage and the specc non specc DOT combo was awesome.

So in the future give the outcast classes a chance (rangers, voidies, ments and our rvr favorite the shade...)

 

[old.Tzeentch]

this has been done to death.

 

[Aeiedil]

*points at tzee*

Nightshades :evade a hell of a lot and hold aggro very well, almost unhittable when combined with warden bubble and buffs and hero's guard and a small shield (best not to get me started on this matter )

Rangers :evade less but still good at aggro-holding, less effective than the heros\champs\bms\shades imo though

Voidies : combined with a manachanter are awesome, manachanter debuffs cold, voideld debuffs energy, that way both aoes do an extra 50%, in effect creating you a third aoer for free

Mana ment : better mana regen than the majority of bards (few spec nurture), but no end regen. as tzee will back up im sure the dot hurts though

always used to be bm's were an outcast class also

 

[VodkaFairy]

Heh, I've noticed the more you specialise for RvR the less wanted you are in PvE.

Druids with alot of nature can't heal very well, and are less wanted.
Heroes / Champs with CS / LW can't hold aggro as well and get hit more than s/s tanks.
Nightshades are just plain useless in PvE.
Rangers are even more useless than nightshades in PvE.
Eldritches that go for void or light are less wanted in PvE but deadly in RvR.

etc :/

I decided not to play my NS because it keeps pissing me off how unwanted you are till level 50. My bard got more group invites in 4 days than my NS in 4 weeks, so I'm sticking with her now. Nice of you to try Aeiedil but it's just a fact people rather invite a s/s hero than a NS to tank. Because I have a NS myself (inactive..) I know NS can tank very well and if possible get two "real" tanks and a rogue but not alot of other people do

 

[squeakyfrog]

First, thanks for everyone in the Fins group last night (early morning even )

The group fell apart just before Relic Raid, and the list holder left for it. 2 of us, a warden and a drood decided to get the group going again. It took ages to find ppl, but we managed to get 2 rangers, 1 mentalist and 1 void eld to join. PM more ppl, but they were either not too bothered or thought our group sux. Then 44 Champ came and we got another mentalist. As Lunarious said, the result was good. Later the champ was replaced with a lvl43 SS hero.

The group nearly split again when someone had to go and one member didn¡¦t want to wait while we trying to find a replacement. (Funny enough, he was the one went for RR earlier) We took ages to find ppl again, and then ended up with 2 wardens, 2 mentalists, 1 ranger, 1 BM, 1 SS hero and 1 lovely voidy. (Oh, list didn't really exist last night, just one person on)

OK, it did take slight longer to kill the mobs without pbaoes, but hey, no one was complaining that tanks (we called them in this group combination) couldn¡¦t hold aggro which causing death and we were happy about xp.

People do spend ages like half an hour or more to form a prefect group in PvE or RvR. When u finally get the hunting spot, after 10 pulls or so, someone wants to leave and group stuck in a difficult place to get replacement in.

My void eld soloed nearly all way to lvl42 (still 42) while my new start warden (lvl44.5 now) has grouped since lvl5. Fins group asks me to join when I am even not on the list. My poor voidi has never been as lucky as my warden.

I don't mind who is in the group, as long as they are the suitable lvls, someone can heal/rez, someone can fight or does some dmgs. When Xp bar goes on the right direction, nice and steady without anyone dying, no greedy players who want to take more than they can chew, and imo that¡¦s a good group.

 

[Aeiedil]

VodkaFairy, take what you said about nightshades in pve back or i shall be forced to post links to old threads btw found out recently i can kill oranges solo unbuffed taking only 1 hit the pookas tend to run away thoguht, makes it hard

 

[Aeiedil]

Oh and btw, my prefered group

2x casters, preferably 2x manachanters, but other than that any aoe casters will do

1x mana regen, meaning mana ment or nurture bard. mana ment preferable, can aoe dot aswell as mr, and also heal as well as bards do (dont think ive ever heard of a mentalism ment)

1x guarding tank (minimum), meaning s/s hero, s/s champ, s/s bm. acts as second tank, or if pulling then first tank

1x warden (bubble, backup healing, third tank)

1x warden\druid (if warden, use synced bubbles and wardens take turns to heal. if druid then druid can heal and warden 1 can tank all the more, the lazy bubblebot)

1x tank (anything that can taunt), perfoms function of puller\first tank, or secondary tank if the guarding tank decides to pull

oh look this leaves another slot. this can be for pretty much anything. druid for more healing, bard for end regen, another caster to speed kills up, any kind of tank to handle adds, am i missing anyone out?

 

[VodkaFairy]

Originally posted by Aeiedil
VodkaFairy, take what you said about nightshades in pve back or i shall be forced to post links to old threads btw found out recently i can kill oranges solo unbuffed taking only 1 hit the pookas tend to run away thoguht, makes it hard

I get down to 20% of my hitpoints before killing an orange mob, so I'd like to know how you can get hit only once..... So solo'ing for me is really slow and grouping is impossible because nobody -looks- for nightshades. And especially when you can't play after 10/11 pm cet. I've seen other nightshades level alot faster than me, so I guess its my problem. Just pisses me off to flush hours and hours of my time through the toilet getting .5 bub solo'ing or none at all trying to group.

 

[Aeiedil]

lol think your the only one? took me forever to reach level 50, and i took a lot of time out to rvr. got to rr4 before i got to 50, unlike a lot of the shades that pl up to 50 by arranging fin groups all the time, or something similar. for the last few levels i was partially in guild groups, but mostly as far as i remember in the pit in coruscating mines soloing yellow after yellow after yellow after yellow. the rr4 allowed me to get ra, including dodger, mastery of pain, dualists reflexes, all of which are passive and up my damage out put and my evasion skills. as for tactics solo :

mob from an aggro patch : dd, run, pa <melle to kill>
mob in non-aggro non-hostile patch : pa, cd, run, re-envenom piercers, pa cd melee etc

also on higher con, do NOT use styles apart from the following :

scorpion, once or twice
diamondback, once if you have cd'd, twice if you missed the cd
hamstring chain

these moves either do not overall effect your defense bonus (hamstring i think reduces, but hte chaind moves increase more), where as most other moves such as garrotte decrease your defesne bonus every time, and so by using just the moves above you get hit less and live longer fights last longer but so do you hope this is of help. in tiight spaces, dd scorpion and evade-chain, dont think you always need to pa, but dont forget poisions they are very nessecary for a shade imo *shade out*

 

[Faeldawn]

Was a fun group this morning, although excess alcohol didnt help when it came to finding my mob ;0)

No pber, only one "true" tank, no bard. For a fins group it was a little unusual, although i would like to thank those who participated, coz they were very patient and we proved that you do not NEED a pb chanter, or a bard to successfully kill fins.

Our menty's and druid did an outstanding job, we even held several 4-mob pulls without fatality.

Tzeen is right, this has been done to death, but the fact is that with a variety of classes, ANY group can work as long as the players are willing to give it a go. We finished up that group with NO druid, NO pbmage, NO bard and only one true tank, and the only death we had was when we pulled with an afk (understandable as it was like 6am).

And as for time spent soloing and fighting to lvl 50, dont even go there ;0)

 

[squeakyfrog]

Originally posted by Faeldawn
Our menty's and druid did an outstanding job, we even held several 4-mob pulls without fatality.

Ooooh...you forgot to mention the NON-AFK lovely warden trying very hard to heal as well

 

[Erekrose]

Originally posted by squeakyfrog

Originally posted by Faeldawn
Our menty's and druid did an outstanding job, we even held several 4-mob pulls without fatality.

Ooooh...you forgot to mention the NON-AFK lovely warden trying very hard to heal as well

Was that the group i was in?

 

[spankya]

Originally posted by old.Tzeentch
this has been done to death.

Yep and still it doesnt change.... shades, rangers & void elds still get put to the back of lists or arent allowed to join. Usual story and it wont change

 

[Faeldawn]

Ooooh...you forgot to mention the NON-AFK lovely warden trying very hard to heal as well [/B][/QUOTE]

The lovely non-afk warden did a gr8 job also, saved my afk ass twice for certain ;0)

 

[elerand]

Originally posted by VodkaFairy
Heh, I've noticed the more you specialise for RvR the less wanted you are in PvE.

Druids with alot of nature can't heal very well, and are less wanted.
Heroes / Champs with CS / LW can't hold aggro as well and get hit more than s/s tanks.
Nightshades are just plain useless in PvE.
Rangers are even more useless than nightshades in PvE.
Eldritches that go for void or light are less wanted in PvE but deadly in RvR.

etc :/

I decided not to play my NS because it keeps pissing me off how unwanted you are till level 50. My bard got more group invites in 4 days than my NS in 4 weeks, so I'm sticking with her now. Nice of you to try Aeiedil but it's just a fact people rather invite a s/s hero than a NS to tank. Because I have a NS myself (inactive..) I
know NS can tank very well and if possible get two "real" tanks and a rogue but not alot of other people do

Ok, I got to say this since I have at least done all the high lvl xp spots, NS are not useless hon, they are very good, I was grpd with 2 NS and a ranger at fins and we chainpulled like mad, good players and a good spec=no probs.

Sadly it's peoples views more than anything else, no one wants to be a charity case sure, think as a realm we HAVE to do more to help our stealthers lvl!

Even BMs are being turned down as tanks cos they don't fit the mould, shows people don't enjoy a challenge and don't actually understand that bm's are better in pve than rvr (coming from someone who loves his bm to bits and plays him all the time), bms lack decent rvr skills in the form of cd styles/dmg, in pve they get aggro very well (which in pb grps is all that really counts) avoid dmg pretty well and since they have more hits than a champ not as sucky as some poorly informed people think, lowe abs and af sure but vs certain mobs it plays out and vs fins we do VERY well

 

[Envenom2]

i think ur problem is this vodka......

ur shade is lvl 41 right? well u wont really get into fins group at that lvl because most ppl are lvl 44+ in a fins group which means less exp if a lvl 41 is there.

when i was expin my shade lvl 40-45 was the hardest lvls to get once i got lvl 45 the last 5 lvls went so quick i could get fins groups because i was the same lvl as most plus i could tank the fins pretty well with shield.

in my whole time at fins i think i died 5 times at lvl 45 +

If you really want that shade stick with it u will get there sooner or later but if u want a boring bard stick with that i know which i would rather get to lvl 50 1st

 

[elerand]

Originally posted by squeakyfrog

Originally posted by Faeldawn
Our menty's and druid did an outstanding job, we even held several 4-mob pulls without fatality.

Ooooh...you forgot to mention the NON-AFK lovely warden trying very hard to heal as well

I'll stand up for myself here, bar taking a bath at about 9am (having been in the grp since about 6am) I love healing in grp and did just fine tanking fins

Actually I enjoy the healing more, like the odd bit of mayhem and having bubble is nice, rarely find me afk for 30 mins plus with my warden, catch the name in my sig and pm for grps

Doh shameless advertising

Surprising how well grps can cope without a cookie cutter grp isn't it

 

[Pempulla]

Originally posted by Envenom2
i think ur problem is this vodka......

ur shade is lvl 41 right? well u wont really get into fins group at that lvl because most ppl are lvl 44+ in a fins group which means less exp if a lvl 41 is there.

when i was expin my shade lvl 40-45 was the hardest lvls to get once i got lvl 45 the last 5 lvls went so quick i could get fins groups because i was the same lvl as most plus i could tank the fins pretty well with shield.

in my whole time at fins i think i died 5 times at lvl 45 +

If you really want that shade stick with it u will get there sooner or later but if u want a boring bard stick with that i know which i would rather get to lvl 50 1st

How does having a lvl41 NS instead e.g. a lvl43 NS lower xp for others in a group where the others are 44+? Admitted a lvl41 NS makes basically a bad fins tank, but that's beside the point. A ranger or NS can very well tank fins, but usually they have to be 1-2 levels higher than a 'true tank' (e.g. hero, champ, BM) would have to be.

Also, you have to face it that fins group's are the way of leveling fast and safely without any real danger, and as such those groups are not formed to offer any kind of a challenge and as such those groups tend to discriminate against all other tanks besides heros, really (scale armor, highest HPs, safest, boring way to level). Sure they can go with a champ or BM, which classes do just as well, if not even sometimes better. NSs and rangers will always have worse armor and less hit points (or either of the two) than any of the above mentioned classes, and thus may make the safe, boring leveling in a fins group less safe.

The most boring, but safest (and as also fastest) fins combo, is always: 3 heros, warden, 2 pbaoe chanters, druid and a bard.

Contrary to popular belief bards usually do heal better than mentalists and they of course can also mezz, shout, even tank sometimes if absolutely necessary. Naturally, a bard can also take a hit or two more if something fails and can get aggro off of the wrong person using lulla. In a safe group though, bard/mentalist should really only concentrate on the mana regen and healing side of the things though and forget about wasting mana on other non-sense.
The tanks of the group should always be the highest level players in the group, warden and chanters can be a level or two lower, druid and bard can be even lower provided that they have good enough heals, buffs and mana regen/pool. This template is really for the most boring, safe but fastest xp group.

Anyway (main point)... what's so boring about a bard ? It is probably one of the most versatile chars in the game. A NS however...

 

[VodkaFairy]

When I solo it takes ages to get a very little bit of exp. Often enough I die and lose everything I gained in an hour.

Grouping is impossible, because everyone is either looking for a healer or they're already full.

And everytime I feel sad about getting rejected 100% of the time people try to cheer me up with 'You'll get to 50 eventually', 'Make your own groups!', 'I'll help you out someday when I'm level 50 myself!'.

Getting to 50 eventually seems impossible to me.
Making my own groups is something I tried, and nobody showed up when they were supposed to, so I spent ages accomplishing *nothing*. As usual.
The few times I actually got good exp was because a friend had a spot free for a leech in the group. No, that didn't make me feel good. No, it almost never hapens.

This all results in a bad mood and poor exp (none, rather).

And yes I like nightshades better than bards, and no I won't play my nightshade unless someone can really HELP me out. I'm not gonna get to level 50 on my own, this game is all about fun and trying to exp with my NS makes me feel bad because the whole fucking realm rejects me when trying to exp.

Edit- You people honestly think I can get into fins group when I can play from 3 to 11 pm cet? And when school starts after next week I can only play from 5 to 6 pm and 8 to 10 pm cet. /cry

 

[Aeiedil]

the thing about solo is to find mobs that you are good against. use catacombs to find mobs that preferably you get a bonus against and they get a penalty against you. you are primarily offensive, so a bonus to attack is preferable to a bonus to defence, for example some level 41 creatures you might be able to kill :

Pierce shade : none preferable :s
Bladeshade : Moss monster (VERY good)

and just in case, some level 40 ones

Pierce shade : none preferable again :\
Bladeshade : (*)Curmudgeon Puggard(*), Grovewood, Greenbark, Moss Monster

Okay :\ nothing much for a level 41 pierce shade really i would advise trying Deamhan Hounds if they are yellow, i know i leveled there a bit

 

[Aeiedil]

grr double-posted

 

[VodkaFairy]

Guess what, I'm a pierce shade!

I really appreciate your help, but I think I'll play my bard Mercuria instead. I think I just don't have enough motivation to level VF to 50, so I'm playing my bard now. Don't get me wrong I really like bards, but VF is more of a char I've worked hard for to build the past few months. Mercuria is just a char that's rushing to 50 without much personality (yet).

 

[Aeiedil]

try the shade again after next patch, the levels 40-45 have been made easier than they are at the moment. the levels 40+ were a pain for me aswell heh took what seemed like forever but then again i did go for frequent troll-hunting sessions at the times when yggdra still had a small population

 

[Envenom2]

you'll get there vodka everyone does in the end just gotta wait till ur time comes i wouldnt give up thou if this is the class u really want dont forget u wont have IP FA soon so i wouldnt consider it as a total loss

 

[Aeiedil]

i dont have ip or fa anyway envenom

 

[VodkaFairy]

I currently am RR2L8, need some RvR once in a while to keep me going

Don't have FA/IP either, just dodger 2 + aug qui 2 + see hidden. If it's easier to get through 40-45 next patch(es) I'll certainly try VF out but at the moment I'm really enjoying my bard. Gaining 1 - 2 levels a day still (lvl 31.8 atm) so I have the feeling I'm actually getting somewhere now And I'm usefull too! Yay!

 

[karlophin]

Originally posted by Aeiedil
VodkaFairy, take what you said about nightshades in pve back or i shall be forced to post links to old threads btw found out recently i can kill oranges solo unbuffed taking only 1 hit the pookas tend to run away thoguht, makes it hard

hehe nice mate, me and tali have been pve bm testing. We can solo kill purp con succubusses unbuffed Its uber

 

[Aeiedil]

shush, im trying to promote nightshades uberness im still working on killing a red con, but i reckon its just a matter of time

 

[VodkaFairy]

I tried to promote NS uberness by just doing a good job in groups, but I have had one or two groups at level 40+ so far it's going a bit slow

 

[squeakyfrog]

Originally posted by VodkaFairy
I tried to promote NS uberness by just doing a good job in groups, but I have had one or two groups at level 40+ so far it's going a bit slow

Don't have a NS myself, so really don't know what skills they have. 2 nights ago, I grouped with 2 NS (one 45 and the other was 42 or so) in DF killing drinkers, had a problem if 3 came, otherwise it was ok. They all did more dmg than my wusse warden

I have been in a "prefect" group, with all the class that the prefect group needs, but, get wiped off very soon, because ppl think we can take harder mobs. I have grouped with "tanks", confused with tank orders, or drood who doesn't want to heal but dot and fight. It all depends really. Try Innis group till 44 or 45, maybe the xp is not good as Fins and slow, but hey, as long as no death, any xp helps, better than soloing I think, at least, not that boring.

Maybe I am wrong, but in RvR group, you might need a NS to spot the stealthers, protect our casters from them or kill enemie¡¦s casters; in the dragon raid, we rely on rangers¡¦ dmg. Everyone needs some help at some stage, so plz don't ignore them.

I plan to lvl my 42 void eld after the next patch when lvling 40-45 becomes less difficult.