Nerf bladeswitching

[belth]

Originally posted by old.chesnor


So that explains why the 3 assassin classes are top of the US RP earners last week !!!!

It is all clear now ! </sarcasm>

Maybe they play a lot... Assassin class players tend to ignore 99% of the PvE aspect after they've gone thru the leveling process and concentrate on RvR...

Oh BTW, don't talk about Thidranki in comparison to real RvR, they're 2 totally different worlds. Characters are even differently specced for BGs, depending on class ofcourse

 

[Zill]

Originally posted by Pin


Dragonfang is not a high damage style (hamstring is about 30% higher), the only thing that makes it great is the stun, so if you're really worried about that, buy purge and get rid of the poisons at the same time.

Considering the problems I'm having I may save up my RA points and go for Purge, or just avoid Infs with DF altogether. And I'm not sure how Hamstring has any reference in this discussion - if you read it's description you'll know why it's pointless. And as I've previously said, I seldom reach Leaper or Rib Seperation (The styles after Hamstring) as they're evaded more than 85 % of the time.

Originally posted by Pin

Talking about Dodger 5 is also rediculous, as that's 34 RSPs alone. All Infs I know would much rather take IP for 23 and stop Dodger at 2 or 3.

Even with Lvl 2 or 3 in Dodger thats 38 - 41 % that's still an impressive ratio and is relatively cheap to acquire.

Originally posted by Pin

Yes, it's now likely that we get opportunity to Dragonfang in most fights, but SBs also get a stun from an evade (2nd style in chain). Also, even if we evade one weapon from an SB we can still be hit by the other, stopping us using DF. But yes, I love the style, it means I win a lot of 1v1 fights.

I take it you're refering to Frosty Gaze (lvl 39 Left Axe style) Unfortunatly for me (until 1.52 patch when I can respec) I do not have this move, however this a medium stun and has a pre-requisite style to execute so there is difference. The only stuns I receive are from CD or BS which are redundant during combat.

Originally posted by Pin

Sure. Mine is 1056 (or 1083 if not using playermade weapons - i.e. not likely), which gives you an extra hit, or two poison ticks. Also, I can guarantee that you are either not capped on con or hits items (I'm not either) and you would be closer to 1300 if you were (so not a great comparison of the difference between the classes).

If I hadn't placed RA pts into Aug Cons i and Toughness i, my hps would only be marginally better than yours. And before I acquired my Epic I had 1066-88 hps give or take swapping items around. My Cons is now currently 132 and I seriously doubt I will be increasing it further - capped or not. So evidently we are not that superior with HPs as you presumed. Besides whats the difference of 100 odd hps compared to being stunned for 9 seconds while being hit repeatidly for 100's of pts of damage.

I'd be happy to see DF with a shorter stun and some build up to it, in line with Frosty Gaze, that would be more fairer and produce a better fight. Othwerwise there is nothing at all that will change my mind that DF is a badly designed style that gives a very unfair advantage.

 

[katt!]

Originally posted by Zilly

Even with Lvl 2 or 3 in Dodger thats 38 - 41 % that's still an impressive ratio and is relatively cheap to acquire.

exactly like shadowblades -_-

I take it you're refering to Frosty Gaze (lvl 39 Left Axe style) Unfortunatly for me (until 1.52 patch when I can respec) I do not have this move, however this a medium stun and has a pre-requisite style to execute so there is difference.

and it is at 39 spec, you choose not to spec for it - you are the only one to blame.

If I hadn't placed RA pts into Aug Cons i and Toughness i, my hps would only be marginally better than yours.

something for nothing, why do you whine?

My Cons is now currently 132 and I seriously doubt I will be increasing it further - capped or not.

you choose to gimp yourself even more - grats.

I'd be happy to see DF with a shorter stun and some build up to it, in line with Frosty Gaze

move your stun style to 50 spec then ok?

Othwerwise there is nothing at all that will change my mind that DF is a badly designed style that gives a very unfair advantage.

replace "DF" with "assassins" and "style" with class, see another statement that should keep you from whining?

 

[Zill]

Kedal, I'll whine/moan/critisise/ as much as I like. If you don't like it then don't bother reading or replying to my posts as you're taking up valuable room with your illiterate jargon.

Even though most of the points you pick on are not attempts by me to whine anyway. I was mearly stating facts and furthermore I am very happy with my class and the way I spec'd.

 

[Haldar]

just a small comparison (sp?)

at 46 i have 763 ws and 1206 hits with capped str(166), con(151) and +hits, had 1102 hits and 680 ws at 43.

my guild m8 has 895 ws with DF axes and full epic armor (dunno about his life)

my infi friend from perc at 43 had 970 hits and 930 ws.

so i suppose that SB's have a slight hp advantage over infs (12% at 43 lvl) and infis has a 36% (at 43) dmg advantage over SB's.

our class-specific RA is useless, compared to vanish.

many words has been spoken about DFang. well, it is really more powerful than our evade stun chain. coz of (1) chain and (2) lesser length stun. i'd be really glad if one of our wpn styles had a such good effect.

2h weapons are now practically useless, coz of new epic armor and removing of 1-hit-stay-hidden kills.

and with the reforming dmg tables our weapon (slash only dmg) will be neutral to alb leather armor and resisted by hib leather.

Only good thing we SB's have is our guaranteed hits with both weapons, thus landing 2 poisons.


Future is not bright for SBs' i fear......

 

[Danya]

Back on the original topic, I'm just going to buy 20 crafted swords and have them venomed up in batches for me so I can go around poisoning people anyway.

 

[old.chesnor]

Quick question to the assassins...is PA blockable/evadable/parryable ?

 

[Danya]

Originally posted by old.chesnor
Quick question to the assassins...is PA blockable/evadable/parryable ?

No. If PA succeeds, it hits or they miss. Level 50s shouldn't miss.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Dannyn

No. If PA succeeds, it hits or they miss. Level 50s shouldn't miss.

Wrong. I have had mine evaded twice before (no, they were not failed attempts), and I have also evaded before.

I have never had one parried or blocked before, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. I have also fumbled 2 of them, which is fecking annoying!

As for 'Level 50s shouldn't miss', I don't really know what you mean. If you mean they shouldn't miss, then errr... everyone misses/gets resisted all the time. If you mean they shouldn't fail an attempt due to not being lined up/too far away/lagging/whatever, then someone needs a reality check.

 

[Danya]

According to mythic you can't get evaded/parried/blocked/BTed when PAing. If you do, that's a bug, report it.
As for shouldn't miss, I mean the hit bonus on PA means that a level 50 shouldn't miss (except if they fumble) if they succeed the style. Obviously if you fail the style due to lag etc. you're likely to miss.

 

[katt!]

Originally posted by Zilly
Even though most of the points you pick on are not attempts by me to whine anyway. I was mearly stating facts and furthermore I am very happy with my class and the way I spec'd.

do some legitimate whine then

you have good points, but you bring up alot of stupid ones as well.

you have to realize dragonfang is at 50 spec in a line. you get one at 39 which is "alot" lower. it should be worse, maybe a bit better than it is now (better +to hit on the evade style+followup?).

 

[Zill]

Originally posted by old.kedal


do some legitimate whine then

you have good points, but you bring up alot of stupid ones as well.

you have to realize dragonfang is at 50 spec in a line. you get one at 39 which is "alot" lower. it should be worse, maybe a bit better than it is now (better +to hit on the evade style+followup?).

I prefer to class my post as a critisism of the game design rather than the term 'whine' which is so cliche'd to anyone who has a concern and wishes to bring it up in public. I accept the fact that the move is here to stay, I simply believe the reasoning of how easy it is to execute it and the stun duration time is unbalanced. I'm not suggesting Infs shouldn't have a style that stuns an opponant - just one that is not so easy to action.

It makes a mockery of the games design where you have to execute styles to move up the chain and use better ones at a higher lvl (like I have to).

 

[belth]

Originally posted by Zilly
It makes a mockery of the games design where you have to execute styles to move up the chain and use better ones at a higher lvl (like I have to).

It's a lvl50 style. It's the only good style in thrust spec-line. Get over it. You wouldn't whine if it was 39 thrust and 6 sec stun.

 

[old.chesnor]

The problem with DragonFang is that it is a 9s stun of an evade. This isn't itself overpowered, but in the hands of a char with Evade VII and bags full of QUI and RAs like Dodger, that is undoubtedly overpowered.

Compare the thrust 50 style to Mid sword or Hammer...they suck or it rocks. You choose.

Also, please remember block/parry even after 1.52 still don't work great in RvR. Evade works like a dream, and assassins not only get Evade VII, but don't have to spec it at all. Tanks etc.. have to spec Parry AND sheild to get any kind of decent chance to block/parry and it still sucks compared to Evade.

With Evade VII and Dodger a 50 assassin will evade 1/3 or more blows. Thats like having armour with a ~30% absorb bonus.

 

[belth]

Originally posted by old.chesnor
The problem with DragonFang is that it is a 9s stun of an evade. This isn't itself overpowered, but in the hands of a char with Evade VII and bags full of QUI and RAs like Dodger, that is undoubtedly overpowered.

Compare the thrust 50 style to Mid sword or Hammer...they suck or it rocks. You choose.

Also, please remember block/parry even after 1.52 still don't work great in RvR. Evade works like a dream, and assassins not only get Evade VII, but don't have to spec it at all. Tanks etc.. have to spec Parry AND sheild to get any kind of decent chance to block/parry and it still sucks compared to Evade.

With Evade VII and Dodger a 50 assassin will evade 1/3 or more blows. Thats like having armour with a ~30% absorb bonus.

Aren't you forgetting something? Leather, the trademark armor of assassins, has 10% abs. Tanks get 34% abs in Alb and 27% in the less "industrial" realms. Also, tanks get inherently higher AF from the better armor (do shift-i on same af leather & chain/plate). On top of that, they can choose to be defensive, we don't.
Casters get 10% abs too, from a spell, but that's negligible, they're not meant to take any hits anyway.

Someone pointed most of that out already, maybe if it starts getting spammed, it'll be understood.

 

[Flimgoblin]

Originally posted by old.chesnor
Evade works like a dream

evade works as well as parry and shield work in one on one fight...

which assassins attacks usually are... so people see assassins evading

noone parrys or blocks in RvR because they're in big group zergs 90% of the time...
if an infiltrator joined the zerg they'd die just as fast, and evade just as little as your tank parries or blocks.

Edit: roll on mythic fixing the thing properly!

 

[belth]

Originally posted by Fingoniel


evade works as well as parry and shield work in one on one fight...

which assassins attacks usually are... so people see assassins evading

noone parrys or blocks in RvR because they're in big group zergs 90% of the time...
if an infiltrator joined the zerg they'd die just as fast, and evade just as little as your tank parries or blocks.

Hear hear!

 

[old.chesnor]

Ask most tanks if they would exchange shield/parry spec lines for free evade to evade 7 @ lvl50. I am sure most would take the base 5% on parry and block, and the 35% evade @ lvl50 and use the 100s of spec points to max out offensive weapon lines. An armsman with evade 7 max pole, maz thrust/crush/slash? A hero specced 50 in cs, slash and lw? Warriors specced to 50 in hammer and sword?

Why should the uber RvR soloing class who is of little PvE use get all their defense free while tanks whose job IS defense in PvE have to spend their points on it?

Then to throw salt in the wounds, infis get possibly the best lvl50 weap style in the game chaining off an evade, while hammer users get a totally useless end of a 3 move chain that chains of a block ?

The only downside of being an assassin at this moment is a)levelling in PvE and b) other assassins. You have no predators (oh, maybe archers once every 30mins) except from each other. In a few months the game will just be a game of stealth in Emain. All the other classes will be relegated to alts.

Fear the stealth zerg!

 

[Flimgoblin]

well duh doubt I'd complain if I got free parry doubt anyone would... that's not the point here.

but if you have 42 in shield you have a fairly high chance to block... in most RvR you don't at all...
in one on one you will.

if you have a 45% evade or a 45% parry chance in zerg rvr it's utterly useless.

if you have it in solo combat it works quite well...

as assassins never zerg, their evade works well in most cases - hence people think it's over powered.


Edit: not sure if you were aiming that at me but I've not said anywhere that I think assassins are perfectly balanced or whatever... I was just disputing the fact that a 40% in evade is any better than a 40% in shield or parry.
Oh yeah, level 50 shield style, long duration stun chains off a block. Level 42 shield style, any time long duration stun

Them's nice.

 

[old.chesnor]

I get the zerg bit.

But the shield styles are a joke. Most tanks will spec 42 to shield JUST for slam, for no other reason. If they had a 9s stun in their primary weapon line that was as easy to bring out as dragonfang is for infis, most tanks wouldn't bother speccing shield.

Also, most tanks only get thier shields out to slam then whip out the uber pole/spear/2h to kill. Barely anyone fights sword and board, 'cept the gimps. So all the time tanks are fighting 2h, the 42 points in shield is totally wasted, can't block unless your'e wearing a shield Meanwhile the only defensive line that works with pole/spear/2h is parry, which will be specced much lower than shield because of the Slam.....So they not only parry less but never block.

Evaders evade. No equipment needed to be wielded, no difficult speccing decisions to be made, no trade offs required.

Also Fingoniel, you are a merc. A gimped class. The reason your class is gimped is locked in the above paragraphs. You have to juggle your speccing between weap/DW/parry/shield. Every one of your lvl50 templates is a compromise.

 

[belth]

Originally posted by old.chesnor
Ask most tanks if they would exchange shield/parry spec lines for free evade to evade 7 @ lvl50. I am sure most would take the base 5% on parry and block, and the 35% evade @ lvl50 and use the 100s of spec points to max out offensive weapon lines. An armsman with evade 7 max pole, maz thrust/crush/slash? A hero specced 50 in cs, slash and lw? Warriors specced to 50 in hammer and sword?

Geez you don't think it thru do you? Get evade7, dress in leather and lose all specable defense, besides ability to use small shields. You DON'T get 5% chance to parry. Also, since you're a tank, you don't get stealth/cs/envenom/dw. That leaves you with base weapon-type and 2-h/pole. It also leaves you with 1.5 spec-points or even worse, 1.0. Will most tanks take that deal?

Get over it chesbore, you lose some you gain some.

 

[Flimgoblin]

Originally posted by old.chesnor


Also, most tanks only get thier shields out to slam then whip out the uber pole/spear/2h to kill. Barely anyone fights sword and board, 'cept the gimps. So all the time tanks are fighting 2h, the 42 points in shield is totally wasted, can't block unless your'e wearing a shield Meanwhile the only defensive line that works with pole/spear/2h is parry, which will be specced much lower than shield because of the Slam.....So they not only parry less but never block.

Also Fingoniel, you are a merc. A gimped class. The reason your class is gimped is locked in the above paragraphs. You have to juggle your speccing between weap/DW/parry/shield. Every one of your lvl50 templates is a compromise.

Tip: don't wield two handers against the assasinss - they evade one shot and you're gone for 5seconds.
Take a shield and sword and nibble them to death.

Mercs ain't so bad... well no worse than any other tank (so )

And I'll get you with my creme egg mcflurry

 

[old.chesnor]

Originally posted by belth


Geez you don't think it thru do you? Get evade7, dress in leather and lose all specable defense, besides ability to use small shields. You DON'T get 5% chance to parry. Also, since you're a tank, you don't get stealth/cs/envenom/dw. That leaves you with base weapon-type and 2-h/pole. It also leaves you with 1.5 spec-points or even worse, 1.0. Will most tanks take that deal?

Get over it chesbore, you lose some you gain some.

Don't understand that, sorry.

I know my dorf warrior would swap shield AND parry for evade 7. In fact I'd burn my shield today, as long as you give me a 9s stun style of an evade, of course.

Like to see an infi get anywhere close to taking me down then.

 

[Talifer]

I think Zilly has a good point, I don't think he's whining just because his opinion differs from these high level infiltrators doesn't make it a whine.

Dragon Fang is overpowered in the hands of an infiltrator, likely due to Mythic lack of foresight, it's probably balanced in the hands of a Merc with Evade I but Evade VII with dodger? Come on that's too much.

What most of these infiltrators don't seem to have mentioned, either because they are trying to hide it, or because they haven't even worked it out by the time they've hit 50, is that not only do you get a 9 second stun, but because the infiltrator is a fast attack class you get 3 to 4 free Dragon Fangs after the first reaction style.

Player A attacks you with his sword
You Evade
You perform Dragon Fang
Player A is stunned
You perform Dragon Fang
Player A cannot move
You perform Dragon Fang
Player A cannot move
You perform Dragon Fang
Player A cannot move
You perform Dragon Fang
Player A cannot move
Player A attacks you with his sword

The multiple stuns wont do a thing, but dragon fang has a high to hit bonus and a medium damage bonus, reaction styles generally do more damage because they require an opening move but the infiltrator is getting some serious extra damage here completely free of charge. Not to mention he could add any other evade reaction styles he might have in the mix.

Talifer

 

[kale]

i tell you what chesnor why don't mythic just nerf all the classes you dont play then you'll be happy eh? i have never heard so much slagging off of classes. The inf is NOT overpowered, its getting to where mythic wants it to be (read the patch notes since v1.35), they are now concentrating on other classes weakness'/balancing etc... just get over it m8

 

[kale]

Originally posted by Talifer
Dragon Fang is overpowered in the hands of an infiltrator, likely due to Mythic lack of foresight, it's probably balanced in the hands of a Merc with Evade I but Evade VII with dodger? Come on that's too much.

its suppose to be good, its a lvl 50 style! and if infs are spec'ing dodger then they aint getting IP, you seem to forget to get high realm abilities takes alot of dedication to earn the RA points. why shouldn't we be rewarded?

The multiple stuns wont do a thing, but dragon fang has a high to hit bonus and a medium damage bonus, reaction styles generally do more damage because they require an opening move but the infiltrator is getting some serious extra damage here completely free of charge. Not to mention he could add any other evade reaction styles he might have in the mix.

you again seem to forget an infs primary attack is PA/CD/SS, if this chain is successfull and 95% of CD's are, then DragonFang wont stack another stun until the fight is long over. The only use DF has is if you miss a PA or decide to tank an enemy, in which case the odds are against infs! also using DF when CD has already been used is silly, HS/Leaper/RS/Ripper have higher bonuses.

 

[Danya]

Talifer, there are exactly 2 evade moves in thrust. Ratfang at level 4 (short stun) and dragon fang (long stun). Ratfang does chain into wolftooth (10, snare) and lionfang (34, heavy bleed) though. Of all those styles only DF and LF are really worth the endurance cost though, RF and WT do crap damage and the snare off WT isn't anything special.
Also bear in mind thrust has probably the worst anytime moves in the game as a line. You have puncture (light bleed) at level 6 chaining to bloody dance (15, med bleed) or lunge (21, damage). Puncture sucks loads of end, and BD/lunge aren't exactly cheap either. Puncture also does arse all damage. Then there's the tranquilze (18) / wyvernfang (44) chain. Tranquilize is junk for RvR as it's a detaunt (i.e. no bonus damage), only worth it to get in WF for the damage and snare. And even that's not particularly good, there's a bit of benefit in that it gives defensive bonuses on both moves, but the damage is not good.

 

[Tranquil-]

"Don't understand that, sorry.

I know my dorf warrior would swap shield AND parry for evade 7. In fact I'd burn my shield today, as long as you give me a 9s stun style of an evade, of course.

Like to see an infi get anywhere close to taking me down then."

--
Chesnor flames all classes that might be good against whatever class he plays. Seems so atleast. He forgets that you CAN'T do direct comparisons between classes in DAoC. Because no class is supposed to do the exact same thing as the other. And what the hell will the whining he does do? Not anything good that's for sure. I wonder why he doesn't go after the obviously overpowered Healers? Look at the pac line, wtf is that about? Pac is an ENTIRE speccline that is overpowered, but since it doesn't actually KILL anyone he choses to ignore that. Oh... that's right, Chesnor has actually played one of those... Chesnor seems to me to be one of those vn board whiners that only look at what's _currently_ killing people. A troll. Chesnor go whine about some underpowered classes instead, try to use your ability to attract attention for their good instead. (wonder why he isn't attacking any of the other also obviously overpowered classes? A rogue fetish perhaps?) Oh my, I'll quit the flaming now.

 

[old.chesnor]

Nah Kale. Not every class. Just yours Like I've said before I'm not partisan about any one class. I don't solely play just one class, and I play this game lots. I played a pre-nerf Smite Cleric...is it overpowered ? Yes. I play a full PAC healer, is mezz overpowered? Yes.


I don't give a flying f*ck if people think I'm a twat if I moan about overpowered classes. I just believe this game will be better if we tone down the uber classes and give some loving to the gimped ones. So I cry nerf. Nerf clerics(done), nerf mezz(done), nerf archers(done) and NERF INFILTRATORS(coming your way soon).

I just offer my opinion here. If you don't like it, fine.

 

[old.chesnor]

stfu Tranquil. Your'e just bitter 'cos archers got nerfed. And you deserved it....