Necromancer

[quinthar]

Originally posted by Sharp Thing
learn to read, he said ti will stop nuking as soon as it gets dmged, be it by mellee hit, an ae, a gtae, whatever, it wont nuke till its fully healed and even then there are times it wont cast

I can read reasonably well actually. The issues I have here is with people saying Chanter pets are totally differant which is a pile of shit, now if you disagree then tough, that fact Mythic havent removec it from Chanter pets only suggests one thing to me, Its not that they cant, its that they wont.

The Necro WONT continue to cast if it get hits by GTAOE or melee, granted I dont have to heal it, I might have to wait 6 secs or so then start to recast.

So where was the fundamental differant between pets again??

 

[hotrat]

ice wizard has 2kinds of DD's and fire wiz only one, so they are equell in grps, just look at what stekeltje used to do at tanglers. the main reason would be more like; "im a fire wizard, i get a cool bolt and i can play with fire, wow!"

LOL 2 types of dd does not make them better than one ! fire wizard is a lot better than a ice wiz in a group if the group isn't doing pbae.

An Ice Wizzie can nuke for 179.5 damage, with snare on that nuke. That is the speclined nuke, so its damage wont variate.
They can also before that debuff the target with another nuke.

What can chanter do. They can stun, debuff, and then nuke a baseline nuke, in which line most dont spec, at least not high enough for the damage to stick to max. Also, you got no snare on this nuke (but a pet with snarenuke, however, that has nothing to do with the mana-line itself, and thats what we are discussing.

What Pin said
Ice debuff sucks, would be so much better if it did 0 damage but was 50% debuff. I have played a caba with the first body debuff and only about 17 in body, he lifedrains for a lot more damage than my caba who has 28 in body, debuffs totally rule, your variance will be max of around 100, but who cares when your doign 400-500. My body nukes on my caba or my sorc are lucky to go over 200! Raistlin does around 250 if group has resist buffs.

Debuffs tottally own except their duration is too short, i was tempted to make a body (matter debuff) matter sorc (matter DoT and snare nuke) with high Wild Arcana (crit debuff and DoT) but debuff is body type so will last 10 seconds max which sux

As for ice wiz having ae nuke debuff to improve pbae, ROFL if you gonna pbae you haven't got time to cast a 3 seconds ae nuke then start pbaeing, you get more damage from starting with a pbae, you would need about 5 wizzies and 3 complete pbae's to make debuffing worth it.
200 then 600 600 or
500 500 500?
Chanter pbae is best because of the debuff allowing for a nice ranged nuke, with a snaring pet and a stun and a fast pbae as well.

 

[Amadon]

Originally posted by Pin
Then (as you said) you've just stunned the target, so short of purge he can't do FA to stop you nuking him to crap, but an ice wiz will have only snared the target, so he's still coming at you with taunt shouts or whatever to stop the nukes.

k to get that stun off, that's 2 casts, roughly 5 seconds, standing still, with everything and it's dog interrupting you...

Hib mages spec mana FOR pbaoe, because it's in such high demand for lvling. We don't spec it for the debuffs, or disease, or snare DD, or pet. Those are bonuses but not what attracts people to the line. Also in RvR pbaoe is pretty much the only decent damage spell left in the game.

 

[quinthar]

Originally posted by hiban
lol! I love u guys, i swear to God...
Thats why i said: "as said millions of times now, the chanter pet stops nuking and goes melee once it gets hit/nuked"

Now its said 1 million and 3 times?

And how do u make it go melee? by letting i get hit? Or letting it nuke, and put on passive and then defensive when mob hits? or is there a /spells off-melee on in the "pet screen"? Missed that one on my chanter

I think I said if I want it to melee I let it go...I'll speak slower next time.

Actually I have them on my QB.

So whats the diff again between a necro pet going into melee mode when it gets melee'd or being unable to cast when it gets hit by GTAOE??

Stop trying to tell us your pets are totally differant, Necros pets are bound by far more restrictions than chanter pets full stop. as for combat, considering all our dmg is done through the pet and 90% of it is breakable casts.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Amadon
YES PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GIVE ME SOMETHING USEFUL AGAINST TANKS!!!!!!!!!!

aye.. 9 sec lasts 3 seconds, which is .5 seconds longer than it takes to cast.. insta stun would at least give you 1 more cast

Okay, so stun is useless against MAIN tanks (with access to determination). But stun is certainly not useless against those casters, hybrids and support that everyone knows you are supposed to take out of action early.

OTOH, a root does feck all against them. They just stand there and continue nuking/healing, etc, until the root is broken and then run away a bit.


Both forms are useful in the right circumstances against the right targets.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Amadon
k to get that stun off, that's 2 casts, roughly 5 seconds, standing still, with everything and it's dog interrupting you...

Hib mages spec mana FOR pbaoe, because it's in such high demand for lvling. We don't spec it for the debuffs, or disease, or snare DD, or pet. Those are bonuses but not what attracts people to the line. Also in RvR pbaoe is pretty much the only decent damage spell left in the game.

No, you shouldn't be using stun against every target. You shouldn't be using stun as an opener for everyone you are going to nuke.

There is really no point in casting stun against someone that's no immediate threat, just debuff, nuke, nuke, etc.

If the guy is gonna get to you and there's no tank to slam, then QC a stun, finish with a pbae/run away and let someone else deal with him, or whatever.

 

[old.Nol]

Originally posted by Puppetmistress
After a heat-debuff I am sure it's up to 8 seconds on my theurg. Which all chanters have, since all chanters are mana (90%).

how long do you think that would take?

 

[Amadon]

Originally posted by Pin
Okay, so stun is useless against MAIN tanks (with access to determination). But stun is certainly not useless against those casters, hybrids and support that everyone knows you are supposed to take out of action early.

OTOH, a root does feck all against them. They just atnd there and continue nuking/healing, etc.


Both forms are useful in the right circumstances against the right targets.

stun is useless against any tanks tbh, against support classes and mages, you're better off nuking them since that is just as effective in rendering them useless thanks to interrupts.

Stunning a caster is pointless, because you can kill him very quickly, most times I can do it before the caster gets a qc off, or the enemy caster has already used qc.

Stunning a healer may be more useful in that it prevents him using his insta's for 9 seconds. But given that a mana chanter has to debuff and stun, standing still for 5 seconds, to get that 9 sec stun on a healer, and given how very very easily casters can be killed or interrupted (he can't qc both debuff and stun...), it's nigh on impossible to get that off on a healer (healer's stand at the back of the lines, so a chanter standing still for 5 seconds is dead meat to enemy tanks). OK, working together, a mana chanter who debuffs a healing class and another caster who assists and stuns the healer is pretty effective, but I can't see how it's overpowered that two casters have to work together to disable one enemy from using his instas for 9 seconds, when both casters have to get pretty close to the enemy tanks (assuming the healer isn't leading the charge ).

Hib casters die most of the time to enemy tanks, because we have no way of stopping them. Because of that, I would without question take a root over a 9 second-subject-to-resists-and-determination stun.

 

[old.Nol]

This post started off about necro's and there LOS, now it's about chanters. This enchanter & baseline stun debate has a million other threads to whine in.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Amadon
...standing still for 5 seconds, to get that 9 sec stun on a healer....

you really need to get some +dex gear then.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by old.Nol
This enchanter & baseline stun debate has a million other threads to whine in.

So does the Necro LOS

 

[Amadon]

Originally posted by Pin
No, you shouldn't be using stun against every target. You shouldn't be using stun as an opener for everyone you are going to nuke.

yeh and I don't, in fact I don't use it at all.. see below

There is really no point in casting stun against someone that's no immediate threat, just debuff, nuke, nuke, etc.

yep

If the guy is gonna get to you and there's no tank to slam, then QC a stun, finish with a pbae/run away and let someone else deal with him, or whatever.

ok so tell me.. who's going to get to me? an enemy caster? an enemy support class?
or
an enemy tank?
which is by far the most likely of these?

ok, so we've now limited the usefulness of stun down to enemy tanks (because by your post you stated that it's not really useful on anyone not getting to you, and only tanks are really going to bother getting to you)

qc stun + pbaoe is stupid, 95% of the time you'll be interrupted for 2 seconds into the stun (thanks Mythic), and then you'll be lucky to get a pbaoe off before the stun wears off, u're better off qc pbaoe (you will not get 2 pbaoes off before the stun wears off against anyone with decent resists, tried and test countless times)

using qc stun to run away.. umm.. explain how that's better than using qc root to run away?

 

[Amadon]

Originally posted by Pin
you really need to get some +dex gear then.

thanks for that usefil information.. show me what items will get me more than +75 dex pls

 

[old.Nol]

Originally posted by Pin
So does the Necro LOS

So stick to the topic then, it's right up the middle, Necro LOS.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by old.Nol
So stick to the topic then, it's right up the middle, Necro LOS.

I only replied to posts made earlier. Not my fault if they had already wandered from original topic.

 

[old.Nol]

well you are getting the opportunity now, because we have dragged the topic back to necro LOS.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Amadon
thanks for that usefil information.. show me what items will get me more than +75 dex pls

Well, if you have +75 from items, +23 from levelling on a base of 75/80 with maybe 10 added you are not going anywhere near 5 seconds to debuff and stun. (+ aug dex and dex buffs)

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Amadon
ok so tell me.. who's going to get to me? an enemy caster? an enemy support class?
or
an enemy tank?
which is by far the most likely of these?

Well, you've forgotted assassins and hybrids.

I know that my Reaver would be charging at you, with insta dots (1500 range) and lifetaps (1000 range) and PBAE pulses (350 range) to interrupt you, but he can't buy determination. Which is better against him stun or root?

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by old.Nol
well you are getting the opportunity now, because we have dragged the topic back to necro LOS.

Okay, drag it back to Necro LOS if you wish. Take it back to whining about something that goes away in ~2 weeks anyway.

 

[Amadon]

Originally posted by Pin
Well, if you have +75 from items, +23 from levelling on a base of 75/80 with maybe 10 added you are not going anywhere near 5 seconds to debuff and stun. (+ aug dex and dex buffs)

i'm not a chanter, but i'll time my stun tonight when i get on

it's pretty much irrelevant to the point tho, even standing still for 3 sec (assuming u manage to cast 2 spells at 1.5 sec), u're still pretty much dead if someone's running at you

 

[Amadon]

Originally posted by Pin
Well, you've forgotted assassins and hybrids.

I know that my Reaver would be charging at you, with insta dots (1500 range) and lifetaps (1000 range) and PBAE pulses (350 range) to interrupt you, but he can't buy determination. Which is better against him stun or root?

with stun:
cast stun, give you the benefit of the doubt and say it lasts 5 seconds, that gives me enough time to maybe sprint out of range of your dots, of course i'm useless then because the moment u get in range of my dd (1500 range), u can continue interrupting me with your insta dots (what's the timer on them btw?)
there is no chance in hell that i'll drop you in 5 seconds unless u're on 25% health, in fact the chances of me dropping you in 9 seconds is pretty slim too.
whatever i do with stun, i couldn't get away from you, crits on my snare DD might help since you don't have any determination, but stun wouldn't help much at all

with root:
qc root, run out of range of your lifetap and dd's, look for a class I can kill, like a greycon or another caster, and hope like hell some tank feels like slamming you before the root wears off and you kill me.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Amadon
with stun:
cast stun, give you the benefit of the doubt and say it lasts 5 seconds, that gives me enough time to maybe sprint out of range of your dots, of course i'm useless then because the moment u get in range of my dd (1500 range), u can continue interrupting me with your insta dots (what's the timer on them btw?)
there is no chance in hell that i'll drop you in 5 seconds unless u're on 25% health, in fact the chances of me dropping you in 9 seconds is pretty slim too.
whatever i do with stun, i couldn't get away from you, crits on my snare DD might help since you don't have any determination, but stun wouldn't help much at all

with root:
qc root, run out of range of your lifetap and dd's, look for a class I can kill, like a greycon or another caster, and hope like hell some tank feels like slamming you before the root wears off and you kill me.

Well, unless I'm grouped with a Friar stun will last 6 secs, which is 3 nukes.... And why is it okay to claim that you are useless after stun cos you just run out of range of my dots, but can't do anything, but then claim that with a root you'd be happy to run away and gank some grey? (even though I'm still able to use dots and lifetaps as you are running away).


Anyway, it's clear that you're feeling a bit down on your caster. Go roll an alt

 

[Tigerius]

So you think that running 1500 units and hopefully picking a new target there without having someone pick you as a new target is a more viable option then to atleast get 5secs straight up casting and then maybe getting a groupmate to do the killshot? IMO all that running is alot of time better spent casting.

Regarding chanter damage variation, try speccing 28 Light, adding 11 from items and realmrank on top of that and I'd be much suprised if you see any real variation.

Regarding damage add baseline: The spell has already been nerfed quite heavily and in the end it's a damage add, does alot of good in PvE but in RvR it isn't some kind of tool that we should learn to use it's merely a low increase in tank damage output, unlikely to make a difference in group vs group combat. But by all means, do whine at the only thing Albion has that you don't, it's a fun change and usually quite funny to see

 

[Amadon]

Originally posted by Pin
Well, unless I'm grouped with a Friar stun will last 6 secs, which is 3 nukes....

lose 2 seconds to interrupts, 2 nukes

And why is it okay to claim that you are useless after stun cos you just run out of range of my dots, but can't do anything, but then claim that with a root you'd be happy to run away and gank some grey? (even though I'm still able to use dots and lifetaps as you are running away).

i can run out of range of your dots and LT's with root, and stay out of range for 20 secs or until someone breaks the root, with stun i can just barely get out of range before it wears off, and i can't stay out of range (well maybe if i sprint and the bard stays alive long enough and i can run in circles around him etc..)

Anyway, it's clear that you're feeling a bit down on your caster. Go roll an alt

k

 

[Amadon]

Originally posted by Tigerius
So you think that running 1500 units and hopefully picking a new target there without having someone pick you as a new target is a more viable option then to atleast get 5secs straight up casting and then maybe getting a groupmate to do the killshot? IMO all that running is alot of time better spent casting.

i think that stun is useless for both offense and defense except in very rare occassions, and i think that root is a much more useful form of defense than stun for hib casters, and i would take a root over the stun we have any day.

 

[bracken_woodman]

7 pages and still going... shouldn't we just put this baby to bed until the patch ?


Edit: 8 pages now

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by bracken_woodman
7 pages and still going... shouldn't we just put this baby to bed until the patch ?


Edit: 8 pages now

Change your settings. I'm still on page 5

 

[hotrat]

Hib casters die most of the time to enemy tanks, because we have no way of stopping them. Because of that, I would without question take a root over a 9 second-subject-to-resists-and-determination stun.

Its quite rare to have time to qc root, i find it a lot safer to run as a tank approaches you, especially if its a zerker, qc root = 2 hits from zerker = dead mage, at least if u run the zerker will chase and is effectively out of the fight for a bit, then when he stops chasing you can root, or stun nuke nuke (which is better?).
Against a pure tank you gotta be careful of slam, interupts QC of course and makes you very vulnerable. Again hibs more often have 6 sec pbt so slam is prolly not such a worry as its absorbed.
Run or root its a gamble also dont forget resists.

 

[Tigerius]

Just got 3 shotted by a chanter, 29% heat. Stunned me first, THEN debuffed, then got 3 nukes in before stun wore off so I could insta. 590 was his damage cap on all 3.

Nothing new of course, just a good "out of the blue" example of how much bs you guys spit out

 

[Amadon]

Originally posted by Tigerius
...29% heat....

nuff said
forget your resist buffs?

I drool for those so-very-few enemies I come across who have only 29% of any magic resists.

if you want, I'll take screenshots everytime I cast a stun and I'm killed 3 seconds later by whoever I stunned, only problem is finding webspace for all of them.