Mythics new way to make up for imbalances?

[Divinia]

After reading around all classes latest TL reports and posts done by some TL's and also mythics feedback it seems like many balance issues of certain classes is getting fixed trough Masterlevels and Artifacts existing in ToA.

So instead of you havign a viable class at lets say lvl 50 RR5, you have to add an insane amount of pve and also RL money to buy the expansion.

Or is it only me who got the feeling of mythic using this way to make up for some classes disadvantages? It feels pretty poor in my opinion that they cant make any real balance/boosting of some classes :/

And we have also seen the amount of "class changes" decreasing with the patch notes the last months..

is it anyone else with the same view of this as me or is it just rubberish? oO

PS. If you dont plan to post anything of worth, dont bother DS.

 

[rure_]

for mythic and goa : money > player satisfaction.

 

[Amadon]

I think Mackey pretty much stated as much in the Chanter or Eldritch TL feedback, saying in response to the issues of high resists, power consumption, interruptions and lack of surviveability that they haven't seen the full impact of TOA yet and that TOA should address them. Or perhaps it was one of the TL's.. I hope I'll be able to quit for good when TOA arrives, I think Mythic have ignored too many classes for far too long, and I really don't want to spend hours on end on all my chars just to be viable in RvR with them again.

 

[Pandemic]

Originally posted by Amadon
I think Mackey pretty much stated as much in the Chanter or Eldritch TL feedback, saying in response to the issues of high resists, power consumption, interruptions and lack of surviveability that they haven't seen the full impact of TOA yet and that TOA should address them. Or perhaps it was one of the TL's.. I hope I'll be able to quit for good when TOA arrives, I think Mythic have ignored too many classes for far too long, and I really don't want to spend hours on end on all my chars just to be viable in RvR with them again.

i got killed yesterday trying to solo an eldritch he killed me very easily long before i could even get into range to hit him. i had max resists and some 2500 hp's. he didnt do any crits or resist debuff me. thats not a to bad class mate.

 

[Asty]

Originally posted by Pandemic
i got killed yesterday trying to solo an eldritch he killed me very easily long before i could even get into range to hit him. i had max resists and some 2500 hp's. he didnt do any crits or resist debuff me. thats not a to bad class mate.

That doesn't really tell anything, sure casters can be fine at soloing but grouping is another thing. But yes, eldy is not a bad class.

 

[Amadon]

Originally posted by Pandemic
i got killed yesterday trying to solo an eldritch he killed me very easily long before i could even get into range to hit him. i had max resists and some 2500 hp's. he didnt do any crits or resist debuff me. thats not a to bad class mate.

If all my fights were solo vs solo tanks then I wouldn't have a problem, unfortunately they're not and you know it.
If casters have the range advantage and you don't have resist buffs, then they're fine with interrupts as they are and low surviveability etc, however with speed 6, support chars having similar or further ranged interrupts, they're not fine as they are.
You can try use the argument of DH, but unfortunately not all casters can run in such high RR groups.
The problem with casters is how easily they can be negated compared to melee, interrupts is one of the biggest issues with that.
Solo is not really of a concern to me since very little RvR nowadays is solo.

As far as casters go, I'm lucky to have 2 of the best in the game. Casters in general however are not fine.

 

[Pandemic]

mm i'd say fg mids that i am in against a fg hib pbaoe grp we win/lose about 50/50 that seems pretty well balanced to me. obviously its gonna vary but it averages out about right

 

[cjkaceBM]

The issue really is how to fix it all though?

Do you balance for 1 Vs 1, 8 Vs 8 or 32 vs 32?

The only true way to achieve balance is to make every class have it's exact equal in the opposite realm.

ie

Bard = Skald = Minstrel
Blademaster = Mercenary = Berzerker

etc

Remove resists except base armour resist and castable by certain classes.

Cap all damage so that nobody can be 1 shot.

Remove stun except for those that spec shield.

Give all mages a defensive stun - when cast mage cannot attack - make it instant so it is used only for escape.

Remove snare except for light tanks.

Remove de-buffs except for hybrids.

Remove /assist.

There are lots of options but most would involve a complete re-working of DAoC which would be too time consuming and expensive for Mythic. They are using the easy route - add extra bits, make more money, give people so many choices that if they are gimped it's because they made the wrong choice.

Personally I would like a total re-vamp of the Realm Abilities. When I first heard the term, my immediate thought was "wow cool, I can gain abilities that my other realm mates have" for example the ability to add poison, have stealth etc etc.

I realise some of the ideas above will cause flames from others but hey ho thats BW for you but it is just my opinion and just because it differs from yours doesn't necessarily make it wrong.

 

[Amadon]

Originally posted by Pandemic
mm i'd say fg mids that i am in against a fg hib pbaoe grp we win/lose about 50/50 that seems pretty well balanced to me. obviously its gonna vary but it averages out about right

so casters are balanced because groups with arguably the only 2 viable damage dealing caster speclines in the game in them can win 50% of fights on average vs an average tank group?

no offense intended to you or to BC, but I don't find your support particularly good at interrupting - maybe I've just been very lucky whenever I've met BC groups but I very rarely struggle with interruptions against them, compared to other well known guilds.

I can tell you what to do to negate casters, can you tell me what to do to negate the dual wielding melee assist train?

The tools against casters are far more effective than against melee, luckily the people that use all those tools are not that common yet. However the tools provided by Mythic make me feel the caster/melee balance is not right, combined with the almost complete lack of specline nukers in rvr anymore. I do however feel that the game is more balanced now than it has been in the past, but the balance favours melee too much imo, and Mythic are using TOA to try change that (with +castspeed, MR fields etc).

 

[Pandemic]

not bad ideas those i especially like the cap on damage - with 3 of almost anything on assist u will 1 shot kill and thats not really much fun

 

[Pandemic]

Originally posted by Amadon
so casters are balanced because groups with arguably the only 2 viable damage dealing caster speclines in the game in them can win 50% of fights on average vs an average tank group?

no offense intended to you or to BC, but I don't find your support particularly good at interrupting - maybe I've just been very lucky whenever I've met BC groups but I very rarely struggle with interruptions against them, compared to other well known guilds.

I can tell you what to do to negate casters, can you tell me what to do to negate the dual wielding melee assist train?

The tools against casters are far more effective than against melee, luckily the people that use all those tools are not that common yet. However the tools provided by Mythic make me feel the caster/melee balance is not right, combined with the almost complete lack of specline nukers in rvr anymore. I do however feel that the game is more balanced now than it has been in the past, but the balance favours melee too much imo, and Mythic are using TOA to try change that (with +castspeed, MR fields etc).

well thats exactly what i said ? an average hib pbaoe grp vs an average mid tank grp results in a 50/50 win/loss. the high rr mid and hib rvr guilds will win more respectively and the lower rr from each side will lose more. but in my experience it averages out about right. hibs have better casters mids have better tanks so it averages out roughly ok. yeah ur gonna get some extremes of both and that puts people off saying its totally unbalanced but i dont think it is.

 

[cjkaceBM]

The cap on damage is to stop the nerfs and instant changes.

If berzerkers had only ever been able to hit for 400 at a time they wouldn't have been nerfed.

If you had say 100 damage per second delay and the slowest weapon was 5.0s then the max damage would be 500. Stop +quick from speeding up weapon swing and only have it for evade, make haste lower the damage properly, make dual wielders have an average weapon speed of MH + OH / 2, and you get a far truer system.

Make endurance reliant on weapon weight and strength. So if you create a character that you want to spec to use a slow weapon but they have poor strength they burn endurance faster.

This creates far more options, and therefore cookie cutter specs start to disappear.

 

[old.Talivar]

Good ideas CJ and i think fotm/cookie cutter specs are whats really ruining daoc.Ppl only getting good groups if u a fotm spec/class ect completly destroys all variety and lets face it who wants to just eb a carbon copy of every1 else.

 

[Pandemic]

i've wondered what it would be like splitting up rvr areas into optional rr lines - like areas where only those of rr1-4 can go, rr5-7, 8-10 (although there would still be an area where any rr can go etc). would stop a rr9-10 fg slaughtering loads of lower rr grps if those lower rr grps chose not to go to the open zone

 

[cjkaceBM]

Well what do Realm Ranks really show?

Experience (time) fighting for your realm against another realm.

So lets change weaponskill. How much weaponskill you have no longer affects damage, it affects how often you actually hit.

Give everybody 40% base chance to hit an opponent.
Every extra point = .5% extra chance

Lvl 1 = 40.5%
Lvl 10 = 45%
Lvl 50 = 60%
Lvl 50 + RR10 = 65%

Make styles add an extra % per style

Anytime style adds 5%
Reactionary adds 10%
Positional (see below)

Your positon relative to another character should also affect your chance to hit.

Face to Face = 0
Side of Opponent = 10%
Rear of Opponent = 25%

So lets say you are 50 + RR10

Standing face to face with someone and using an anytime style gives you a 70% chance to hit.

Standing to the side of opponent using an anytime adds a further 10% giving 80% chance to hit.

Standing behind someone using an anytime style adds 25% giving a mximum of 95% chance to hit.

Give positional styles extra affects, pierce = bleeds (hitting an artery etc), blades = snare (cutting tendons), blunt = stun (hitting the head).

This would give far more diverse battles. If you are trying to kill a groups healer and someone starts hitting you from behind then realistically you have no choice but to turn and fight them.

How would you create a similar system for mages though?

 

[Sichama]

Besides ToA that although initially stated that as an expansion it wouldn't change RvR the but in the end it sure will, the frontiers expansion also will change a ton of stuff.

In about a year from now DAoC will be quite different as a game, but to actually hope for perfect balance is obviously wrong as it is imposible to happen.

 

[Divinia]

This thread was not really about balance.. rather about some classes lacking stuff, having far inferoir abilities while their realms counterparts is 10x times better etc..

Dont want mirrorimages, but i really dont like mythic adding an artifact summonable harp so classes can be able to play all their songs w/o beeing limited to interface etc.


and about Cjkace's idea of dmg cap is indeed good and would bring class utility/abilities more into question more than just the damage the class is able to deal/time.

 

[Amadon]

Originally posted by Pandemic
well thats exactly what i said ? an average hib pbaoe grp vs an average mid tank grp results in a 50/50 win/loss. the high rr mid and hib rvr guilds will win more respectively and the lower rr from each side will lose more. but in my experience it averages out about right. hibs have better casters mids have better tanks so it averages out roughly ok. yeah ur gonna get some extremes of both and that puts people off saying its totally unbalanced but i dont think it is.

well my point is that what you consider an average tank group isn't using the abilities at it's disposal to negate casters, if they did, you'd find yourself winning far more than 50/50

btw, mid casters are arguably better than hib casters (check how much damage your damage spells delve for compared to hibs, and you have ae stun), the only reason you don't see mid caster groups that often is because they're so damn fragile, whereas hibs are slightly less fragile due to GP. The fragility is a result of the imbalance between casters and melee - largely due to determination and the speed of engagement.

if you think casters are fine, i'd suggest you go and have a quick look at all the caster boards across the realms on vnwhines. Compare what you see on those boards to what you see on tank boards and it becomes pretty clear that something's drastically wrong, and it's not just from my perspective.

anyway, this argument is kind of off-topic, the issue was whether issues with classes are being 'fixed' with TOA items/MLs rather than actually being dealt with, and my opinion is that they are.

if you want to discuss the imbalance or lack thereof further, feel free to make another thread about that

 

[Shaki/Aeis]

So this one time you got killed by an Eldritch solo Pandemic?

Yes nerf casters!
One dared to go out solo! and even got a kill!!!1

 

[Pandemic]

Originally posted by Shaki/Aeis
So this one time you got killed by an Eldritch solo Pandemic?

Yes nerf casters!
One dared to go out solo! and even got a kill!!!1

point out the bit where i said casters should be nerfed ?

 

[Garbannoch Nox]

what people often fail to realise is that tanks have been boosted all the time (better weapons whether it is attack speed or dps) while mages still have the same delve values on their spells. Additionally sky high resists makes mage groups without debuffer very hard to play.
I haven't played ToA yet but looking at some of the artifacts it is probably in the favour of casters (for instance PBAoE cast time of 0.6 sec with maxed cast speed compared to about 1 sec now on a high RR caster will make a difference).
But still even after ToA we are likely to see the same classes and group setups (ie det tanks, PBAoE casters, lots of healers).

Mythic can do whatever they want: they can introduce artifacts with insta kill charges; as long as they dont remove determination this game will never be balanced.

 

[Pandemic]

if they remove determination mate i will just be a rp cow. it would almost certainly cause me to play a caster most likely my shaman bb. there would be no point in playing a warrior as i would be locked down every fight at the start for the entire fight not much fun.

 

[excs]

Originally posted by Garbannoch Nox
as long as they dont remove determination this game will never be balanced.

Seriously woot you do want us to do then, Garba. As a Albion u got "great" RAs every 30 mins!, with those down we cant do a flying shit. And our RAs got nothing towards "caster" grps besides Purge. As a Albion ur only "allowed" to get xps every 30 mins if u dont zerg.

Imo: the Fault was made by mystic as they made the game, by making 14 diff. class on Albion, 13 on hib and 12 on mid. And also that they didnt think when they added RAs to the game.

Nerf my spelling

 

[Garbannoch Nox]

Originally posted by excs
Seriously woot you do want us to do then, Garba. As a Albion u got "great" RAs every 30 mins!, with those down we cant do a flying shit. And our RAs got nothing towards "caster" grps besides Purge. As a Albion ur only "allowed" to get xps every 30 mins if u dont zerg.

Imo: the Fault was made by mystic as they made the game, by making 14 diff. class on Albion, 13 on hib and 12 on mid. And also that they didnt think when they added RAs to the game.

Nerf my spelling

as a compensation mez duration should get shortened across the board from 1:10 min atm to like 30-40 secs or so which would result in an effective mez duration of 10-25 secs depending on resists and distance to mez center. Determination was introduced at a time when casters ruled; this time is long gone and det is now a reason why you dont see any caster groups except for hibs one who can make up for the lack of determination with GP.

ofc tanks dont like it - they still wanna have easy mode like the last 1 year or so...

 

[poma]

From what I've read on the vgn toa boards a tiny amount of caster lubbin is there.

Spec DD casting times of around 1 second and pbaoe of under a second along with 25% more mana should make for a nice increase in DPS for most casters. Thunderkitty form makes for nice intersting targetting also..

Interupt system needs looking at though.

Poma

 

[lac_desariel]

it makes me wonder why Tanks say they are RP cows pre Det, I still got mezzed for full duration and still do, Im a caster die in 2 hits alwasy have done and i still tank full CC duration always have done
you cant balance if you wanna stay true the fantasy..

Wizard at high lvl Arch mage lvl will pawn tanks tanks are better lower lvls, Eldric is the best caster going but normaly exclusive to elfs, Dwarfs dont like magic and dont use magic, Trolls eat kolbolds and hate dwarfs list goes on... the bezerkers or battlerager, is imumner to mind spellls when in fury

If you balance thatn your class isnt right to what it should be and if you dont you get fotm issuses, so whats right and wrong? maybe play for fun and enjoy your clas, i been a wizard from day 1, i thought about eldric but nahhh im a wizard, i thought about merc or zerk but nah i have FUN on a wizard, some you win some you get ganked bad

 

[bracken_woodman]

Originally posted by Pandemic
mm i'd say fg mids that i am in against a fg hib pbaoe grp we win/lose about 50/50 that seems pretty well balanced to me. obviously its gonna vary but it averages out about right

Agree with that..hib casters have a much better time of it than casters from other realms.

 

[Acun]

nah..whats makes this game unbalanced is numbers.
its aaaaaaaaaaaall about numbers.

Can a group of 8 lvl1 ppl kill a group of rr10 ppl.no
Can a group of 8lvl50 rr1l0 in epic kill 8rr10pl. no.
Can a group of 8lvl50 rr4,5,6Letc kill 8rr10ppl. yes.
Can a group of 8lvl50 rr10 kill 32rr1l0in epic. no.
Can this game ever be balanced in numbers. no.
Is this a mmorpg. yes.
Can some1 demand or expect equal number fights in daoc. no.
Does it happen equal numbers fight. yes.
Is it fun..even if u loose. yes.
Soo basicly ppl playing are just addicted wajners then. yes.
Will ppl flame me now. yes.

 

[mehuge]

Originally posted by Amadon
If all my fights were solo vs solo tanks then I wouldn't have a problem, unfortunately they're not and you know it.
If casters have the range advantage and you don't have resist buffs, then they're fine with interrupts as they are and low surviveability etc, however with speed 6, support chars having similar or further ranged interrupts, they're not fine as they are.
You can try use the argument of DH, but unfortunately not all casters can run in such high RR groups.
The problem with casters is how easily they can be negated compared to melee, interrupts is one of the biggest issues with that.
Solo is not really of a concern to me since very little RvR nowadays is solo.

As far as casters go, I'm lucky to have 2 of the best in the game. Casters in general however are not fine.

Your not supposed to be able to kill everything in every situation. It isn't intended to be a solo game at the RvR level for most classes, it's a group game.

Casters get interupted, but have range to compensate. Mele dont get interupted but have no range. Maybe a bit of a simplistic view.

Nerf hibryd classes

 

[hotrat]

Originally posted by Acun
Can a group of 8lvl50 rr10 kill 32rr1l0in epic. no.

I would definately put my money on the 8 lvl 50 rr10's, even more money if they were a hib pbae group, and more still if the rr1's were 40% casters 40% tanks 20% seer's, BaoD sux!