My beard. :'(

[Tilda]

Its like Ulrych is reading my mind, and posting my views but in better english I can write!!

Personally I liked wearing a suit for my 6th form, made you feel respectable, and part of a team.

Then again, no uniform wouldn't have matched the school itself, being a respected public school with ancient buildings and the suchlike.

This I agree with too, it sounds like my school

Tilda

 

[Ulrych]

Its like Ulrych is reading my mind, and posting my views but in better english I can write!!

I was just eavesdropping.

 

[Tilda]

I was just eavesdropping.

Damn, i must be thinking too loudly!

 

[Alkoran]

I'd sooner test drive a car from some car-lot where the staff are presentable, rather than from a showroom where the staff amble around in jeans and t-shirts

Why?

 

[gunner440]

what if the guy in jeans and tshirt is a mechanic..someone who can say more than a simple "yes" when asked if the car has wheels

and the suit person is one of those work-with-a-textbook type call centre worker

 

[Ulrych]

Why?

Would've thought that would be obvious, the guy cares about his appearance, and would hopefully care about the environment he works in, if hes presentable generally so are the goods he is trying to sell.
Its not fool proof, but its a rule of thumb.


I don't think I've ever seen a car mechanic in a suit, at his place of work.

As I said earlier, right clothes for the right job.

 

[Ulrych]

and the suit person is one of those work-with-a-textbook type call centre worker

Our definition of call centre might be different, but mine is a place where people ring up or where the staff cold call other people, be it to sell goods or insurance etc.. so that means they are on the phone, you don't see people on the other end of a telephone (note telephone, not mobile videophone)

 

[Whisperess]

Would've thought that would be obvious, the guy cares about his appearance, and would hopefully care about the environment he works in, if hes presentable generally so are the goods he is trying to sell.

Or he's trying to hide the fact that he's selling crap stuff with a smile

 

[Ulrych]

Aye, which is why I said 'generally'

 

[Alkoran]

Would've thought that would be obvious, the guy cares about his appearance, and would hopefully care about the environment he works in, if hes presentable generally so are the goods he is trying to sell.
Its not fool proof, but its a rule of thumb.

It's far from fool proof...

How do you know he cares about his appearance?

More likely he cares that you care, he knows what you expect and meets those expectations.

Maybe he likes what he wears. Maybe he hates having to put a suit on to go to work every day just because hard of thinking people judge his apptitude at his job by how he dresses. Maybe he doesn't care what he wears as long as it means you don't notice how much extra the metalic paint costs.

Factoring in the appearance of the salesperson when buying a car is just plain stupid. True it maybe influenced by factors related to the quality of postsale service, honesty of pricing etc. but there are so many other variables involved which you can't get a grasp on, that this piece of information is a hundred times less valuable than any of the other information you will be weighing up.

"Right clothes for the right job," you say? Why are the right clothes for selling cars a suit and tie? Because people allow themselves to be manipulated?

"Uniforms in schools"? "Yes sir, no sir"? "Shave that beard off it doesn't meet with our arbitary requirements of aesthetics"? What a wonderful way to enlighten our children.

 

[Loxleyhood]

I don't mind so much having to lose the beard, though I did love it. But it was particularly rude and patronising how my head of year handled it.


"Yes, you've proved you're a man, now go get rid of it."

Tosser, I'm twice the man he'll ever be. Seriously. He only has one testicle.

 

[harebear]

My school tried to ban long hair on males and wanted everyone to get it cut etc... I dont see what the problem is as 2 of my mates have long hair and they probably work better than most the people in the school :S Anyway the school gave up after sending all boys home with long hair, they got muchos complaints >D

 

[Vepo]

Schools really need to be careful with what they say and do to there pupils. Because all it needs is one kids to be smart enough to know what they are doing is breaking the law and human rights can be bought in. Not to mention that pupil and can sue the school and the educational board oh and the teachers in question would lose there jobs.

 

[Loxleyhood]

Only utter ***** would do that.

 

[Ulrych]

It's far from fool proof...

How do you know he cares about his appearance?

More likely he cares that you care, he knows what you expect and meets those expectations.

Maybe he likes what he wears. Maybe he hates having to put a suit on to go to work every day just because hard of thinking people judge his apptitude at his job by how he dresses. Maybe he doesn't care what he wears as long as it means you don't notice how much extra the metalic paint costs.

Factoring in the appearance of the salesperson when buying a car is just plain stupid. True it maybe influenced by factors related to the quality of postsale service, honesty of pricing etc. but there are so many other variables involved which you can't get a grasp on, that this piece of information is a hundred times less valuable than any of the other information you will be weighing up.

"Right clothes for the right job," you say? Why are the right clothes for selling cars a suit and tie? Because people allow themselves to be manipulated?

"Uniforms in schools"? "Yes sir, no sir"? "Shave that beard off it doesn't meet with our arbitary requirements of aesthetics"? What a wonderful way to enlighten our children.

I said its not fool proof.

Hard of thinking? This was an example, by any stretch of the imagination not the best. But it illustrated that looking smart and caring about your appearance does affect first impressions on someone.
Assuming that someone is going to think the salesman is ok because he looks smart, makes you an ass. I never once said anywhere that it'll be 100% correct.

Personally its a nice subliminal message that a lot of people actually miss out on - we're all the same. Why hate one another? (re: school uniforms)

If you want to sell something you need a few things, a good appearance and a good manner. A suit accomplishes the first. Instantly you stand out as someone smart looking.
Like it or not, frankly it wont matter whether you agree. The way society is at the moment, this is how is stands.

As someone said earlier uniforms help distinguish one school load from another on trips, even if there are no other schools around on said trip it helps tutors instantly recognise their pupils.
Same goes for the work place, uniforms help customers instantly recognise a member of staff as someone who may be able to assist them.

Like it or lump it, thats the way it is for now. You can go on about thinking outside of the box or for 'us who are of hard thinking', I'll say again, thats how society is atm.

Join the anarchists or other non-conformists if you really must. It wont change, because at the moment the majority is 'right'.


Back to loxleyhoods dilemma tbh if hes that patronising then yea he deserves to be laid open infront of his superiors (teachers board etc) and again I don't see why you can't have a beard if its well groomed.

Thing is schools have a reputation to consider for a variety of political reasons. As long as your appearance isn't unkempt they really shouldn't have a problem with it. Unless its written somewhere in their statement/goal/rules that facial hair isn't accept, they really have nothing to say in the matter.

 

[Loxleyhood]

It's pretty immature to go telling on teachers. And in the end I am attending my skill at my own choice, I can seek employment or another school if I choose.

 

[Loxleyhood]

Nah, that's an over reaction. The man may be a wanker but the world's full of them, and we have to put up with it. At least while I'm at school.

 

[Ulrych]

mkay return afterwards and gloat on how much money you earn.

And no, you don't have to put up with wankers I don't

 

[Alkoran]

Personally its a nice subliminal message that a lot of people actually miss out on - we're all the same. Why hate one another? (re: school uniforms)

We're not all the same.
We're all different.

"Look are uniforms, we're all the same, we can't hate each other."
That only cuts it till you come accross someone who is obviously different.

How about,
"We don't need to hate people who are different."
wouldn't that be a better idea?



You do not need to look smart to sell things.

The bloke who installed our windows:
Turned up in his overalls with a tape measure, some samples of wood finishes, design sketches and photos of previous work. Told us what he could do, made changes to match what we wanted. He did a great job, since then he's done several other houses on the street. This guy is never unemployed and he never wears a suit and you'd think he cut his own hair, without the aid of a mirror.

The bloke I bought most of this computer from:
T-shirt and jeans, ussually looks like he was interupted half way through a shave. He drives a very expencive car and likes to spend his holidays in brazil.

 

[Ulrych]

We're not all the same.
We're all different.

"Look are uniforms, we're all the same, we can't hate each other."
That only cuts it till you come accross someone who is obviously different.

All here to learn etc

 

[Dillinja]

I don't mind so much having to lose the beard, though I did love it. But it was particularly rude and patronising how my head of year handled it.


"Yes, you've proved you're a man, now go get rid of it."

Tosser, I'm twice the man he'll ever be. Seriously. He only has one testicle.

You should've just told him to piss off. I hated teachers when I was at school, especially the ones that seemed to think that they were superior to the students in some way, and this moron sounds like one of them.

 

[Ulrych]

The computer guy sounds self-employed, thats his bag.
How did you hear about him? Word of mouth is good, tv/adverts get their message across.

On a human level, first contact, first impressions make a difference.


The company that did our windows sent around 2 agents suited up.
The guys that came to measure up/breif us on what was happening were in overalls too. Because they work hands on in unclean environs.

Again, clothes for the job.

This isn't going anywhere really, discussion wise, but its nice to see a less hostile debate

I think we obviously have very different opinions on whats what, and what works for different people.
I won't bother commenting again, as its digressed somewhat from school uniforms.

 

[Sissyfoo]

You should've just told him to piss off. I hated teachers when I was at school, especially the ones that seemed to think that they were superior to the students in some way, and this moron sounds like one of them.

A lot of my teachers were like that; bloody ex-marine/RAF/army/navy CO types. Hum ... they seem to think that the mark of an ideal student was someone who was nicely turned out with starched collar, pressed trousers and smooth cheeks (I assumed they were referring to the face cheeks but you can never tell with them navy boys). My own humble opinion is that I work better when I am comfortable and if this means having 3 weeks of facial fluff, baggy trousers and a semi-buttoned up shirt then so be it.

This is part of the reason why I hate working for an anally retentive corporation.

 

[Alkoran]

The computer guy sounds self-employed, thats his bag.
How did you hear about him? Word of mouth is good, tv/adverts get their message across.

On a human level, first contact, first impressions make a difference.


The company that did our windows sent around 2 agents suited up.
The guys that came to measure up/breif us on what was happening were in overalls too. Because they work hands on in unclean environs.

Again, clothes for the job.

This isn't going anywhere really, discussion wise, but its nice to see a less hostile debate

I think we obviously have very different opinions on whats what, and what works for different people.
I won't bother commenting again, as its digressed somewhat from school uniforms.

Sorry about the "hard of thinking" bit that was rather sharp, but I beleive that judging someone's skill in whatever they do by their appearace is very offensive. I have yet to meet anyone who can show me a sound logical link link between the wearing of a suit and someones integrity, knowledge or dexterity.

On the subject of uniforms, can anyone provide a logical arguement for the benifits of a school uniform?

 

[Sissyfoo]

Umm...I can only think of sleazy reasons.

~punishes himself~

 

[Ulrych]

Beings as its back to uniforms.

School uniforms - school trips, less items for wear and tear. Helps encourage in an unconcious fashion appreciaton for order.

Plus the opening two replies I made.

I believe those to be valid points and reasons.

This is all imo

Someone is more likely to approach a well kept and smart person over a grubby person (strangers at least) because they 'appear' responsible. Its all subconcious thinking.

Saying casual man is better than smart man is foolish. That can only be determined through practical experience.

School uniforms help encourage responsibility imo, you only have a few sets of school clothing, so you look after them. Amongst other things naturally. But the uniform is a factor imo.

 

[Dillinja]

Main reason is so that people know if a kid is out of school when they shouldn't be. Otherwise they might be passed off as a young looking adult.. or something.

 

[Loxleyhood]

Pulled again tonight btw. Hurrah,she didn't love me for the bearrd.

 

[Alkoran]

Beings as its back to uniforms.

School uniforms - school trips, less items for wear and tear. Helps encourage in an unconcious fashion appreciaton for order.

Plus the opening two replies I made.

I believe those to be valid points and reasons.

This is all imo

By logical arguement I mean one where you present a fact which all agree on and then progress from that fact through as series of logical steps to reach something that was not necessarily agreed on before the arguement was presented, but is then accepted if the logic is sound.

Counters

If a uniform is required for the purposes of identification on trips (which in my experience does not appear to be the case), then could not this uniform be reserved for this purpose?

School uniforms are not particularly resistant to wear as they are often not designed as work clothes, often composed of thin matterial, including a large proportion of polyester or poorly stiched. The absence of a uniform does not create a need for more clothes.

---

Some points of my arguement

Telling people what to wear is rather dictatorial. All freedoms should be preserved wherever there are no costs to others. Therefore a uniform should only be required if the positive points of it are tangible.

Discomfort does not aid a person's ability to learn in a classroom environment. Students should be dressed in such a way that is apropriate for the lesson in hand and as comfortably as this permits. Not all clothes are comfortable for all people. Therefore it is unlikely that a uniform will be acceptably comfortable for all students.

Sexism is not a good thing. School uniforms tend to have requirements that depend upon a stundent's sex. Demanding that women dress in a typically feminine manner (eg the wearing of skirts) is not acceptable.
Most schools make concessions on this point and allow female students to make choices regarding their uniform allowing them to project more individuality in their attire. This liberty is rarely granted to male students. This is sexist.

---

Some questions

How are students made to wear the uniform?
What happens in cases where not wearing the uniform is not the fault of the student?
What results when the uniform infringes upon the obligations of a student's religion?
What do you mean by "a fashion appretiation for order" and what is it's purpose?

 

[Ulrych]

Your first line I believe leans toward persuading someone of your own viewpoint.

You're ideas are already set in stone or so they appear (mine are) with regards to this topic. I fail to see any further reason to discuss this as I believe we will only end up in circles (again).

I do not believe in giving children or young adults every freedom to do as they choose for whatever reason. They need boundaries so they can appreciate what society and the world at large (including the working place) will give them.

I stand down from this topic as I believe the only way it would cease is if all parties agree with your own personal view.

Take care