Minstrels! Send this to Mythic!

[Karatakus]

Personally I would love to keep hold of a pet with no resists or not having to twist to run speed/pow song/heal song/ablative and keep pet, but I think if we could charm a pet which then allowed us to use our other songs without resisting, then we shouldn't be allowed to stealth whilst having an active pet. To be allowed to stealth and hold a pet would be a tad too powerful imo. Can u imagine the ambushes that a mincer could set up if he could stealth with a non resisting pet? I can imagine the whine now.

Imo the casting time on a mincers AOE mezz is a joke, and imo should be lowered dramatically. Doing ur merry dance for 5 seconds before casting an aoe mezz is totally impractical in RvR these days.

As far as any stealth issues go, i'd personally wuld love for mincers to get MOS. They are the only stealth class that doesn't have it, which imo is just plain stupid. I mean they get the benefits of assassin stealth in general (distract, safefall, climb walls), so why can't they get MOS which any other stealther can get? Daft, isn't it?

With groupability, imo there is nothing wrong with a mincers groupabilty except ofc the ability of most groups to see and use a mincer in a position in which it excels in. That is ofc an interrupter attached to an assist train. A sojo mincer in that position is awesome. Stun, dds, and confusion to mess up enemy casters casting, Fz to get rid of those annoying BGers who protect them, then Phaseshift when u got enemy tanks chasing u around the place cos u've just been a royal pain in the a to their support - sounds like a pretty good interrupter to me. Like I said tho, its getting groups to see this potential.

I do think that mincers need an upgrade, and it would be interesting to see what Mythic would come up with if/when they do get round to it. I'm not going to hold my breath tho

 

[Sigidil]

I agree with Gamah. Minstrels def. need a DPS boost in either Melee or magic.
I also agree with the PvE part.
I disagree about the ML line.

Good luck Gamah.

 

[Drucken]

I agree that it would be nice to be able to have a pet chamred while stealthed, but it would never happen. Mythic are too realistic to let a guy be able to, through song, tell his companion what to do and still not be able to be seen by enemies, can you actully imagine someone hearing a loud song from an open field controlling an animal but not maybe realise someone could be singing there...

As for costaslev's post i really hope you're exagerrating very much about the rr1 stealther, or you should maybe switch to slash...
and i think Gamah's idea about minstrels groupability would be that they would be an alternative to fop like in the good old days, clerics would still be needed to heal.

I do agree that minstrels should get the banelord spec line, but if they do i strongly doubt any other love would be handed out, a correctly played BL minstrel would IMO be the best interrupter in the game if he could play right.
(and whats wrong about the water buff? I love not being a slave underthe bottle )

I do agree that minstrels should get some love to their DDs or a shield line like wardens. if albion was like mid we would all run around with nice 2 handers and i dont think people would complain then but seeing as this is not the case we need something to boost are damage.

I'm not too concerned about the sealth part, I move around alot so it happends assasins miss their stealth attacks and many times i spot archers and am able to jump them without them being prepared

debuffs would be nice, and i especially like the ws debuff idea to counter the nasty debuffs we get on us we would jsut need something small, maybe a haste debuff would work too seeing as none of these would affect our still good ability to farm enemy casters

 

[GReaper]

Have to agree that minstrels have been indirectly nerfed over time so badly, I'm just unsure on the ideas for improving them.

Would the suggestions you've given make minstrels into a groupable class for RvR again? Most groups are either after a class with high DPS, or damn good utility. I can never see Mythic adding anything to increase the DPS to the levels which a group would want, so you'd be relying on them to give the class some damn good utility spells. Banelord alone probably won't be enough to convince groups to run with a minstrel!

Minstrels used to be a great class at the start of the game, a powerful stealther as well as an excellent class for grouping with. Now it can do neither, it's time to fix something!

 

[costaslev]

As for costaslev's post i really hope you're exagerrating very much about the rr1 stealther, or you should maybe switch to slash...
and i think Gamah's idea about minstrels groupability would be that they would be an alternative to fop like in the good old days, clerics would still be needed to heal.

Unfortunately I am not exaggerating at all. Solo minstrels are easy pray. Ok, I am not fully templated yet but I am not bad. I ve played this class solo long enough not to start shaking when I get in a fight, not to panic when I am losing etc. I am not saying I am great but I can handle things. However it's not rare to have my *** kicked by a RR1 stealther. If stun is resisted which is not rare you know you are in trouble. I am not surprised losing to anyone anymore. And yeah I know and I am able to execute the flute mezz DD DD mezz lands etc, to use against casters but I still might lose. Actually chances against casters are worse. They either root mezz or whatever and run away or nuke you out of the Frontiers. It's simple, minstrels are very weak. When soloing which is most of the time 1000rps/hour is a very good day. At RR4 at least. That says a lot doesn't it?

Yeah it says, with your speed better do assasssin missions, you ll be getting a steady 3k/hour!

 

[Light]

Agree and sent.

Solo: Even at RR9+ I still have to rely far too heavily on timers being up to stand a chance.

Groups: Other chars offer much more than the minstrel ever can in its current state, our single target interupts are no match - BL may possibly help to rectify that.

 

[Eeben]

Unfortunately I am not exaggerating at all. Solo minstrels are easy pray. Ok, I am not fully templated yet but I am not bad. I ve played this class solo long enough not to start shaking when I get in a fight, not to panic when I am losing etc. I am not saying I am great but I can handle things. However it's not rare to have my *** kicked by a RR1 stealther. If stun is resisted which is not rare you know you are in trouble. I am not surprised losing to anyone anymore. And yeah I know and I am able to execute the flute mezz DD DD mezz lands etc, to use against casters but I still might lose. Actually chances against casters are worse. They either root mezz or whatever and run away or nuke you out of the Frontiers. It's simple, minstrels are very weak. When soloing which is most of the time 1000rps/hour is a very good day. At RR4 at least. That says a lot doesn't it?

Yeah it says, with your speed better do assasssin missions, you ll be getting a steady 3k/hour!

lol if you almost lose to a rr1 sb there is something wrong ^^ sb's was pretty much always the easyest target when i playd mincer so maybe you should get your template done or remake it

 

[Gamah]

Unfortunately I am not exaggerating at all. Solo minstrels are easy pray. Ok, I am not fully templated yet but I am not bad. I ve played this class solo long enough not to start shaking when I get in a fight, not to panic when I am losing etc. I am not saying I am great but I can handle things. However it's not rare to have my *** kicked by a RR1 stealther. If stun is resisted which is not rare you know you are in trouble. I am not surprised losing to anyone anymore. And yeah I know and I am able to execute the flute mezz DD DD mezz lands etc, to use against casters but I still might lose. Actually chances against casters are worse. They either root mezz or whatever and run away or nuke you out of the Frontiers. It's simple, minstrels are very weak. When soloing which is most of the time 1000rps/hour is a very good day. At RR4 at least. That says a lot doesn't it?

Yeah it says, with your speed better do assasssin missions, you ll be getting a steady 3k/hour!

Im sorry mate but from what you discribed, you need to learn to play your class effectivly, You need to learn what other oponents are likley to do when you attack them..for example..dont purge a mentalists mez when you know he is going to stun you after. If a caster gets the jump.. eaither sos away or sos into them..as for rr1 shadowblades, I would probably insta kill the poor bastards..minstrels are gimped but not that gimped

 

[Kaleid]

Boost them ?? without giving the other realms the ability to have a stealthing mezzer there is no way in hell that mincers should be improved.
People shoud get used to the idea that not every class they play should be able to solo kill everything .. some classes are support classes and thats that.
If the mincers get an upgrade then the mid healer should be able to stealth, have pets and better speed so that they can flounce around supporting SB's as the Mincer does atm.

 

[mikke]

i disagree.
they are Op as there is.
powerfull ae mezz and instakill dd's on a low timer combined with a long lasting stun. give nerf imo.

ha-ha, have you played one? :|

powerfull AE mess on a 5 sec cast time, and the mess has an effective duration on about 5-15 secs.. The "instakill" dd's hit for 150-200, and gets ressisted on one in three times or so.. and the stun aint all that tbh, compared with hib caster stun and mid healerstun's.

and even if we manage to stun you, we still hit you like a gimp with our sword...

so i totally agree with Gamah here.. minstrels are redundant in both pve and pvp becouse of many reasons; fop, foh, buffed caster speed, lack of interupts, no dmg output, etc etc..

 

[Void959]

Boost them ?? without giving the other realms the ability to have a stealthing mezzer there is no way in hell that mincers should be improved.
People shoud get used to the idea that not every class they play should be able to solo kill everything .. some classes are support classes and thats that.
If the mincers get an upgrade then the mid healer should be able to stealth, have pets and better speed so that they can flounce around supporting SB's as the Mincer does atm.

Minstrel's don't support SBs atm as far as I'm aware

And if minstrels are an effective support class then why are they always one of the last choices for PUGs let alone opted groups? Most groups I've played with would rather run with the 8th spot open until they can get a damager/banelord than group a minstrel.

 

[GrivneKelmorian]

I suggest the following to improve the class
- A new Pet system (as mentioned above)
- Some form of debuff reset (remedy?) or a counter debuff (insta) for dex/quick and weapon skill (this would not affect casters as much but would help us be able to complete with the new strong assassins)
- Charisma buffable or moved to a new damage line
- Some form of group love which makes us wanted in groups again with out making us overpowered in solo play. (Banelord)
- Update of the values of Heal/Power song to make them an effective alternative to FOP
- An increase in the value of the minstrel ablative (100/6 seconds)

Instresting ideas Gamah. I give you that.. but in my own honest opinion, minstrel is still probably the most flexible solo class this game has to offer. Used to love playing mine.

PvE: Agree with you, the exp groups around dosnt need a minstrel, more often then not someone brings a buffbot along with ml5+ for FoP ect and there isnt really much need for an interupter in PvE. Back up CC perhaps.. but you get my meaning.

as an input on fighting against minstrels in RvR:
Pets: a very powerfull tool, taking the right pet means plenty of additional damage, but I dont have to tell you that.

Debuffs: beeing able to debuff is a very strong tool for soloing, together with a class that has for example FZ, IP, WH.. just to mention a few things not uncommon on a minstrel, it would make them.. what i recon, would be over the top.
Same would be with having a remedy equaliant. Even when ws/con debuffed and the old str/con debuffed, minstrels wernt softhitters compared to others. You know that aswell Gamah.

Casting stat: The charisma part I do agree with you on, make it acuity buffable, same with champs and thanes for their castable stat. But I am guessing that Mythic only wants pure casters to be able to buff their casting stat :/

Group love: I do belive banelord would be to go over the top.. personally i think battlemaster would be suitable.
Banelord scenario: Banespike solo on a class like the minstrel? Sounds way overpowerd in my honest opinion. Its a light tank ability wich should never been given to anything but light tanks :/

Cant really comment on the last bit.

My two cents.

 

[GrivneKelmorian]

Didnt get to edit my post..

imho give minstrels insta AE mezz

in the quest of making all 3 realms more and more equal, id say lower sorc mezz to normal cast range and give a class like the minstrel an aoe mezz equal to the bard/pac healer at high instrument spec.

 

[Konah]

fact is ppl play minstrels to "wtfpwn" solo, where its horribly overpowered in the right hands... and then whine when they dont get grps with thier 35stealth spec and +11 stealth suits...

remove stealth from the class and alot more would get grps.

 

[GrivneKelmorian]

Im sorry mate but from what you discribed, you need to learn to play your class effectivly, You need to learn what other oponents are likley to do when you attack them..for example..dont purge a mentalists mez when you know he is going to stun you after. If a caster gets the jump.. eaither sos away or sos into them..as for rr1 shadowblades, I would probably insta kill the poor bastards..minstrels are gimped but not that gimped

please gamah.. teach Hydor how to play his class properly.. and not just run in and add when an inf is half dead, only to die halfway through the add

In all honesty.. minstrel is a powerfull class.. but the minstrel is a class that needs its toys to be that powerfull.

It requiers skill to play it well, its not a class that you pl to 50, get your ml's and your suit and wtf pwn anything in sight.. it takes time to learn to play it and play against it.

 

[costaslev]

please gamah.. teach Hydor how to play his class properly.. and not just run in and add when an inf is half dead, only to die halfway through the add

I can accept people telling me I am not playing my minstrel well enough cause let's face it, it could be true. But wtf are you talking about there? Have you actually seen me doing that? You are way out of line. If you are such a louzy player yourself it doesn't mean everyone does the same. Hell, that's why it doesn't worth posting here since people like you who probably think they know everything are filling the pages with crap like what you just posted

 

[Gamah]

I can accept people telling me I am not playing my minstrel well enough cause let's face it, it could be true. But wtf are you talking about there? Have you actually seen me doing that? You are way out of line. If you are such a louzy player yourself it doesn't mean everyone does the same. Hell, that's why it doesn't worth posting here since people like you who probably think they know everything are filling the pages with crap like what you just posted

I am not saying it nastly mate, but from what you described is nothing like what I experiance. I think of myself as a pretty experianced minstrel, but yes it wasn't easy going at the start, but as I learned, gained RR's and abiltys i got better. But the monster key point on a minstrel is learning WHEN to use your timers, use them in the wrong place and your dead.

 

[GrivneKelmorian]

I am not saying it nastly mate, but from what you described is nothing like what I experiance. I think of myself as a pretty experianced minstrel, but yes it wasn't easy going at the start, but as I learned, gained RR's and abiltys i got better. But the monster key point on a minstrel is learning WHEN to use your timers, use them in the wrong place and your dead.

spot on. as i said before, the minstrel isnt a pl to 50, get a suit and ml's and pwn everything in sight.
takes time, takes abilitys. But when you do get your abilitys, there isnt much a minstrel cant kill 1on1.

 

[Void959]

spot on. as i said before, the minstrel isnt a pl to 50, get a suit and ml's and pwn everything in sight.
takes time, takes abilitys. But when you do get your abilitys, there isnt much a minstrel cant kill 1on1.

Unless they're down, and that's the frustrating thing about the class imo, timed abilities make too much difference, it relies on them more than almost any class imo.

 

[GrivneKelmorian]

Unless they're down, and that's the frustrating thing about the class imo, timed abilities make too much difference, it relies on them more than almost any class imo.

yeah but as gamah said.. dont RA dump on every target you find.. learn when to use your stuff.

 

[Void959]

yeah but as gamah said.. dont RA dump on every target you find.. learn when to use your stuff.

I know that, I certainly don't dump in fact I often underuse abilities, trying rr5+ stealthers using no abilities when they're all up, sometimes I win and sometimes I die when I could have easily won, because I enjoy close fights even if its artificial. But that's also what makes it dull to me, I know in 80% of fights I lose that I probably could have won by using more abilities, but doing so would possibly lose me the next fight. Against certain high rr heavy tanks for example there is no way to win except the full battler+warguard dump, some people may not mind this but personally I just feel lame doing that, and would rather see how far I can get them with warguard alone. Thats what it really comes down to, 1v1 minstrel is a timed ability class and not much without them.

 

[Kaleid]

When it comes to RA's and suchlike all classes suffer from the same timed ability problems really. Like all classes though as folks are saying, its about finding out how to play and and more importantly how YOU like to play it.

I play my runie solo a lot.. I get stealthed on loads, steamrollered loads, mezzed by mincers and then gangbanged by their infil buddies loads, I get stunned by sorcs and killed before it wears off and even with purge3 I am usually unable to get a cast away due to the pets and interupts. My speed is ok but doesn't outrun a charge or a speed class, I have no baseline stuns or mezzes and my front end damage is slower and less powerful than most other realm main casters.

I actually have to try and root casters that are hitting me before they kill me, not a lot of fun!

However, I am working at it and finding out how best to play it.

Folks really do have to realise that every class cannot be a solo wonderkiller and in fact some classes, as i said earlier, are much more support orientated and actually more rewarding when you play them well with the abilities they have. Most of the respected players in this game are those that can play well with almost any class as it is.

NO stealther class should ever be a banelord. The ability to pop those sorts of abilities in the middle of a group, mezz then let the infil buddies gank the powerless victims would be a tad mad.

As for purge, that well known timed ability, if we are not careful we would get in a situation where everyone hides until all of their abilities are up ,, then rush out waste them and go hide again.

Have a great weekend and remember beer is your friend but whisky is everyones!

 

[DrunkSkunk]

I get stunned by sorcs and killed before it wears off

erm..

 

[costaslev]

Gamah mate, I am not offended by you at all. I know you don't mean bad. And telling me I may not playing well and offering tips you think I may need is a good way to help someone that wants to get better. So thanks mate.

However other people want to show off and get out of line. Now he solved the mystery, he thinks I pled the first character I ever made to 50! Got artied! Hell, maybe I bought the account and I don't even know what those things do at all. Well... no other comment needed.

And since it is stupid to discuss in this forum how well or how badly I play that's all from me, unless I feel offended again. The point is the life of a minstrel is harder than it should be.

 

[GrivneKelmorian]

However other people want to show off and get out of line. Now he solved the mystery, he thinks I pled the first character I ever made to 50! Got artied! Hell, maybe I bought the account and I don't even know what those things do at all. Well... no other comment needed.

Ive never said that and I never will. But your talking about your class like thats what it should be, an easymode class when its not.
The minstrel is, as said many times before in this thread, an ability class, lots of toys to use, knowing how to use them, when to use them, if you should use them.. the list goes on.

And when it comes to my opinion about you, well to say it kindly, i ever only see you add on soloers who fight other soloers, then run off when you get a 1on1 yourself. therefor, i do not like you.

1v1 minstrel is a timed ability class and not much without them.

I agree with that compleatly.. but its also a class with enough timed abilitys to get around and when used wisley, you will always have something up. Will take time, will take practice.. but hell.. to play any class well.. thats what you have to sacrifice.

 

[Smellysox]

I am not saying it nastly mate, but from what you described is nothing like what I experiance. I think of myself as a pretty experianced minstrel, but yes it wasn't easy going at the start, but as I learned, gained RR's and abiltys i got better. But the monster key point on a minstrel is learning WHEN to use your timers, use them in the wrong place and your dead.

I smell a rat , you aint Gamah .

 

[Drucken]

yeah comparing a stealthing healer with a minstrel because of the mezz is a good point... /sarcasm off
and u said to give a minstrel good ae mezz the sorc mezz would have to be at normal cast range? so then we would have 2 mezzers but no insta ae like the other realms? that aint fair at all.

about the rm. did i understand you correctly when u said you had lower dmg then the other casters in your realm? then respec to darkness if you want to solo

 

[judas]

minstrels as a group interupter is far greater then any of the oposing realms due to all its instants. and the fact that they can get a style such as ametyst makes it uttterly silly to whine for a boost.
ok group power regen and hp regen might look a bit gimpish in rvr and speed might not be what it once was.
maybe its time to spec music a bit lower and get higher weapon spec to get that littlel extra they seem to be missing.
a viable spec and some decent class knowledge is all it takes to make it viable in rvr.

 

[Golena]

How about we start with something really really basic..

Can our heal song please stack with the health regen buff that every player is currently buffed with!!

There's just one example of how many of the minstrel abilities have become completely outdated.

 

[Gamah]

minstrels as a group interupter is far greater then any of the oposing realms due to all its instants. and the fact that they can get a style such as ametyst makes it uttterly silly to whine for a boost.
ok group power regen and hp regen might look a bit gimpish in rvr and speed might not be what it once was.
maybe its time to spec music a bit lower and get higher weapon spec to get that littlel extra they seem to be missing.
a viable spec and some decent class knowledge is all it takes to make it viable in rvr.

Ridiculous suggestions, have you actually looked on how minstrels worked? Lowering instruments to say 44, would loose us the top ablative, meaning people would do an extra 30 damage / 6 seconds (1 min fight that’s an extra 300 damage) We would loose the TOP DD which would mean using a level 44 DD (mmm resist city). While this may be fine for your group minstrel, it's not for a solo one...as stated by me and many others our main dps comes from DD's which aside from The Malice effect can not be debuffed.

Speccing 44inst 49 slash does not get us diamond slash (Yes I am not auto trained) and also looses us stealth...speccing extra weapon over 39 is pointless unless you can get 50 slash. That's only good if you're getting groups...yey would be fun to be a gimp solo skald with no 2handed option.

Even with 50 slash, (Which means gimp DD's and stealth) against an assassin you're still going to hit like a bag of wet shit only this time you have no high level DD to back up the damage.

I am specced 50Instrements 39 Slash 18 stealth, while my stealth is gimpy it gives a good all round spec. Even with 370str and 39 slash my weapon skill is a whopping 1508!

As for being a group interupter being far greater than the enemy realms..rofl...ok minstrels are much better than banelord toating bonedancers, or bainshees who can interupt 3/4 targets from 2200 units away, 700 range instas don't cut in any more in a game where every caster and his dog have 10% range...or are you going to suggest we start putting 10% range in our SC kits? As if we don't have enough to cap already. I am sorry but you really don't have a clue do you?

I suggest you learn a bit about that class before saying "why not just drop instruments and go higher slash" because if only it were that simple this thread would have never been made. The fact you have some sort of minstrel TL thing in your sig makes it even worse no wonder our class is left out in the cold time and time again with people that seemly don't have much clue runnig the show. Buddy is even worse, the recent TL report was just a big bag of shit, addressing none of the real issues..if a TL can't suggest more than bug fixes for a class that has even more important issues then he should step aside.