Minstrels! Send this to Mythic!

[Gamah]

Minstrels - My Thoughts

Minstrels used to be a very powerful a versatile class, providing power, speed and heal songs for XP groups. These days with FOP, Heal Fonts and no need for speed minstrels have become subclass in PvE groups. There needs to be a boost to the effectiveness of our songs and this goes for skalds and bards too. Our songs were good in classic/SI but now they are no longer up to par due to other abilities brought into the game. Mythic need to address this situation so minstrels are viable in the few XP groups actually remaining in the game.

Minstrels are powerful pet classes at high level, a high realm rank minstrel can hold a level 60+ pet and do many TOA artefacts with just a bot and a pet. This is fine, however the pet use is limited in RvR by poor resist rates, cumbersome control of pets (Twisting) and the fact you loose stealth/ablative effectivly..Mythic need to address the use of pets in RvR because many minstrels don't even bother to use one..A system for example could be introduced that when the pet is level 50 or lower a sorcerer like charm system is used so there is no pulsing charm used. This would allow us to stealth and use speed/ablative whilst not giving us a very overpowered pet.

RvR
Minstrels used to be one of the best classes in the RvR scene; however we have been passively "nerfed" time and time again without any attention being given to our class. The classes power is based on timers, with abilities being down we are an easy kill for any semi decent assassin. Assassins who can easily see us for a huge distance because of our sub-par stealth and have opening attacks (2 handed PA) / de-buffs and poisons leaving the minstrel weak and an easy kill.
Many of the arguments against minstrels, for example chain armour/ablative etc are old and outdated, a 70 damage absorb every 6 seconds is close to useless in today’s fast moving high dps bursting RvR scene.

Minstrels used to rely on there direct damage spells to do a bulk of there damage due to poor weapon skill (which means assassins evade us a lot and even more once with are debuffed to hell) however with the introduction of CL resists minstrels find this damage to be insufficient where most opponents are running with 36% body resist. My Suggestion would be to let the cleric acuity buff affect charisma or to change the DD's to a less prominent damage type, for example spirit or matter.

A minstrel was also needed in every group in the past, however now minstrels are unwanted in groups due to ineffective interrupts compared with other classes and not enough unique RA's to make minstrels worth while grouping. Our ML lines are useless for groups and just force the minstrel into the world of stealth, where now we are subpar opponents against any hard hitting/debuffing assassin.

We don't have any counters for our main enemies (assassins) we are fully debuffed whilst they still have full stats and its not uncommon for an assassin to evade 5/6 hits in a row. Many minstrels are in despair at every coming patch and with class love being handed out left right and centre minstrels feel old/outdated and left behind.

I suggest the following to improve the class
- A new Pet system (as mentioned above)
- Some form of debuff reset (remedy?) or a counter debuff (insta) for dex/quick and weapon skill (this would not affect casters as much but would help us be able to complete with the new strong assassins)
- Charisma buffable or moved to a new damage line
- Some form of group love which makes us wanted in groups again with out making us overpowered in solo play. (Banelord)
- Update of the values of Heal/Power song to make them an effective alternative to FOP
- An increase in the value of the minstrel ablative (100/6 seconds)

Regards
Gamah
RR9 Minstrel Prydwen/Excalibur Cluster


- Please do not flame, if you have counter arguments put them forward as well thought out posts with a good reason for argueing the point.

 

[Ballard]

I agree wholeheartedly that minstrels have very slowly devauled. I also really like some of your ideas, especially the charisma buff. That would be a nice buff to our damage without being over the top.

Another thing that could possibly be considered is making exactly the same change that wardens got. Namely a shield spec line and a small number of additional spec points. You would rarely see a high shield spec minstrel but like wardens a slight boost to our defense could see minstrels once again competive against certain oponents. However this wouldnt help our groupability.. so some of your suggestions are likely much better.

Regarding the pet system, I do hope something is in the works not just for minstrels but also mentalists. Both classes would greatly benefit from non pulsing charm in rvr.

 

[Legean]

I like most of your suggestions except the pet one. Maybe if it was like a hunters pet or something in RvR (ie insta summoned so unbuffed and blue con) then it would work but i dont think Minis getting a pet they dont need to worry about losing in RvR along with your other suggestions would be balanced. I agree the pulsing one should be improved though maybe a longer duration on the pulse with a lower resist chance?

 

[uspe]

i agree gamah absolutely.
tbh isnt only minstrel who needs a bit of repair nowdays. not only because mythic/goa made a change on the game but of the game action of ppl.

 

[necromania]

agree 100% and sent to mythic :>

 

[Graendel]

I'd like to add that Euinar should also get an appearance respec. Maybe if he was less ugly someone would group him.

 

[Void959]

Agreed with most of it. The biggest problem I find with minstrel is the very low DPS. Since the warden got sheild, minstrels are now the only class in the game to be without the option of speccing either sheild or DW, or using a 2h weapon. Given that we are on the lowest non-healer WS table, that gives us the equal lowest melee DPS in the game (with scouts wardens and 1h thanes), and no active defense. Shouts really don't make up for this anymore in general, hitting for ~300 damage per 15 seconds, and ablative is just a joke unless we already have SOM + battler + warguard up. Ofc minstrels can have extremely strong defense when relying on timers, but apart from feeling dull, it makes for extremely long fights which in todays rvr means a high chance of adds.

The justification mythic normally give for not increasing minstrels DPS is that we have the stealth line, so have to be on the stealther table. But as well as ignoring the fact that every other stealther, assassins especially, have higher offense than us, mythic refuse to give any level of MOS, thus making the stealth line nothing more than a hide-from-FGs or sneak-up-on-people device for all minstrels who don't stealth zerg. I would gladly give up the stealth line for some extra offense or speccable defense. I think the option of stealth should certainly still exist, but there should either be a much bigger gain in melee damage when speccing over 30 base than there is now, or another melee line such as DW should be introduced.

 

[judas]

i disagree.
they are Op as there is.
powerfull ae mezz and instakill dd's on a low timer combined with a long lasting stun. give nerf imo.

 

[Illudian]

i disagree.
they are Op as there is.
powerfull ae mezz and instakill dd's on a low timer combined with a long lasting stun. give nerf imo.

Ah yes, the Vamp.

 

[Iridius]

Minstrel’s used to be part of the 5-man backbone of an Alb group but due to their diminished usefulness with all the new toys which have been introduced over the years they have been squeezed out of most group set-ups to make room for more healers (limited as they are in Albion) or more DPS.

Something I have always thought that Albion lacked was conc. Buffing classes in ye-olden days of the spite-cleric 2-4 clerics per-group most smite spec’d and plenty of buffers / healers and ressers to go round after Smite to Spite spec happened oops no buffers.

Got to be careful not to make the minstrel a bard but it would be nice if there was some kind of alternative to stealth – a more group friendly line, I think some ones comment above was quite apt that as minstrels have been forced out of groups they have to solo and their ability of a stealther if poor since the indirect nerf of giving all other stealth classes MoS. I digress but something along the lines of “choral” spec or something which base would just give you base buffs and you had to spec for healing / res / and/or something unique like a HoT and other group friendly abilities. Changes would require a re-jig of instruments a little but I am sure that could be done *but* make this new line mutually exclusive from stealth i.e. you cannot spec in one if you have spec’d in the other. In this way minstrels can choose to stay where they are if they are happy enough or at least have the option of dumping stealth and making themselves more desirable for groups PvE and RvR.

 

[Gamah]

i disagree.
they are Op as there is.
powerfull ae mezz and instakill dd's on a low timer combined with a long lasting stun. give nerf imo.

Those uber insta kill dd's that hit for 350ish on the uber low timer of 15 seconds and the madly long 9 second stunn thats affected by resists and det .. ahh yes..what a silly first post I made!

 

[Agrigo]

It all seems ok to me , but no thx to banelord =) something like battlemaster would help groupability ?

 

[TheSearcher]

and the 5 sec cast rate on mezz ffs come on .............. watch a bard mezz peeps faster than a sorc most of the time

 

[Golly]

ae amnesia at 2k+ range with 400 radius would sort groupability to an extent, and yea banelord would also help a ton whilst not making the class OP or the stealthwars OP (well infis with banespike would be nice but not hugely OP)

cant see a charm change happening nor a change in WS tables or more spec points or MoS- all these issues have been covered in TL reports before. best bet is banelord and maybe an additional spell for interrupting thats spammable in the inst line imo ;>

 

[Dracus]

and the 5 sec cast rate on mezz ffs come on .............. watch a bard mezz peeps faster than a sorc most of the time

Haha...when all else fails, exagerate! This is one of the reasons why classes are wrongfully fixed. Ppl exagerate to make a point...

Imo mincers have a LOT of tools available. So not sure where, if at all, they should look to fix. No they dont have high dps...But what they lack in killability they make up for in SURvivability(Please excuse the made up word ).

Not all classes are about killing you know?!

If anything they should add some kinda healing to mincers and remove stealth(yes Im one that have always thought mincer SERIOUSLY misplaced in stealthwars).

/Dracus

 

[Kinetix]

Haha...when all else fails, exagerate! This is one of the reasons why classes are wrongfully fixed. Ppl exagerate to make a point...

Imo mincers have a LOT of tools available. So not sure where, if at all, they should look to fix. No they dont have high dps...But what they lack in killability they make up for in SURvivability(Please excuse the made up word ).

Not all classes are about killing you know?!

If anything they should add some kinda healing to mincers and remove stealth(yes Im one that have always thought mincer SERIOUSLY misplaced in stealthwars).

/Dracus

And ofc you have a mincer and you play one to support you theory

 

[Jai13]

imho give minstrels insta AE mezz and if your lucky lower the cast time on ae mezz will sort out their groupable abilty while not nerfing sorcerers who will still be high DPS chars. without minsterls in grps were losing AM SoS speed 6 which all hib and most if not all mid grps run with. but all this is imo so feel free to flame

 

[Kahvi]

Give 1 of these to mincers: Banelord, Battlemaster, Endregen, Root or NS a wtf give em all tbh we are soooo gimped anyways.

 

[Belomar]

and the 5 sec cast rate on mezz ffs come on .............. watch a bard mezz peeps faster than a sorc most of the time

Earth to TheSearcher. Bards are primary CCers, Minstrels are not. Furthermore, Sorcerers are casters, and will typically have 50+ more dexterity than Bards, and will thus cast significantly faster. If you get outmezzed by a Bard with castable mezz, it's not your class but you who sucks.

 

[Andrilyn]

Give 1 of these to mincers: Banelord, Battlemaster, Endregen, Root or NS a wtf give em all tbh I am soooo gimped anyways.

Fixed!

 

[Remem]

Minstrels - My Thoughts

Minstrels used to be a very powerful a versatile class, providing power, speed and heal songs for XP groups. These days with FOP, Heal Fonts and no need for speed minstrels have become subclass in PvE groups. There needs to be a boost to the effectiveness of our songs and this goes for skalds and bards too. Our songs were good in classic/SI but now they are no longer up to par due to other abilities brought into the game. Mythic need to address this situation so minstrels are viable in the few XP groups actually remaining in the game.

Minstrels are powerful pet classes at high level, a high realm rank minstrel can hold a level 60+ pet and do many TOA artefacts with just a bot and a pet. This is fine, however the pet use is limited in RvR by poor resist rates, cumbersome control of pets (Twisting) and the fact you loose stealth/ablative effectivly..Mythic need to address the use of pets in RvR because many minstrels don't even bother to use one..A system for example could be introduced that when the pet is level 50 or lower a sorcerer like charm system is used so there is no pulsing charm used. This would allow us to stealth and use speed/ablative whilst not giving us a very overpowered pet.

RvR
Minstrels used to be one of the best classes in the RvR scene; however we have been passively "nerfed" time and time again without any attention being given to our class. The classes power is based on timers, with abilities being down we are an easy kill for any semi decent assassin. Assassins who can easily see us for a huge distance because of our sub-par stealth and have opening attacks (2 handed PA) / de-buffs and poisons leaving the minstrel weak and an easy kill.
Many of the arguments against minstrels, for example chain armour/ablative etc are old and outdated, a 70 damage absorb every 6 seconds is close to useless in today’s fast moving high dps bursting RvR scene.

Minstrels used to rely on there direct damage spells to do a bulk of there damage due to poor weapon skill (which means assassins evade us a lot and even more once with are debuffed to hell) however with the introduction of CL resists minstrels find this damage to be insufficient where most opponents are running with 36% body resist. My Suggestion would be to let the cleric acuity buff affect charisma or to change the DD's to a less prominent damage type, for example spirit or matter.

A minstrel was also needed in every group in the past, however now minstrels are unwanted in groups due to ineffective interrupts compared with other classes and not enough unique RA's to make minstrels worth while grouping. Our ML lines are useless for groups and just force the minstrel into the world of stealth, where now we are subpar opponents against any hard hitting/debuffing assassin.

We don't have any counters for our main enemies (assassins) we are fully debuffed whilst they still have full stats and its not uncommon for an assassin to evade 5/6 hits in a row. Many minstrels are in despair at every coming patch and with class love being handed out left right and centre minstrels feel old/outdated and left behind.

I suggest the following to improve the class
- A new Pet system (as mentioned above)
- Some form of debuff reset (remedy?) or a counter debuff (insta) for dex/quick and weapon skill (this would not affect casters as much but would help us be able to complete with the new strong assassins)
- Charisma buffable or moved to a new damage line
- Some form of group love which makes us wanted in groups again with out making us overpowered in solo play. (Banelord)
- Update of the values of Heal/Power song to make them an effective alternative to FOP
- An increase in the value of the minstrel ablative (100/6 seconds)

Regards
Gamah
RR9 Minstrel Prydwen/Excalibur Cluster


- Please do not flame, if you have counter arguments put them forward as well thought out posts with a good reason for argueing the point.

Why do u even mention bards need a boost together with skald/mincer?
The similiarities with a bard and skald/mincer is equal to necromancer - skald/mincer

 

[Zoia]

Why do u even mention bards need a boost together with skald/mincer?
The similiarities with a bard and skald/mincer is equal to necromancer - skald/mincer

I wish Mythic knew that too. If they did, skalds would have something other than acuity cap on their champ weapon and epic armour.

 

[rampant]

mincers deffo need a dps increase.

I think one thing alb groups forget is the speed issue - so many times when running in a group (not as a mincer) we get reared or side-on'd by a mid or hib group. When you analyse what the enemy do - take for example mid, they run on speed 6 equivalent with skald / end regen - and so many alb groups run only with sorc speed (4!!!) so we quickly get outpaced by enemy groups - the enemy groups can and do choose when and where to engage, thus leaving the alb groups in a highly undefendable position.

i would think that there are 2 ways to redo a mincer -

1. stealther killer - give access to mos / increase dps or shorter timer on dd's - let the lone mincer compete
2. group char - remove stealth and give access to a groupable line (healing OR interrupts etc) - give access to banelord or perfector - THINK what a group mincer could be.

but mythic will never do these changes, and the solo mincer will always be left on the edge of battle circling for an opportunity rather than taking the fight to the enemy (but i love my mincer and it is my fav char )

 

[Dalilama]

Our ML lines are useless for groups

sry but cant ressist to flame some but are you stoned?

 

[Ballard]

I do agree that sojourner is the best ml line for groups! I mean who else is going to supply water breathing

 

[Kagata]

be warned tho if mincers get an upgrade skalds will probably do too charisma buff would be deadly on a skald + if they get banelord and they are 2h ouch!

 

[Gamah]

sry but cant ressist to flame some but are you stoned?

No i'm not, warlord and soj are nothing compared with battlemaster/banelord.

 

[necromania]

agree with ppl above, a good idea could be to change the Dps type of dd's I.E change it from body to spirit/cold/matter instead. as ALL hibs/mids will have body on 26% cause of sorc+caba lifetap :> that kinda makes us do 0 dmg lol :>

and give some kind of Dps boost anyway cause DD's are doing way too low dmg..

and dont flame in here plz :> gamah made a good thread this time /Hug

/Freggy

 

[Remem]

Earth to TheSearcher. Bards are primary CCers, Minstrels are not. Furthermore, Sorcerers are casters, and will typically have 50+ more dexterity than Bards, and will thus cast significantly faster. If you get outmezzed by a Bard with castable mezz, it's not your class but you who sucks.

Yes cause there is no bard on entire hib with lull on quickbar or

 

[costaslev]

First of all, since noone will know me, my main is a minstrel called Hydor. Generally I agree we minstrels need some boost. I saw some ideas I liked and some I didn't. Here is what I am thinking

-MLs: I am happy with Warlord. Why go Sojouner? That's good for scouts only in my opinion. Warlord has a lot of nice things. ML2 10% endurance, power and health heal! I wouldn't change that even if I could. ML3 scare pets, very nice at times as well, ML7 Reducing DOTs, ML10 25% melee absorb in theory at least. I think these are he best of all uber ten. Well, I think I am ok with my MLs so let Battlemaster and Banelord aside, I don't think that's what we need.

-Pets: Aye, playing with pets is a pain. I never do anymore. I always hated them to be honest. Getting better at using pets isn't going to give as anything anyway when you have necros with Damage Shield and classes with ML9ed pets. And don't expect to get an ML9ed sally! That's sick, there has to be a limit to what you can do. If that happens next thing you ll see is four minstrel posts a day in FH like: Doing Battler Malice etc etc, feel free to join for credit! And if you are RR6+ and you like playing with a red charmed pet to roam in TOA roll a necro or something ffs. Or just get your red and do what you do. It's already powerful enough.

-Stealth: About removing stealth, what did they remove from other classes to remove stealth from minstrels for adding something else? I ve spent infinite hours to learn how to play stealthed since I never used it before 50 or at not Frontier zones since it sucks! Why take something away from me I ve worked so hard on? I don't think that's a good option.
About gettting access to MoS. Hmm, you need IP, SoS, Purge... don't you need AM as well? Isn't that too much already? Don't other classes have to be superior to our class in some line? Low stealth is how it is and how it should stay. Hiding from groups is good enough. If you want to hide from stealthers make one!

-Defence: I am not that sure about that but don't expect to get any better at defence when you build templates with 40 DEX or less. Well, most minstrels go slash for Battler Malice etc, so they make templates with 100 STR, 75 CHAR as much CON and HITS as possible so what is left outside? DEX. I believe this class was designed to be thrust specced. I am thrust, so I got DEX capped and decent STR. I am not that sutisfied with it to be honest but I block once every two or three fights and Evade once or twice in most fights. And that's in RvR. In PvE it's much much better. The point is.. Better not ask something fixed that we can fix ourselves. So forget about shield spec. Let's just ask for better abla. Now that paladins get it as well... Come on, it's like saying if you got a minstrel... That's life, bad luck. Just delete him. Don't get me wrong here, I don't mind my pally having abla, that's uber. Hell can I have a fireball as well? But then what's minstrel special at? Not that our abla is that much of an asset as it is anyway. That's something that could be a bit boosted.

-Offence: Now that's where we are really crap. We have two Direct Damage spells. Instant, that's uber but... too low damage. Compare it to a caster's damage and it's a joke. But then we have melee as well. However that's almost a joke as well. They can't really make up for each other for a decent output. That's something we really need some boost at. Caster version, melee version I don't care. I just hate fighting a RR1 shadowblade when I am ML10 Warlord and almost RR5 with IP2 and praying to live long enough for someone to come around and kill him/her after I am dead of course. Consider this, in an one on one fight against a stealther you ll never get to hit first. You have crap defence, crap melee and after you realize what's going on you are at 60% (best case senario) and debuffed! Ok, they have to be stronger than minstrels but this is unfair. I mean you don't stand a chance. Better hit SoS and get the hell out of there. Hell, I had heal Proc, SOM up, champ melee resist up, abla up, IP2 and all MLs available and I got killed by a RR1 assassin so many times I am thinking I should just delete myself and get over with it.

-Grouping: I can't think of anything that would make us really wanted to a group that we already have. Mezz=sorcerer Heal=cleric Damage=Not minstrel etc. I don't think it's nice taking somebody's job anyway. They just need to give as a new job since all are taken. Removing Speedwrap effect for instance. AOE stun? Converting enemy FoPs, FoHs etc? Too powerfull to have? Well, that would make us wanted wouldn't it. And for PvE they could just give a move group to ground target ability mini escape sort of thing or something instead of distraction! By the way has anyone ever found a use for that crap abilitty? Anyway, the point is that giving you something you already have is not a good idea. Make you stronger so that you can take someone's place is not the way I want my minstrel improved. You can think of a lot of abilities to give to a character if you are willing to. But if you just don't want to be bothered with it you ll just change a factor in an equation!

And about someone who said that not all classes are meant to kill. Ok, what do you think minstrels are meant to do then? Heal? CC? What? Run away? Aye that would get you loads of xp/rps. Is it too much to ask for the ability to do what almost everyone can do? We just have a lot of utilities and no real power. Doing a little bit of everything but nothing well enough doesn't get you anywhere. People will always prefere the expert for the job!

Last thought: paladins will get a self STR buff. Can we get a self Char buff? (I really loved that idea) No? Ok, maybe as RR5 ability then?