Merry Xmas the Israeli Way

[Jeremiah]

I don't think negotiation is going to work.

On one side of the table there is Israel, which wants to protect its population (which contains both Palestinian and Jew), its borders and over all its independence. I've seen nothing to suggest it wants to annex the Gaza strip.

On the side you have a government who is determined to destroy Israel and claim the land as their own.

What is there to negotiate? Israel to stay on their side of the border as long Hamas stop firing? I think we know how that works out. Tit-for-tat skirmishes aside, I don't have any confidence at all that Hamas are capable of respecting Israel's right to existence.

There's no point arguing "Well, Hamas do x only because Israel do Y", because Hamas' starting point will always be "Israel should not exist".

 

[Chronictank]

I don't think negotiation is going to work.

On one side of the table there is Israel, which wants to protect its population (which contains both Palestinian and Jew), its borders and over all its independence. I've seen nothing to suggest it wants to annex the Gaza strip.

Not quite,
Palestinians want to return to their homes which they were forced out of (which they legally should be allowed to do already under the UN treaty), currently they are not allowed to. So palestinians under israel is flawed

The country has essentially been starved to the extent of a extemist party being elected to government rather than being a backstreet influence

now it is going to be a complete balls up because the situation will only get worse and personally i don't see how it can be resolved any time soon
It is in Hamas's favour to keep tensions up as it gets them more support, and Israel just plays into their games

 

[aika]

Palestinians werent even a people before 1947, they didnt have any inspiration for a country. They didnt even agree with the UN resolution that was dividing palestine into 2.
Many of them left because they were told so by the arab countries that invaded Israel in 1948.
We all know how that invasion ended, so its not solely the fault of Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War

 

[Chronictank]

Palestinians werent even a people before 1947, they didnt have any inspiration for a country. They didnt even agree with the UN resolution that was dividing palestine into 2.
Many of them left because they were told so by the arab countries that invaded Israel in 1948.
We all know how that invasion ended, so its not solely the fault of Israel.

1948 Arab?Israeli War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I didn't claim it was, i simply stated thats what they want

 

[aika]

well its not realistic, if 4 million palestinian refugees come to Israel it would cause a financial crysis and will degrade Israel to a 3rd world country.

It will also result in a demographical crysis which will result in even more violence because it will most likely cause a civil war.

I would be very happy if all this ended, do you think its fun to be drafted into army 4-5 times in a year? But sadly I dont see any solutions at this point, if there were any it was long ago in 1948 or 1967.

 

[Chronictank]

well its not realistic, if 4 million palestinian refugees come to Israel it would cause a financial crysis and will degrade Israel to a 3rd world country.

It will also result in a demographical crysis which will result in even more violence because it will most likely cause a civil war.

Regardless if you consider it realistic or not, that is one of their basic human rights i also think a phased reintegration is pretty realistic if they ever wanted that to happen. Which i cannot now because there are Israeli's living in the residences now, so what happens to them?

If the issue was dealt with earlier rather than later this would be a non-issue
In addition if the land that was given back to the palestinians wasn't flattened out of spite (knowing full well they couldnt afford to rebuild it) it may have provided a interim solution.

The palestinians aren't some barbarians hell bent on the destruction of Israel as much as it would be convinient to preceive them as such, they are just depserate so are going to the people who offer them aid, but as always this comes at a cost

 

[aika]

I can understand your points, but the problem is if we open all the borders of Gaza and remove all our forces from there, do you honestly think that Hamas will stop arming itself or firing rockets on Israeli towns?

I very highly doubt so, they use most of the money they get from outside (and you know full well that they do get financial support from Iran/Syria and they got financial support from EU in the past) to arm themselves instead of investing into the land they have atm and developing it.

Yes it might be a product of Israeli policy but it doesnt mean that we shouldnt do anything when our towns are attacked, especially when they were warned many times.

I do believe that Hamas has to be removed if we want to achieve any peace in the region in the future. How it should be removed I sincerely dont know.

We can argue like that until tomorrow, so I'm gonna go play some Medieval 2 instead

 

[dub]

There's no one to negotiate with in Gaza, if Hamas is removed and Fatah rule is restored in Gaza then we can negotiate with them.

i knew this would be the response , and when you ask hamas they got exactly the same reason.

not gonna bother anymore , if you cant see the flaws in the current modus operandi i cant help you to see them

 

[Zede]

There's no one to negotiate with in Gaza, if Hamas is removed and Fatah rule is restored in Gaza then we can negotiate with them.

I'll say it again, you really really really need to read Palestine by Joe Sacco.

But I guarantee you dare not read it. The same fear the grips you over these palestinian groups also stops you reading media such as this. And so is the way of things with people like yourself, but your not alone, millions of other fearful sheeple are eager to join your flock, and have.

 

[aika]

I'll say it again, you really really really need to read Palestine by Joe Sacco.

But I guarantee you dare not read it. The same fear the grips you over these palestinian groups also stops you reading media such as this. And so is the way of things with people like yourself, but your not alone, millions of other fearful sheeple are eager to join your flock, and have.

ITT: We base our opinions on biased books, without living in the region, studying some history or just going on a trip here.

 

[Hawkwind]

Why on earth should it be a surprise that after 6 months of this one sided cease fire that Hamas has choosen to fight back? How can anyone with half a brain cell seriously state that both sides are behaving immorally when it is clearly one side only?

Go back and read some of those link i have posted before you come back and post anymore rubbish about how its both sides. Its Hamas responding to non stop provocation from Israel.

Posting what rubbish exactly? Correcting your so called FACTS (like 300 million Arabs/Moors years in Spain/Arabs helping Palestine). Check your own posts.

Both side are behaving immorally. The fact that you cannot see that is rather odd but somewhat expected! Since when did retaliation become morally correct? Pretty sure both the Bible and Koran are pretty clear on the message of revenge. Although some clerics including those of Hamas bend certain passages to their own gain much as the Catholics did a thousand years ago inspiring hatred.

Anyway, it's wrong plain and simple. Rather than fire rockets they should be making statements in the UN and worlds press highlighting what Israel does. Fighting back just gives Israel the excuse for the next round. Sadly they will never learn.

As a famous man once said," an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind". Equally Ghandi proved that it is very difficult to fight a side that will not fight.

...Waiting for Tierk to respond with another round of anti British crap following the Ghandi reference.

 

[Zede]

ITT: We base our opinions on biased books, without living in the region, studying some history or just going on a trip here.

which is why you need to read the comic

 

[Chronictank]

@Hawkwind
While that may be true in this case Israel is very much in the wrong regardless what happened in the past, they broke the ceasefire not Hamas and subsequently they ruined what chance there was for peace at this point in time which is why i find it so difficult to understand Aika's point of view. All he has presented is rumour and conjecture, it is a fact that Hamas didn't fire any rockets for 6 months but Israel carried on their attacks, assasinations and air raids it has been widely reported in the media which is also why on this occasion Israel has been vilified (and quite rightly)
Second condition of the ceasfire was to open the crossings to gaza and extend the truce to the west bank, Israel did the exact opposite tighting its blocks on Gaza and cutting water and electricity on various occasions (to the extent power plants were shut down due to lack of fuel)

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7545636.stm
Backups:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/05/world/middleeast/05mideast.html

 

[tierk]

Posting what rubbish exactly? Correcting your so called FACTS (like 300 million Arabs/Moors years in Spain/Arabs helping Palestine). Check your own posts.

LOL you are a nonstop parrot. Read Post Number 112 and incase you cant read here are excerpts of the relevant parts.

300 Million Arabs!!

Originally Posted by Wiki
The Arab World refers to Arabic-speaking countries stretching from the Atlantic Ocean in the west to the Arabian Sea in the east, and from the Mediterranean Sea in the north to the Horn of Africa and the Indian Ocean in the southeast. It consists of 24 countries and territories with a combined population of 325 million people straddling two continents.

Will you STFU about the 300 million now?

The Moors.

In 711, a Berber and Arab army (known collectively as moros, Moors, by the Spanish), invaded and conquered nearly the entire peninsula. During the next 750 years, independent Muslim states were established, and the entire area of Muslim control became known as Al-Andalus. Meanwhile the small Christian kingdoms in the north began the long and slow recovery of the peninsula by Christian forces, a process called the Reconquista, which was concluded in 1492 with the fall of Granada.

Will you STFU about the MOORS now??


As for the Arabs helping the Palestinians out enough? I have been crystal clear about my thoughts on this. Clearly the leaders of the Arab world are not doing nearly enough. Also I have stated clearly that the leaders of these countries are not in any way representative of the views of the vast majority of their own populations. Could they do more? Yes!! Will they do more? Clearly NO!!

Posting Both side are behaving immorally. The fact that you cannot see that is rather odd but somewhat expected! Since when did retaliation become morally correct? Pretty sure both the Bible and Koran are pretty clear on the message of revenge. Although some clerics including those of Hamas bend certain passages to their own gain much as the Catholics did a thousand years ago inspiring hatred.

Once again trying to make this into a religious debate. The fact is that innocent people are getting killed because some prick wants to stay in power in Israel. The Palestinians are quite clearly being used to further the chances of an unpopular party in Israel at the next elections.

Anyway, it's wrong plain and simple. Rather than fire rockets they should be making statements in the UN and worlds press highlighting what Israel does.

LOL this one made me laugh out loud. Make statements to the UN?!?! You are kidding right? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!

As a famous man once said," an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind". Equally Ghandi proved that it is very difficult to fight a side that will not fight.

I am actually a big fan of civil disobedience, as it has proven to be most effective in the past. I am also a huge fan of Ghandi who has shown what can be achieved using peaceful rather then violent methods.

...Waiting for Tierk to respond with another round of anti British crap following the Ghandi reference.

Any chance you will answer any questions or you planning to just keep throwing mud in the hope that something will stick?

160 odd posts on this thread and you have contributed to that count but not in a single post have you answered even a single question I have asked, despite me having answering everyone of your points. Strange that isn’t it?

 

[Jeremiah]

Once again trying to make this into a religious debate. The fact is that innocent people are getting killed because some prick wants to stay in power in Israel. The Palestinians are quite clearly being used to further the chances of an unpopular party in Israel at the next elections.

It would seem to me that innocent people are being killed because of the war rather than a political party. And it would seem the war is happening because Israel is trying to protect itself by killing Hamas terrorists. (Hamas terrorists who seem to have no problem firing rockets indiscriminately towards innocent people in Israel?).

War is a terrible thing, I really hope it stops soon, that a cease-fire can be negotiated and people are able to live their lives in peace on either side of the border. I can't see at all how this war could be politically motivated, given that there seems to be substantial evidence to suggest otherwise.

(I don't think Hawkwind is trying to make this a Muslim v Jew issue, more trying to show that the major faiths of both Palestinian and Jew have clear things to say about the how people should react in such times)

 

[Chronictank]

War is a terrible thing, I really hope it stops soon, that a cease-fire can be negotiated and people are able to live their lives in peace on either side of the border.

A one sided cease-fire will never work, Hamas did give the cease-fire a chance the 6 months of no attacks is testemant to that.
But it is now only going to get worse, why would they agree to another one when Israel couldn't honour their word in the first?
They will just sell it as lies to their public and use it as fuel for more support futher solidifying their position.

Regardless of your opinon of Hamas or their "defence" (if you are going to use the term for Israel i dont see why we cant do it for the other side) methods, credit should be given where credit is due and in this instance Israel is the problem not the solution. Unless there is a major rethink in their policies, they are just going to make people more desperate in the region and hate will increase and more people will join extemist groups.
Especially since they are systematically taking out any law enforcement in the country, personally i hope a middle eastern power steps in or (as bad as it is to say) the Israeli army is obliterated, forcing the Israeli's to be a little less inclined to run in guns blazing

 

[Chronictank]

meh edit timer,
May i also remind you that by Israel's own definition their civilians are valid targets for attack
"anything affiliated with Hamas is a legitimate target,"
"Our definition is that anyone who is involved with terrorism within Hamas is a valid target. This ranges from the strictly military institutions and includes the political institutions that provide the logistical funding and human resources for the terrorist arm."

Even though the definition of terrorism is a bit flawed, the principle is the same.
As the majority of Israelis are affliated with or have been associated with the military they are valid targets

However if you take the definition from the rest of the civilised world (international law) a combatant is someone directly engaged in hostilities, both sides are attacking civilians

 

[tierk]

It would seem to me that innocent people are being killed because of the war rather than a political party. And it would seem the war is happening because Israel is trying to protect itself by killing Hamas terrorists. (Hamas terrorists who seem to have no problem firing rockets indiscriminately towards innocent people in Israel?).

Instead of saying it would seem why not actually post a link that backs up the claims that you and others have made in this thread. I have posted plenty of links that clearly backing up every point I am making, why don’t you or anyone else try and do the same instead of just saying it would seem.

War is a terrible thing, I really hope it stops soon, that a cease-fire can be negotiated and people are able to live their lives in peace on either side of the border.

Do you even know what a cease fire is? Do you understand that a cease fire entails both parties actually sticking to the terms of the cease fire? Why on earth should any Palestinian want to have another cease fire if the terms of that cease fire are only applicable to one side?

What did they get from the last cease fire? Hummm let me see: a continuation of the targeted killings that the cease fire was supposed to have put an end to, a tightening of the siege that the cease fire was supposed to have put an end to.....

See where I am going with this?

I don't think Hawkwind is trying to make this a Muslim v Jew issue, more trying to show that the major faiths of both Palestinian and Jew have clear things to say about the how people should react in such times

Well I got to say you sure are smarter than I am because after 160 odd posts I still can’t figure out what the div is trying to say. Apart from:

I don't know.

 

[Jeremiah]

meh edit timer,
May i also remind you that by Israel's own definition their civilians are valid targets for attack
"anything affiliated with Hamas is a legitimate target,"
"Our definition is that anyone who is involved with terrorism within Hamas is a valid target. This ranges from the strictly military institutions and includes the political institutions that provide the logistical funding and human resources for the terrorist arm."

Even though the definition of terrorism is a bit flawed, the principle is the same.
As the majority of Israelis are affliated with or have been associated with the military they are valid targets

However if you take the definition from the rest of the civilised world (international law) a combatant is someone directly engaged in hostilities, both sides are attacking civilians

I've got to say, I don't agree. If you are member of a terrorist organisation, I don't see how you can be "innocent" as long as you aren't engaging in terrorist activity.

Its like saying someone is a valid target if they shoot a solider, but if you take any other role, such as handling weapons, planning the event, opening your home to hide the killers, funding the organisation, I can't see how that makes you immune to the consequences of being a terrorist.

As for being an enemy combatant, that would require them to sit back and wait to for a rocket or bullet to be fired before responding. Lets put it in terms close to home. Thats like living in the 90's, the police knowing that an IRA terrorist was going to detonate a bomb in London, but not moving to nullify the threat (perhaps through killing the terrorist) until the bomb had actually exploded -therefore making the terrorist a combatant. In my view, having the intent is as good as engaging in hostilities.

Don't get me wrong, I know Israel are guilty of killing innocent people through their war campaign, and I don't believe its at all justified. I'm in the position where I believe they are right to safeguard themselves, but I don't agree at all with the heavy handed approach that doesn't discriminate between the innocent and "valid targets".

 

[Jeremiah]

Instead of saying it would seem why not actually post a link that backs up the claims that you and others have made in this thread. I have posted plenty of links that clearly backing up every point I am making, why don’t you or anyone else try and do the same instead of just saying it would seem.

It is not a claim, it is my opinion based upon what I have read in the news. If you would like me to back up my view about Israel merely protecting itself, the BBC report the Israeli Prime saying they will continue until the potential for rocket launching has been removed (BBC Link)

Do you even know what a cease fire is? Do you understand that a cease fire entails both parties actually sticking to the terms of the cease fire? Why on earth should any Palestinian want to have another cease fire if the terms of that cease fire are only applicable to one side?

So it would seem that Hamas claim that Israel broke the treaty due to continuing blockades. I can't have an opinion on that because I was not there, nor can I find any independent evidence to back that up one way or the other. Do you?

What did they get from the last cease fire? Hummm let me see: a continuation of the targeted killings that the cease fire was supposed to have put an end to, a tightening of the siege that the cease fire was supposed to have put an end to.....

See where I am going with this?

Well from this I would guess you mean both sides were guilty of breaking the cease fire. Unless targeted killings refer to Israel killing Gaza residents?

Are you pro-Gaza? Or pro-Hamas? I'm not asking so I can poke fun, or berate you. I'm just wondering if you feel the rocket attacks on Israel are justified? Do you believe they were an appropriate response to the blockades? I've already said I support Israel, but I don't support many of their actions. The latest strike on the high school is just horrific.

 

[Chronictank]

I've got to say, I don't agree. If you are member of a terrorist organisation, I don't see how you can be "innocent" as long as you aren't engaging in terrorist activity.

Its like saying someone is a valid target if they shoot a solider, but if you take any other role, such as handling weapons, planning the event, opening your home to hide the killers, funding the organisation, I can't see how that makes you immune to the consequences of being a terrorist.

Then on equal footing everyone in Israel is a valid target, therefore it is no longer a terrorist attack but a valid military action so have no reason at all to complain when rockets hit them as they invade and/or blockade another country

As for being an enemy combatant, that would require them to sit back and wait to for a rocket or bullet to be fired before responding

Not quite, a hostile action refers to everything directly related to the hostile action, whether it has been executed or not
i.e. simply holding a rocket launcher is regarded as a hostile act

As for "handling weapons, planning the event, opening your home to hide the killers, funding the organisation", they are under normal state of affairs where they are given due process like everyone else not murdered (yes it is murder killing someone without a legitimate trial).
And to remind you everyone harbouring hostiles is not doing it out of choice, would you say no to someone holding a gun if they knew where your family was?

Don't get me wrong, I know Israel are guilty of killing innocent people through their war campaign, and I don't believe its at all justified. I'm in the position where I believe they are right to safeguard themselves, but I don't agree at all with the heavy handed approach that doesn't discriminate between the innocent and "valid targets".

We are not discussing Israels past, we are discussing this incident where Israel broke the peace themselves so the "safeguarding themselves" is complete crap in this instance

 

[Jeremiah]

Then on equal footing everyone in Israel is a valid target, therefore it is no longer a terrorist attack but a valid military action so have no reason at all to complain when rockets hit them as they invade and/or blockade another country

I'm pretty sure there are people in Israel who are not involved in the army. I don't see Hamas being concerned with discriminating between them. I do see Israel letting those in specific areas know that an airstrike is inbound. I may just have Israel-tinted glasses on, but I've heard nothing like that from the other side.

Not quite, a hostile action refers to everything directly related to the hostile action, whether it has been executed or not
i.e. simply holding a rocket launcher is regarded as a hostile act

As for "handling weapons, planning the event, opening your home to hide the killers, funding the organisation", they are under normal state of affairs where they are given due process like everyone else not murdered (yes it is murder killing someone without a legitimate trial).

I'd agree, but both sides are at war. They believe its not murder, its killing a "viable target".

I don't believe Israel are right in just blowing up buildings, just as I don't agree with bombing in general. Far too many innocent people are killed.

And to remind you everyone harbouring hostiles is not doing it out of choice, would you say no to someone holding a gun if they knew where your family was?

I absolutely agree.

We are not discussing Israels past, we are discussing this incident where Israel broke the peace themselves so the "safeguarding themselves" is complete crap in this instance

I was talking about the present. I still see it as defence, correct me if I am wrong but it is their intention to destroy any possibility of rockets being fired into their country? There was peace the day before rockets were fired into Israel, and now there isn't peace.

Ok, I've talked enough.

 

[megadave]

I'm struggling to understand how Israeli's justify the bombings and killings of all these Palestinians at the moment. I recently just watched The Pianist (it's a film based on the momoirs of a jewish man living in the Jewish Warsaw ghetto during ww2) and it got me wondering...

Considering the Jewish people had to endure some of the greatest atrocities recorded in modern times, including being bombed themselves. They are pretty hasty on going on and bombing another nation themselves.

I know this battle isn't on the same level as the holocaust and WW2 but since those events play such an important part in their historical/cultural jewish conciousness then surely they should be stopping and thinking about what they are doing before killing so many people?

I mean, out of all the nations out their, you think Israel would be the last to resort to offensives so quickly.

 

[Chronictank]

I'm pretty sure there are people in Israel who are not involved in the army. I don't see Hamas being concerned with discriminating between them. I do see Israel letting those in specific areas know that an airstrike is inbound. I may just have Israel-tinted glasses on, but I've heard nothing like that from the other side.

And how do you know they are aiming at anything in particular?, noone has seen this supposid evidence which the attacks are based on under the guise it would hurt their operatives. Personally i doubt there is any evidence at all and they just use it as an excuse to destroy Palestinian infrastructure.
This time around its not even based on intelligence, they are assuming anyone who has anything remotely to do with the government is a valid target (how they know what a valid target is only the easter bunny knows), this includes schools, police, infrastructure etc... (Source) and claiming they are the bad guys, so those glasses must be a pretty opaque colour of red to say they aren't indiscriminately killing people
As for "letting people know", why would civilian casualties be so high if this was true? and please dont say "hamas use human shields", thats a beyond ridiculous allegation for an air strike. More than likely it is just propoganda as i have yet to see any evidence to support this claim, the very fact aid officials have no idea if an attack is coming supports the theory that it is just drivvel (source: Source)

I was talking about the present. I still see it as defence, correct me if I am wrong but it is their intention to destroy any possibility of rockets being fired into their country?

You are wrong, There was peace only on the Israeli side as Hamas didnt fire any rockets.
Israel regularly attacked Palestine and the country was still being starved of good and rescources like power, water and gas. Eventually they had enough and started firing back, so that is no defence at all Israel themselves instigated the (very predictable) reaction'

There was peace the day before rockets were fired into Israel, and now there isn't peace.

As above it was a one sided "peace"
Source is above somewhere i cba to find them again

 

[tierk]

So it would seem that Hamas claim that Israel broke the treaty due to continuing blockades. I can't have an opinion on that because I was not there, nor can I find any independent evidence to back that up one way or the other. Do you?

Well if you can only form an opinion about a subject if you are present at the time of the situation then it would be hard for anyone to form an opinion about anything. I wasn’t in Colombia, for example, but I am of the opinion that a hell of a lot of the world’s supply of cocaine is from there. I deduce this from reading across a host of news sources, watching news and generally keeping myself abreast of current affairs.

If you have to physically fly to Gaza to see what every news agency has been reporting since January 2006, when Hamas won the elections for the Palestinian Parliament, to form an opinion then I would say that maybe you need to widen your scope of reading and knowledge of current affairs.

This is an article from 2007......

Blockade drains life from Gaza - Times Online

If that isn’t good enough for you how about Human Rights Watch’s open letter to the PM of Israel which is a pretty clear indication of the humanitarian situation in Gaza.

Letter to Olmert: Stop the Blockade of Gaza | Human Rights Watch

Are you pro-Gaza? Or pro-Hamas? I'm not asking so I can poke fun, or berate you.

I am pro Palestinian. I believe in justice and peace for all the people of the lands of Palestine, not just for Jews. I cannot for one second understand how anyone in their right state of mind can seriously tell me that what has been going on in Palestine since the creation of Israel is just or fair.

I'm just wondering if you feel the rocket attacks on Israel are justified?

I firmly believe that the Palestinians have every right to fire as many rockets as they like at Israel, so long as Israel continues to occupy their lands illegally.

People don’t just wake up one morning and decide to start firing rockets.

People don’t just wake up one morning and strap a bomb to themselves because they didn’t have any sugar in their tea that day.

Cause n effect nice and simple. If you kick a dog enough times and he will bite you.

Do you believe they were an appropriate response to the blockades?

I don’t think you seem to understand that it isn’t a simple case of a blockade, that is just a small tiny part of the issues at hand: targeted killings, illegal occupation, settlements that have been condemned international as illegal, the lack of any control over their own day to day lives, no freedom of movement, the list is long.

The latest strike on the high school is just horrific.

Well quite frankly as a person who has kept abreast events in Palestine since the the invasion of Lebanon (1982) I am no longer surprised at what the Palestinians are subjected to nor am I surprised at the lack of any response in the western world to acts that are quite clearly against everything that they are supposed to stand for.

 

[Lamp]

Ultimately, if Israel were to ever be on the receiving end of chemical weapons attacks, or its very existence is threatened to the brink of extinction, it will use nuclear weapons.

 

[Marc]

YouTube - Children of Hamas

 

[Mey]

What a well balanced piece of media.

 

[Marc]

What a well balanced piece of media.

Indeed. I cant believe there are no isreali children with guns on a video ABOUT HAMAS

 

[Chronictank]

Indeed. I cant believe there are no isreali children with guns on a video ABOUT HAMAS

well if your going to show a propoganda reel you may aswell go the whole hog
personally i would have edited the video of them pulling kids out of the street to have them holding them up in a line in front of a tank
but 8/10 for effort