Merry Xmas the Israeli Way

[old.Tohtori]

The irony stands in any case as it's a religious celebration by default.

Without religion, no christmas, no gifts, nada.

Not to mention people get hellbent if it's not called christ-mass

But, i was making a humorous observation, not arguing it.

 

[Bugz]

The irony stands in any case as it's a religious celebration by default.

Without religion, no christmas, no gifts, nada.

Not to mention people get hellbent if it's not called christ-mass

But, i was making a humorous observation, not arguing it.

If Christianity was to die out, I would bet Christmas would stay.

So without religion, there would still be Christmas, gifts etc.

 

[tierk]

It's always been Iran. As for getting them in, they get them in through Syria and the Lebanon.

Paying for what weapons exactly? The stones that are hurled at the tanks or are you still insisting that the missiles are somehow magically exported from Iran via Syria and Lebanon, neither of which have a border with Gaza?

Ever heard of boats! Hamas operate out of West Bank, Gaza, Syria and Lebanon. They could move stuff by sea in small fast boats or via the Egyptian side into Gaza. This is where they were launched so presumably that's how they got in. Isreal patrols the waters but like the drugs war, where there is a will there is a way!

lol I think the important part to read is...

I don't know how they do it and don't pretend to either.

So actually this is not fact – Iran secretly sending missiles to Hamas - and you cannot find anything to back up what you are banging on about. If you had I am sure you would have enlightened us.

Do you read what I say and try to understand what it is I am saying before you respond? Do you read any of the links I post before you post? Just in case you missed it here is another one for you to read that tells you exactly where these missiles are manufactured, produced and fired from.

Israeli metal used for Kassam rockets | Israel | Jerusalem Post

Will this stop you bleating on about Iran now?

You know enough to make factually correct statements but don't know the difference between Jews and the state of Israel that was created 60 years ago

I have to qualify every single thing I post so as to make you understand what I am saying? Are you that incapable of using your God given wits to figure what I am saying?

I always fancied myself as someone that was pretty good at getting my point across but it seems you are going to be anal about every post I make on this subject.

The Crusaders where in the 'holy lands' for over 200 years, so what the Moors were in spain for nearly 400.

I will say this again seeing as you missed it the first time. When I referred to the Crusades in my previous post I am not inferring that the Jewish migration is another Crusade but rather using it as an example of how long it took the Arabs to finally remove the invaders from their lands.

Your statement does, however, show that: firstly, YOU KNOW NOTHING – the Moors where in Spain for over 700 years (718AD till 1492) sorry I am being anal like you now - and secondly you are only helping make my exact point, that no matter what span of time passes, eventually the invaders will be forced out.

Jews in the Palestine for 60 years, are you f*cking joking?

Hello again Mr. Anal. I don’t dispute the fact that there have been Jews living amongst the Palestinians in Palestine from long ago; I never have and never will.

What I will dispute at every turn is this myth that somehow the land of Palestine was some sort of wilderness that was empty until Jews immigrated there. The fact is that Jews only started arriving in any significant numbers during the early part of the 19th Century from Eastern Europe mostly.

It’s a myth that Jews like to make out as the truth - that they were in Palestine in any significant numbers prior to Britain taking over the mandate for Palestine.

Below is an excerpt from the following web site.

Gabriel Kolko - Israel: Mythologizing a 20th Century Accident - Transnational Institute

As you so clearly have a problem reading I have taken the liberty of quoting the important parts.

In 1893 there were an estimated 10,000 Jews in Palestine, 61,000 in 1920, and 122,000 in 1925. All of these figures are only the best-informed estimates; there were censuses in 1922 and 1931 only, and even the 1922 numbers are contested. But the general trend is beyond doubt and very clear. For every Jew who went to Palestine from 1890 to 1924, at least 27 went to the Western Hemisphere alone.

And

The British had always been in favour of Jewish migration and after 1933 it grew greatly—Jews were six percent of the Palestinian population in 1912 but 29 percent in 1935-- but now it was increasingly composed of Jews from Germany rather than Poland.

Clear enough yet for you?

I did, including the 300 million Arabs surrounding the state of Israel. I think you need to look up some population figures because 300 mill looks way too high. Palestine (4 mill), Lebanon (4 mill), Syria (20 mill), Jordan (6 mill), Saudi (27 mill) and Egypt (76 mill).

Ok, first off you where not talking about population at all but rather

As for the Arab's surrounding Israel. They can barely contain their hatred of each other let alone reach a common concencus on anything other than oil prices. They are so fractured by religious and tribal boundary's they will never get on.

After i have pointed out that as it stands today you are right but it wont always be this way. Also if must insist on finding out the population of the Arab world in precise terms because you think that in some way you are going to make some amazing point feel free to do so.

Let me get this straight, my being European means that we are associated with what the Nazi's did in WW II? You may want to re-think that one as is was Britain and her allies that fought against them! Or do your history books teach a new version of what happened? I know your beloved lunatic President has said it didn't even happen so maybe you have been taught incorrect facts and don't know any better!

Once again totally avoiding the question I am asking. At no point am I inferring anything about you being associated with the Nazi’s, this comment only cements my belief that you cannot read properly.

Why can’t you just answer my question? Why must the Arabs pay the price for a German – which is a European Country btw in case you have forgotten –crime?

About bringing Iran into this thread I will give you the same answer I gave Gorb, start another thread about Iran or Britain and the Nazi’s and I will happily post on there.

Secondly, who made the boundries up for those Arab countries and who put the Palestinians there? Prior to those borders being there many of the Arab tribes were nomadic.

Let me guess what you trying to say now. Until the British drew the lines on the map the Palestinians didn’t exist? Prior to Britain drawing their arbitrary lines Arabs didn’t exist? Or is it that as nomads they had no rights to claim the land they have lived on for thousands of years?

Again, the Jews were in that region long before Islam.

Once again trying to make this into an Islam issue this has nothing to do with Islam – this thread – and everything to do with Illegal Occupation.

Regarding The USA’s involvement, the fact is that if the Israeli’s where starved of money they would have to go forward with peace. All the time they are given money and arms the violence will continue.

Corrected for you.

 

[Lethul]

I can't help it, i'm sorry, really, REALLY sorry...but i just..must...point...out...the...irony!

Religious books, peaceful christmas.

For f*cks sake :lol:

I did see the irony, that's why i left out "peaceful Christmas" and added "peace".

 

[Lethul]

Is it the weather, food or something down there or why can't these countries seem to develop out of the medieval ages ?

 

[Chronictank]

splitting hairs but the Jews who moved into what is now Israel are not the same ones who lived there before hand (through heritage or otherwise, obviously there will be a minority who have ties going way back)
So technically speaking tierk is right (asuming the "new" ones are only there for 60 years i cba to look it up)

Is it the weather, food or something down there or why can't these countries seem to develop out of the medieval ages ?

Not with all trade/industry/economic mechanisms blocked, no

It's a lose lose situation for all concerned, i am surprised some extremist group didnt take charge of Palestine earlier with the state the country is forced to stay in. As someone mentioned previously, all it would take is one nuclear power to take the palestinians side to kick things off which would be a very bad thing for everyone not just Israel and Palestine

 

[tierk]

....So technically speaking

There is no technically about it. Its a fact that can be checked by numbers of immigrants arriving from all over Eastern Europe. There are accurate figures for this starting from around 1922 and it is possible to make estimates for dates previous to this.

 

[old.Tohtori]

If Christianity was to die out, I would bet Christmas would stay.

So without religion, there would still be Christmas, gifts etc.

Ofcourse, now. Not disbuting that christmas isn't celebrated because of family etc, but without the great evil of religion, there wouldn't be giftmas, santamas, or any mas-mas(spanish joke)

I did see the irony, that's why i left out "peaceful Christmas" and added "peace".

Aye, meant more towards the whole concept of anti-religion pro-christmas thing. Bit ironic, but enough of it, too much OT.

Ooh...another thread?

Is it the weather, food or something down there or why can't these countries seem to develop out of the medieval ages ?

I think it's because the resources have been harvested, lands taken, the borders set etc. Nothing left to conquer, take resources from. Like having only one mineral mine in an RTS when others are gallivanting with 30.

The conquerors made the "civilized" worlds of today. US, Britain etc. Albeit Britain had the good sense to f*ck the back off to their island after the rampage

 

[soze]

Is it the weather, food or something down there or why can't these countries seem to develop out of the medieval ages ?

Im not an expert but i do not think they really want to evolve to become what we think is civilised. Womans rights ect is not what they want look at Dubai they can have anything and everything they want but they still choes to live the Muslim way.

 

[Golena]

Traditionally then War has always been the biggest driver of technology.

We'd probably all still be living in the middle ages (or a cave) if it wasn't for our natural desire to beat the crap out of each other. Finding a technology that didn't come about in some form from trying to get one over on the other side is actually rather difficult.

I could also argue that it's quite likely that the "innocent" people involved in the killings probably knew what their house was being used for, and what was going on there. It makes much better newspaper stories when all the victims are innocent other than the one that actually pressed the button however. Not always true, but simply believing that if a newspaper says 5 innocents killed that they must of been completely uninvolved is just as wrong.

 

[Zede]

Is it the weather, food or something down there or why can't these countries seem to develop out of the medieval ages ?

the arab world kinda ignored the printing press when it came out in the late middle ages. The arab world had been the bastion of all the best "books" for a 1000 years, strange they shunned such a wicked idea to get your word around !

 

[Tasslehoff]

Not with all trade/industry/economic mechanisms blocked, no

Ah, because before Israel there was a wealth of technical geniality in those Palestine!

 

[Hawkwind]

So actually this is not fact – Iran secretly sending missiles to Hamas - and you cannot find anything to back up what you are banging on about. If you had I am sure you would have enlightened us.

Who provides the explosive? They make that from sand in Israel then? Get real! Iran supplies money and product. You bloody well know it. So what if the heavy metal casings are made in a back yard garage in Gaza. It's exactly what you'd expect.

Nice to see you reverted to name calling in your posts. Shows a lot.

regarding Spain we had a long thread about that in FH a while back not going to go through again. But they did not have the whole of Spain for 700 years, Northern Spain only 400! The other great Islamic myth is that it was a friendly takeover and that Islam was not spread by the sword. Again a myth! Suprised you have not mentioned that either.

I have to qualify every single thing I post so as to make you understand what I am saying? Are you that incapable of using your God given wits to figure what I am saying?

I always fancied myself as someone that was pretty good at getting my point across but it seems you are going to be anal about every post I make on this subject.

You make statements like Jews in Palestine for 60 years and 600 million Arabs surrounding Israel and then when someone corrects you they are being Anal. "We should have read between the lines" Fuck off! Learn to write what you mean instead of unqualified bullshit!

Note: Yes, I swear in posts but notice I'm not name calling you. Your entitled to your opinion and I respect that and I won't ever resort to personal attacks on you. Pity you can't argue/debate in a respectful manner.

 

[Hawkwind]

Im not an expert but i do not think they really want to evolve to become what we think is civilised. Womans rights ect is not what they want look at Dubai they can have anything and everything they want but they still choes to live the Muslim way.

Dubai is no like that at all. In fact it's getting worse for western expats here all the time. More and more going to jail for what we would consider petty crimes or not even a crime. Right now there is a British woman in jail after her Egyptian husband reported her for adultary. She could spend 18 months in jail before being deported.

There is a real undercurrent of hatred brewing in Dubai against Westerners. Its starting to show itself gradually just have to wait and see how it errupts or calms back down.

Earlier today they annonced no Music and Parties in Hotels due to what's being going on Palestine! Bearing in mind that alot of people booked these Hotel events months ago and many have travelled from all over the world to be here its absolutely mind blowing.

I'm off to a house party to see in the New Year.

Happy New Year all hope it will be a peacefull one

 

[Chronictank]

Ah, because before Israel there was a wealth of technical geniality in those Palestine!

Are you saying they are better off/on the par now?

More to the point where is the proof behind your comment?
You also are very unspecific to what you are refering to, palestine as we know it is not the same as the palestine that was divided after the British left (hence the whole debate about why didnt the powers that be take land that was their own to make Israel rather than take someone else's etc etc..) so it is very significant to which time period you are refering

I suspect however you are in over your head and just wanted to make cheap pot shots

Anyhoo off to get ready for new years shinnanigans, cya in the next itteration

 

[Tasslehoff]

Are you saying they are better off/on the par now?

Nope, I didn't

More to the point where is the proof behind your comment?
You also are very unspecific to what you are refering to, palestine as we know it is not the same as the palestine that was divided after the British left (hence the whole debate about why didnt the powers that be take land that was their own to make Israel rather than take someone else's etc etc..) so it is very significant to which time period you are refering

I suspect however you are in over your head and just wanted to make cheap pot shots

Unlike what you've done in this thread? Well, I can't be arsed to argue about anything today and probably not in the future anyway as I believe there are other fora that would be better suited, just disagreed with what you said

Anyhoo off to get ready for new years shinnanigans, cya in the next itteration

...

 

[aika]

Arabs don't give a shit about their "Palestinian Brothers". There are hundreds of thousands of Palestinians living in camps in Lebanon, Syria etc. and they are far worse of than the Palestinians in the occupied territories. The Arabs have been keeping the Palestinians like cattle in ghettos for 40 fucking years, denying them education, citizenship, right of movement etc.

Fucking hypocrites, all of them.

 

[aika]

You know nothing about how badly the Israelies have treated the palestinians for more than a generation. They have every right to fire as many rockets from as many mosques as they like. If just one, one arab nation openly declared full financial support for say Hamas, welcome to WW3. Be glad its just RPGs & molotov.

i would advise everyone to read "Palestine" by joe sacco. it opened my eyes years ago when 99% of the world press was biased towards the zionists.

thats funny that a citizen of one of the worlds biggest empires in the past and basically the fathers of Imperialism is on a high horse here.
The germans bombed you in 1940, then you killed around 600,000 citizens among which were 80,000 children during constant air raids on Germany and nearly annihilated a culture center towards the end of the war which had no impact whatsoever on the war effort (hi Dresden february 1945)
srsly gtfo

 

[aika]

tierk your 300 million arabs had lots of chances to take this land with force, too bad their armies cant win a single battle, even when they outnumber 30 to 1.

 

[- English -]

poor aika must sux being bombed on nye ;x ;P

 

[Hawkwind]

thats funny that a citizen of one of the worlds biggest empires in the past and basically the fathers of Imperialism is on a high horse here.
The germans bombed you in 1940, then you killed around 600,000 citizens among which were 80,000 children during constant air raids on Germany and nearly annihilated a culture center towards the end of the war which had no impact whatsoever on the war effort (hi Dresden february 1945)
srsly gtfo

Aika, I already made the point that it was Britain that drew up the borders and were respeonsible for putting the Palestinians there. No Arab country would give land up to help. Like you stated many including UAE put many Palestinian refugees into squalid camps. The UAE Palestinians were only given rights and resident status visa's in the late 70's. 20 plus years of living in shit camps. Arabs never cared about their plight and now it's just a cause celeb used to demonise the West. Something Tierk seems to enjoy more these days.

Not sure Britain was the the father of imperialism. Just a bit better at it than most. Loosing it was the price we paid for having the US and Russia as allies.

Why bring WW II into it again. I'm sure you already know it was the Germans who first bombed cities rather than purely military and industrial targets. Dresden was bad but then so was Coventry / Southampton / London

I hope you have peaceful New Year.

 

[tierk]

Who provides the explosive? They make that from sand in Israel then? Get real! Iran supplies money and product. You bloody well know it.

No I don’t bloody well know it. Weapons are smuggled in from Egypt, last time I checked; Iran doesn’t even have a diplomatic mission with Egypt. Why are you so determined to place Iran in the picture?

Why can’t you just admit that you are wrong?

regarding Spain we had a long thread about that in FH a while back not going to go through again.

I wasn’t the person that brought the Moors into this to try and make a point that was you; all I did was point out that by bringing this up you are only making my case stronger.

But they did not have the whole of Spain for 700years, Northern Spain only 400!

This is relevant how exactly? They were is Spain, quite clearly, for 700 years, I don’t make any claims to which part or all of Spain.

To be honest for someone that in one sentence says they don’t want to go through this – Moors discussion - again, you seem to want to keep coming back to this.

The other great Islamic myth is that it was a friendly takeover and that Islam was not spread by the sword. Again a myth! Suprised you have not mentioned that either.

Open another thread to discuss Islam and its spread and I will gladly discuss this with you. Why must you insist on trying to turn this into a debate about religion and Islam?

Why can you not answer just a simple question?

You make statements like Jews in Palestine for 60 years

I think that everyone else had pretty much figured this part out. To be honest I would have thought that the 60 years part would have been a clue considering that Israel didn’t exist until 60 years ago. Considering that you are such a font of knowledge about the Middle East as you have lived here for 8 years and have Arab friends and with all those papers that you read, i thought you would have been able to deduce that.

and 600 million Arabs surrounding Israel and then when someone corrects you they are being Anal. "We should have read between the lines" Fuck off! Learn to write what you mean instead of unqualified bullshit! .

READ.

The Arab World refers to Arabic-speaking countries stretching from the Atlantic Ocean in the west to the Arabian Sea in the east, and from the Mediterranean Sea in the north to the Horn of Africa and the Indian Ocean in the southeast. It consists of 24 countries and territories with a combined population of 325 million people straddling two continents.

Pity you can't argue/debate in a respectful manner.

All you have tried to do throughout is to try and twist what I say, lie, and squirm out of answering anything. You make statements about Arab unity like...

As for the Arab's surrounding Israel. They can barely contain their hatred of each other let alone reach a common concencus on anything other than oil prices. They are so fractured by religious and tribal boundary's they will never get on.

Then when you discover that all the New Year parties have been cancelled, in the UAE, as a sign of solidarity for Palestinians

Earlier today they annonced no Music and Parties in Hotels due to what's being going on Palestine! Bearing in mind that alot of people booked these Hotel events months ago and many have travelled from all over the world to be here its absolutely mind blowing.

I have spent the best part of 3 pages explaining and answering your posts – however off track and off topic - now answer the one question I have been asking you throughout my posts.

Why must the homeland for Jews be imposed on Arabs who quite clearly don’t want them? Seeing as Western countries love and support Jews and a State for them so much, why can’t they be given a homeland in say the USA or Germany, hell even England?

Arabs don't give a shit about their "Palestinian Brothers".

Arabs do give a shit about Palestinians, it’s their leaders – Arab leaders in general – that have this attitude. We all know how representative the leaders of the Arab world are of there people, what with all the free and fair elections that take place.

There are hundreds of thousands of Palestinians living in camps in Lebanon, Syria etc. and they are far worse of than the Palestinians in the occupied territories. The Arabs have been keeping the Palestinians like cattle in ghettos for 40 fucking years, denying them education, citizenship, right of movement etc.

Absolutely right, it is despicable the way they have been treated in some countries. Doesn’t mean that what your lot are doing in Palestine is right.

Also if you look at refugees all over the world, it is the same, they live in shitty little camps existing, merely existing, until someone someone’s interests are served by helping them – Darfur for example – and then highlighting their plight.

tierk your 300 million arabs had lots of chances to take this land with force, too bad their armies cant win a single battle, even when they outnumber 30 to 1.

They did pretty well in ‘73 until the USA stepped in didn’t they? Almost had you go nuclear as a result of “not winning a single battle”. Anyway totally irrelevant to the issue at hand and typical stuff that you post, designed only to get a rise, which it fails to every time.

They are not my Arabs by the way either, just plain Arabs.

Seeing as you also keep posting like you want to debate explain this?

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israel warns Hamas over rockets

Just incase you have the same reading problem as Hawkwind I have quoted the relevant part for you.

Some 50 rockets have been launched from Gaza in recent days, after the killing of three Hamas members by Israel.

Please note the part in Bold Italics and Underlined.

So lets get this straight, kill 3 Hamas men and then when they react to this, make out that it’s their fault, as they just randomly decided to launch rocket attacks against you.

The fact that you an election incoming in the next 6 weeks or so doesn’t have any bearing on this whole episode at all now does it? The fact that the current Kadima government is on the brink of losing the election, if you can go by opinion polls, to the right wing Likud Party – who are campaigning on a much more hard line attitude, in dealing with the Palestinians, then the Kadima party – has no bearing on this whole incident right?

 

[aika]

Hamas is a terrorist organisation (at least it is considered so here), so their members will get killed pretty much each time the IDF wants.
Anyways my point was that I seriously dont care who is wrong or right, as there's no probably more than one truth and everyone is wrong in some way (yes including the trigger happy IDF), and in my opinion there can be no peace in the Middle East as long as Israel exists. Now since I live here I will do my best to defend the country.

Also yeah my posts were somewhat angry but thats what happens when you're woken up by an air raid siren at 8 am and then a rocket hits 200 meters from your house :x
The good point is that we dont have uni until at least Sunday ;>

I'm not really sure it has something to do with elections since the Minister of Defense who will get most of the credit is from the labour party.

In the 1973 the Egyptians gained victories only in the first 1-2 days, but thats due to heavily outnumbering in the crossing of the Suetz Canal. By the end of the war the Israelis were well within Egypt, reaching a point 101 kilometers from its capital, Cairo. I'm quite sure USA intervened so Egypt wont take so much damage.
On the Northern front with Syria, the same happened, at the onset of the battle, 180 Israeli tanks and 60 Israeli artillery pieces faced off against approximately 1,300 Syrian tanks. Yet they still were repeled after a few days and the war ended with Israel reaching 40km from Damascus. The only aid we got from USA was material aid, but the arab armies got the same from The Soviet Union. Anyways thats off-topic.

 

[tierk]

Hamas is a terrorist organisation (at least it is considered so here), so their members will get killed pretty much each time the IDF wants.

If that is the case the case why should you expect them - Hamas - to respect any cease fire when you are quite clearly stating that Israel won’t respect one themselves?

Truce takes effect between Israel and militants in Gaza - CNN.com

Read that article and see what the terms of the cease fire were supposed to be.

The deal is supposed to last six months. The terms stipulate that Palestinian militants stop attacks on Israel. Israel, in turn, will halt raids inside Gaza -- and gradually ease its economic blockade if the truce holds. Israel also has stressed that this week's cease-fire agreement is one step in a larger process that must include the release of Cpl. Gilad Shalit, an Israeli soldier who has been held hostage by militants in Gaza for two years.

So:

1. Stop militant attacks on Israel - which they did.
2. Israel would also stop attacks in Gaza - which they haven't
3. Open the border crossings gradually - never happened.

So where in this so called cease did Israel fulfil any of its obligations and did they seriously expect Hamas or whoever is holding him to release Shalit as a good will gesture?

in my opinion there can be no peace in the Middle East as long as Israel exists.

Something we can agree on. Well partially, I believe that in its current for it cannot exist - as a strictly Jewish State. There are many millions of Palestinians who have been removed from their lands – forcibly or otherwise – who must have their situations addressed in a way that is fair to them. Should the majority of these wish to return home, this will drastically change the demographics of the country, hence why I say in its current form.

Now since I live here I will do my best to defend the country.

Well since you expect people to understand that you will fight to defend the country do not expect any less from the Palestinians. After all it is their country and more so then yours.

Don’t be upset when they use whatever means they can to fight you also. It is their right to do so, as you have so eloquently stated your rights.

I'm not really sure it has something to do with elections since the Minister of Defence who will get most of the credit is from the labour party.

It has everything to do with the elections as the Defence Minster is in coalition with Kadima and his party is the one that is likely to suffer the most losses to Likud. If he looks tough and the coalition can seem to be acting tough they hope to knock some of the wind out Likud.

 

[aika]

they dont look even half as tough with those air raids, most people in Israel want a serious ground operation that will destroy the Hamas entirely, this is unlikely to happen with all their reluctance. I'm quite sure that most will also support a Dresden style carpet bombing operation to strike fear and terror, so they will think twice before launching any rocket on Israel again. But the world wont allow this.

Also seriously Israel's political situation is kinda lol atm, I have absolutely no reason to go the election as all potential leaders suck.

Yeah I do expect them to fight, I wasnt the one starting the thread about it. I just said that they shouldn't run and cry like little girls when we return fire.

 

[tierk]

Aika, I already made the point that it was Britain that drew up the borders and were respeonsible for putting the Jews there.

Corrected this for you.

No Arab country would give land up to help

Palestine was not an Arab country? But you are right they didn’t want to give them Palestine either.

Like you stated many including UAE put many Palestinian refugees into squalid camps. The UAE Palestinians were only given rights and resident status visa's in the late 70's. 20 plus years of living in shit camps.

The countries in the Gulf all got independence from Britain in the 1970-1971 time frame. So that would be 20 odd years of living in shit camps under British rule?

Arabs never cared about their plight and now it's just a cause celeb used to demonise the West

It’s not that they never cared, they have never had the power to do anything about it. But as i stated in one of my first posts, the time will come when they will – every dog has his day.

Something Tierk seems to enjoy more these days.

How is stating that what is happening in Gaza as immoral have anything to do with demonising the west? If you feel under attack by what i am posting on here have a thought for what the people that are really under attack are feeling in Gaza!

 

[tierk]

they dont look even half as tough with those air raids, most people in Israel want a serious ground operation that will destroy the Hamas entirely, this is unlikely to happen with all their reluctance.

You cannot destroy a peoples aspirations, you can only destroy a vehicle for those aspirations. They want to be free of the Israeli yoke.

I'm quite sure that most will also support a Dresden style carpet bombing operation to strike fear and terror, so they will think twice before launching any rocket on Israel again. But the world wont allow this.

This is the problem you see? You would like to try and bomb them even more and think that this is a solution. It isnt, you have been bombing shooting and killing them for fuck knows how many generations and it has failed to stop them trying to kill you at every chance. No amount of bombs will stop them only a serious attempt at addressing all the issues at hand will.

EDIT** Off out to the bach for a couple of hours.

Hope everyone had a Happy New Year.

 

[Hawkwind]

Corrected this for you.

Maybe we should have left it under the Turks who were allied with Germany. Would have been interesting come WW II.

The countries in the Gulf all got independence from Britain in the 1970-1971 time frame. So that would be 20 odd years of living in shit camps under British rule

Strange how in some Arab countries the camps still exist. The Lebanon for instance. Some figures for you.

A Palestinian Refugee Camp? - Harvard - Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs

According to that a third of the 4 million estimated Palestinian refugees live in Arab countries. Mostly still in camps where they cannot work and are not allowed citizenship. In fact Jordan is the only country that has given any of them citizenship. Great progress since the Demonic Brits left!

It’s not that they never cared, they have never had the power to do anything about it. But as i stated in one of my first posts, the time will come when they will – every dog has his day.

I just don't believe the Arabs care enough to do anything about it. They have done virtually nothing about the refugees despite the riches of the oil and gas. Certainly it may change in the future but right now the will does not exist.

How is stating that what is happening in Gaza as immoral have anything to do with demonising the west? If you feel under attack by what i am posting on here have a thought for what the people that are really under attack are feeling in Gaza!

Why would I feel under attack. I objected to certain phases and words you use like Crusaders. yet again, your completely one sided in your damnation of the parties involved. Both side are acting completely without morals not just the Israeli's.

 

[Mey]

Ultimately,

 

[tierk]

Mostly still in camps where they cannot work and are not allowed citizenship. In fact Jordan is the only country that has given any of them citizenship.

There is a good reason that they dont get given Arab citizenship in other countries because then the attempts by Israel to say that they are no longer refugees and therefore the right of return issue becomes a non issue.

Great progress since the Demonic Brits left!

Its comments like this that just show what a tit you can be at times with your posts. Once again trying to put a twist on what i am saying. If anyone is demonising anyone on this thread its you.

I just don't believe the Arabs care enough to do anything about it.

Wrong again. Its just the governments that are like this and not the general public.

They have done virtually nothing about the refugees despite the riches of the oil and gas. Certainly it may change in the future but right now the will does not exist.

What should they do about the refugees? So that Israel no longer has to deal with the issue of Palestinian right of return in any future settlement? It wont happen.

In places like the UAE and Qatar if they gave citizenship to all the Palestinians living here they would outnumber the local people and i am pretty sure you know this having lived in the region for so long.

They gave citizenship in Jordan because the land is orignally part of Palestine but compliments of the British and French - Sykes - Picot Agreement - it was designated as Trans-Jordan.

With the break-up of the Ottoman Empire at the end of World War I, the League of Nations and the occupying powers chose to redraw the borders of Southwest Asia. The ensuing decisions, most notably the Sykes – Picot Agreement gave birth to the French Mandate of Syria and British Mandate of Palestine. More than 70% of the British Mandate of Palestine was east of the River Jordan and was known as "Transjordan"..

I see that once again you fail to answer my question, i wonder why?