Merry Xmas the Israeli Way

[tierk]

I objected to certain phases and words you use like Crusaders.

So now its a sin to use the word Crusade even when using the Crusades as a reference?

All you have done throughout this thread and pretty much every thread regards to this issue is try and turn it into some sort of religious debate about the rights and wrongs of Islam. In the end you have only made yourself look retarded as you clearly dont have all the facts to hand.

yet again, your completely one sided in your damnation of the parties involved.

Once again i ask do you actually know what has brought this whole episode up again? Do you actually read any links i post or failing that actually trying to find out what is really going on in the Occupied Territories?

The whole thing has been instigated by the Israeli's. They killed a load of Hamas men just prior to the cease fire finishing - they have been doing this non stop throughout the whole six months of the cease fire anyway - they have not lifted the siege of Gaza as per the terms of the cease fire also.

Why on earth should it be a surprise that after 6 months of this one sided cease fire that Hamas has choosen to fight back? How can anyone with half a brain cell seriously state that both sides are behaving immorally when it is clearly one side only?

Go back and read some of those link i have posted before you come back and post anymore rubbish about how its both sides. Its Hamas responding to non stop provocation from Israel.

 

[Gorbachioo]

AFP: Iran shuts down leading reformist newspaper

"He said the ban was ordered over "a piece yesterday which justifies the Zionist regime's crimes against humanity in Gaza and portrays the Palestinian resistance as terrorists who cause the deaths of children and civilians by taking up position in kindergartens and hospitals."

 

[Platin]

Go back and read some of those link i have posted before you come back and post anymore rubbish about how its both sides. Its Hamas responding to non stop provocation from Israel.

Hamas was the only part in this conflict who had incentive to initiate a new violent period, that is what they thrive from. Same time they never really held on to the cease-fire, as early as 6 of november they were launching rockets into Israel. Before that, they had members arrested by the israelis while planting road-side bombs. They wanted this, all of it, because there is no better way for a terroristorganization to gain public support. Fatah appears weak since they can't do anything, so the only ones the public can rely on are Hamas.

They also gain both more money and stronger sympathies from the outside due to this. This "war" is basically like one of those commercials on prime-time TV during the world cup in football for Hamas, if a PR-firm would evaluate it they would consider it a wise investment. All they needed to pay was a couple of missiles, because let's face it - they can always find the members they need when things are like this.

 

[aika]

so encouraging suicide is moral acting? or firing rockets on schools on purpose?

seriously tierk you should read your own posts sometimes, according to you it sounds like Hamas is a charity non profit organisation that is taking orphaned children and gives them food.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan

This is an interesting read.
like I said many times before I'm all for a palestinian country, they can have the west bank and gaza strip. We make a nice border with them and close it, they can have their own independent state then. Notice the word independent, meaning no trade/entry/electricity/food/water from Israel. They have a border with Jordan and Egypt, so they can trade with them if they want.
It will also be much easier for Israel this way I guess, since if rockets are fired from their territory it will be considered as an act of agression by a country, so we can wage total war instead of fighting guerilla warfare.
I wonder how long they will last like that.

 

[tierk]

Same time they never really held on to the cease-fire, as early as 6 of november they were launching rockets into Israel.

Read the following link.

Israeli Incursions, Hamas Rockets Disrupt Gaza Truce

Violence along the Gaza Strip during the past two days has raised questions about how long a ceasefire between Israel and the Islamic militant group Hamas may hold up in the Gaza Strip. Hamas militants fired a number of rockets into southern Israel after Israeli troops killed six Palestinians this week. VOA's Luis Ramirez reports from Jerusalem.

I have posted quite clearly lots of links for reading on this thread that makes it abundantly clear that for every rocket fired invariably Israel has done something to provoke that response.

 

[tierk]

so encouraging suicide is moral acting? or firing rockets on schools on purpose?

Last suicide attack from Hamas was in the beginning of 2005.

As for deliberatly targetting schools i think we both know that that is utter bullshit as the rockets they are using are about effective as a gun with no bullets - in terms of targetting. They are lucky if they hit the right city let alone for them to target schools.

seriously tierk you should read your own posts sometimes, according to you it sounds like Hamas is a charity non profit organisation that is taking orphaned children and gives them food.

First off i do read my posts very carefully as i write and edit it in word first and then copy, paste and make finally adjustments on here.

On the point about Hamas charity work its funny that you should say that because that is exactly what a large part of Hamas's daily work is, again i am pretty sure that you know this already.

I have read about Black September before and know of it very well - another sad day in recent Arab history.

like I said many times before I'm all for a palestinian country, they can have the west bank and gaza strip. We make a nice border with them and close it, they can have their own independent state then.

This will never happen and i think we both know this.

 

[tierk]

AFP: Iran shuts down leading reformist newspaper

"He said the ban was ordered over "a piece yesterday which justifies the Zionist regime's crimes against humanity in Gaza and portrays the Palestinian resistance as terrorists who cause the deaths of children and civilians by taking up position in kindergartens and hospitals."

Believe it or not - i know this will be a tough one for you to comprehend - but not everyone in Iran is a huge fan of the governments support for Palestine.

There is a segment, often vocal, of society that express serious reservations about giving money to Palestine when 40% of our own population live below the poverty line.

 

[Jeremiah]

Read the following link.

Israeli Incursions, Hamas Rockets Disrupt Gaza Truce



I have posted quite clearly lots of links for reading on this thread that makes it abundantly clear that for every rocket fired invariably Israel has done something to provoke that response.

Erm it might just be me but even that link you posted suggested that Israel does not start the confrontations. From that story, the six Palestinians were suspected militants who were found near some tunnels which Israeli troops were trying to close down. Don't get me wrong, I know that there's no official confirmation they were militants but hey, there's no official register of militants. If you are standing with a smoking gun, you can't expect anyone to think you are innocent of firing it.

 

[tierk]

Erm it might just be me but even that link you posted suggested that Israel does not start the confrontations. From that story, the six Palestinians were suspected militants who were found near some tunnels which Israeli troops were trying to close down. Don't get me wrong, I know that there's no official confirmation they were militants but hey, there's no official register of militants. If you are standing with a smoking gun, you can't expect anyone to think you are innocent of firing it.

Part of the terms of the orignal cease fire was no more incursions in Gaza. So even if they are militants, which as you say is not proven, they shouldnt be there in the first place. As they are - Israeli's - then its safe to say that they are provoking the situation surely seeing as they are not keeping up their side of the deal?

Also a tunnel isnt exactly a smoking gun is it? Could it be they - Hamas - are using the tunnels to bring in the basic supplies that a person needs to live - food, water etc seeing as they have no other means of feeding the near 1.5 million people in Gaza?

EDIT** Everyone is a suspect militant nowadays, if you are walking on the beach you are a suspect, if you are in your house sleeping you are a suspect militant. Wherever someone is killed its reported as a suspected militant.

 

[tierk]

Our strategy was always to provoke the Arabs and get an appropriate response so we could attack and smash them.

Not a lot has changed it seems.

 

[aika]

lets not start quoting some of the arab leaders tbh, because it will pale in comparison.

 

[aika]

Also I'm quite sure that the palestinians that live under Israeli rule and have Israeli citizenship would prefer to keep their freedom of speech,religion and voting rights and not live under some kind of corrupt police state that will probably become of the Palestinian country.

(Considering all the countries in the region are some shade of a police state, except Lebanon, I'm quite sure thats whats gonna become of them as well, but I will be happy if I'm proven wrong).

 

[Zede]

thats funny that a citizen of one of the worlds biggest empires in the past and basically the fathers of Imperialism is on a high horse here.
The germans bombed you in 1940, then you killed around 600,000 citizens among which were 80,000 children during constant air raids on Germany and nearly annihilated a culture center towards the end of the war which had no impact whatsoever on the war effort (hi Dresden february 1945)
srsly gtfo

where ever the FUCK you are from, thank your imperial fathers - otherwise you wouldnt be reading this you stupid tit

 

[aika]

where ever the FUCK you are from, thank your imperial fathers - otherwise you wouldnt be reading this you stupid tit

I didnt say that it was wrong. You acted in self defense to the bombardment of your cities that is all.
The same thing Israel is doing now.

 

[Zede]

I didnt say that it was wrong. You acted in self defense to the bombardment of your cities that is all.
The same thing Israel is doing now.

the mere fact you actually think thats the case well...

For many years I thought that way, thats the way the press made us all think.

Ive got 100s of graphic novels & 1000s of comics, and came across this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_(Sacco_comic) whilst browing for X-Men & Hellblazer. Read it ( Palestine) & get back to me.

 

[Dahakon]

Israeli troops have crossed the border and invaded now: BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Israeli troops 'move into Gaza'. This has obviously been a long time in the planning by Israel.

 

[old.Tohtori]

*looks at popcorn*

*throws popcorn away*

*gets up from lawnchair*

This show's gotten boring.

 

[Shagrat]

Israeli troops have crossed the border and invaded now: BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Israeli troops 'move into Gaza'. This has obviously been a long time in the planning by Israel.

ah crap. there goes the neighbourhood.

Israel and Hamas need to stay late after school and do some detention. copy this down 10000 times.

"tit for tat is childish and never gets you anywhere"

You would think that people would learn a lesson from 6000 years of history and not just keep repeating the same mistakes ad nauseum until someone gets really pissed off and the ICBM's start getting bunged around

 

[Dahakon]

You would think that people would learn a lesson from 6000 years of history and not just keep repeating the same mistakes ad nauseum until someone gets really pissed off and the ICBM's start getting bunged around

reminds me of my favourite quote, "those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it, those who remember the past are doomed to say 'I told you so'"

 

[Marc]

thats funny that a citizen of one of the worlds biggest empires in the past and basically the fathers of Imperialism is on a high horse here.
The germans bombed you in 1940, then you killed around 600,000 citizens among which were 80,000 children during constant air raids on Germany and nearly annihilated a culture center towards the end of the war which had no impact whatsoever on the war effort (hi Dresden february 1945)
srsly gtfo

Bombing in 1945 was not as accurate an art form as it is today and the destruction of infrastructure vital to the enemy is a legitimate target in war, even if it involves the deaths of civilians and in any case a good number of these civilians will have been working towards the war effort as were the civilians killed in Coventry, Hull, Liverpool and other main industrial/port areas of the UK that were bombed by the axis.

Poor comparison really

 

[old.Tohtori]

Let he who hasn't noth thrown a bomb at thine neighbour cast the first MOAB!

Noone can get on a highhorse here, every nation f*cked up, every nation has a past and what the british are now calling "shocking", is what they did before.

This world doesn't run on a "civilization" clock where every nation advances in turnbase galore.

Accept the fact that there's different timezones(not those) on this globe, stop trying to change others and we'd get along much nicer.

 

[aika]

The moral battleground | The Spectator

/thread

funny how we dont see protests in the west, or western political figures speak against the genocide that is/was going in various African countries where literally hunders of thousands were killed . (Rwanda, Darfour,etc)

double standarts are double

 

[Chronictank]

The moral battleground | The Spectator

/thread

funny how we dont see protests in the west, or western political figures speak against the genocide that is/was going in various African countries where literally hunders of thousands were killed . (Rwanda, Darfour,etc)

double standarts are double

If you want to justify an argument like that its not really a good idea to use a completely biased article, especially from a trash "news" magazine

Firstly its misleading, how many have actually been killed by said 6000 rockets (asuming this bit is true and not just propoganda). These are home made rockets which rarely hit on target, a bit of a difference between military grade ones aimed at people on purpose

Secondly, Israel is state run terrorism the other was home made insurgents bent on killing people. If you open your eyes almost all western countries have condemned these people, hardly the "one sided" opinion you like to pretend there is.
In addition you can negotiate with a country as there is someone to talk to, Hamas used to be distributed and contained many factions it was actually near impossible to get an agreement due to the iscolated cell structure of the organisation.

As for africa etc..
Theres a difference between a country who are ravaged by infighting and another who is actively invading another and carpet bombing civilians to get a handful of terrorists.
But hey,
i guess you learned a thing or two from the Nazis's, remember how that ended?


Apparently i am racist for not supporting Israel... lol

 

[aika]

carpet bombing a city of 1.4 million for 9 days and only 500 dead. ok whatever.
also it doesnt matter how many people are killed by the rockets, if you live in the UK you might wanna ask your grandparents how it is to experience air raid alarms 10-12 times per day, every day.

How much money from the EU has gone into gaza for all those years and what have they done with it?

I never said you were a racist, but I'm kind of sick of all the anti-Israel bias in the western media for all those years. You dont see any activities like that in the Western Bank where Hamas has no power, and the HDI there is actually higher than in Egypt.

Its really not relevant in this case what was in 1948 or 1967, in this particular case Hamas was warned multiple times by Israel and yet they kept firing, so they have absolutely no right to complain now, I feel pity for the civilians in Gaza though that are held hostage by Hamas.
But I guess supporting terrorist organisations is FOTM now in Europe, wanna see how your opinion changes when you face radical islamic terrorism personally (I really dont wish you that).

I had very leftist opinions when I was younger, then 2 of my friends from school died in a suicide bus bombing, later on I volunteered into IDF paratrooper recon cause I swore to myself to fight terror so we can prevent this in future.

 

[dub]

carpet bombing a city of 1.4 million for 9 days and only 500 dead. ok whatever.
also it doesnt matter how many people are killed by the rockets, if you live in the UK you might wanna ask your grandparents how it is to experience air raid alarms 10-12 times per day, every day.

How much money from the EU has gone into gaza for all those years and what have they done with it?

I never said you were a racist, but I'm kind of sick of all the anti-Israel bias in the western media for all those years. You dont see any activities like that in the Western Bank where Hamas has no power, and the HDI there is actually higher than in Egypt.

Its really not relevant in this case what was in 1948 or 1967, in this particular case Hamas was warned multiple times by Israel and yet they kept firing, so they have absolutely no right to complain now, I feel pity for the civilians in Gaza though that are held hostage by Hamas.
But I guess supporting terrorist organisations is FOTM now in Europe, wanna see how your opinion changes when you face radical islamic terrorism personally (I really dont wish you that).

I had very leftist opinions when I was younger, then 2 of my friends from school died in a suicide bus bombing, later on I volunteered into IDF paratrooper recon cause I swore to myself to fight terror so we can prevent this in future.

can hardly blame you for having your wiews changed in a radical direction by your experiences , neither can you blame the palestinians for the same.

what you can do is to realize that neither hamas nor israel is going to change policy due to pressure or threats of violence.

so either keep killing eachother or figure out other possible sollutions , an eye for an eye will make the world go blind.

just for the record , israel seem to have upped the ante since my last reply in this thread and is now so for away from an eye for an eye that they are clearly using disproportionate response.

 

[Chronictank]

carpet bombing a city of 1.4 million for 9 days and only 500 dead. ok whatever.
also it doesnt matter how many people are killed by the rockets, if you live in the UK you might wanna ask your grandparents how it is to experience air raid alarms 10-12 times per day, every day.

Yet you happily bomb others with larger deathtolls as well as actually invading the country whenever you feel like it (usually around election time)

If you want to cry hypocracy look at home first

How much money from the EU has gone into gaza for all those years and what have they done with it?

I wonder why that is? could it be that all aid is blocked to the country? or maybe if a western power was to support gaza they would be branded supporting terrorism? perhaps its because they dont want to ruffle the feathers of a certain superpower?

I never said you were a racist

Was in refence to the opinion of people who replied to the article rather than you in particular
e.g.

Precisely because they do not see themselves in this light, it is imperative that those in the West who are critical of Israel be told to their face that they are racists and anti-Semites.

one among many on the website you posted
as well as certain Israeli's i have met irl who went as far as to brand an Israeli girl i was dating a traitor

, but I'm kind of sick of all the anti-Israel bias in the western media for all those years. You dont see any activities like that in the Western Bank where Hamas has no power, and the HDI there is actually higher than in Egypt.

Israel made themselves the villain when they ignored calls for a ceasefire (dont bring up the previous one which wasn't honoured)
Egypt haven't taken any of their land nor do they regularly send sorties into their territory so i am not entirely sure why you keep bringing them up

Its really not relevant in this case what was in 1948 or 1967, in this particular case Hamas was warned multiple times by Israel and yet they kept firing, so they have absolutely no right to complain now, I feel pity for the civilians in Gaza though that are held hostage by Hamas.

Israel didnt honour the ceasefire any more than Hamas did so that is not a drum you want to be banging

But I guess supporting terrorist organisations is FOTM now in Europe, wanna see how your opinion changes when you face radical islamic terrorism personally (I really dont wish you that).

What a load of crap, have you actually ever read a european paper? (newspaper not magazine like the sun)
Stop spouting propoganda and actually give something to discuss

I had very leftist opinions when I was younger, then 2 of my friends from school died in a suicide bus bombing, .

And still you are blind to what the other side is going through? while appreciate you have propoganda thrown at you since you are born surely you can see the problem with your thinking?
replace suicide bomb with rocket attack/air raid/tank shell and you have the palestinian story

later on I volunteered into IDF paratrooper recon cause I swore to myself to fight terror so we can prevent this in future

Yet you are part of the problem, people like yourself are why this conflict will never end.
Every person you kill's friends and family will in turn hate Israel for it and join organisations like Hamas, the cycle repeats

 

[aika]

yes I agree that this is a vicious cycle that will never end, however what Hamas was doing is just heating up the public opinions in Israel, so the government had to act whatever was/is the cost.
I am perfectly aware of what the other side is going through, as I served in the West Bank most of the 3 years of my army service, yet their cynical use of media to blow everything out of proportions and to cry to the world in every second is not helping me pity them tbh.
For me Hamas are just hypocritical liars that use religion and population to promote their goals, eventhough they dont even have any clear political goals.

 

[aika]

can hardly blame you for having your wiews changed in a radical direction by your experiences , neither can you blame the palestinians for the same.

what you can do is to realize that neither hamas nor israel is going to change policy due to pressure or threats of violence.

so either keep killing eachother or figure out other possible sollutions , an eye for an eye will make the world go blind.

just for the record , israel seem to have upped the ante since my last reply in this thread and is now so for away from an eye for an eye that they are clearly using disproportionate response.

What is a proportionate response then? Firing unguided missiles back on Gaza?

 

[dub]

What is a proportionate response then? Firing unguided missiles back on Gaza?

negotiate.

violence from either of the sides are not gonna change their opponents agenda only enforce it.

 

[aika]

negotiate.

violence from either of the sides are not gonna change their opponents agenda only enforce it.

There's no one to negotiate with in Gaza, if Hamas is removed and Fatah rule is restored in Gaza then we can negotiate with them.