lack of crowd control on WAR, good or bad?

Discussion in 'Warhammer' started by Ormorof, Aug 28, 2008.

CC good or bad?

  1. NO CC DOWN WITH THE MEZ!

    97 vote(s)
    53.6%
  2. YES! GIVE US THE CHANCE TO BASH ENEMIES THAT STAND STILL NONE OF THIS RUNNING AROUND NONSENSE!

    55 vote(s)
    30.4%
  3. frankly my dear... i dont give a damn!

    29 vote(s)
    16.0%
  1. Cadelin

    Cadelin Part of the furniture

    Its a rather poorly worded question.

    There is plenty of CC in WAR (generally single target or PBAOE)
    There NO long duration CC (AE or single target)

    The lack of long duration AE CC in WAR will mean it becomes much harder to fight a zerg. The strength of the force will be more correlated to the number of people you have rather than the organisation and skill. This may not be a bad thing but if it means a zerg of 80 will almost always lose to a zerg of 100 then population imbalance may become a huge issue for the game enjoyment. In DaoC there was always population imbalance but because of the 3 realms and AE CC the game wasn't just ruled by zergs.

    The CC in DaoC is well balanced these days. People tend to use CC as a scape goat for why DaoC wasn't fun because:
    1) They last played in 2003 when it was rather imbalanced.

    2) They blame CC on forcing them to have to have certain classes in a group. While this is partly true the problem was class imblance rather than CC. In WAR there are essential abilities but they are given to multiple characters and the classes are in general much better designed.

    3) They weren't very good at RvR. Typical examples are: "Its no fun to stand around doing nothing waiting to die" but to be honest if you were in a group and you got CCed for the entire fight you would have almost certainly still lost because the other players were better. Its not fun to lose heavily but the removal of AE CC won't stop this from happening, people will just move onto blaming zerging/class imbalance etc.
     
  2. Xandax

    Xandax Loyal Freddie

    1) false. Have played a heck of a lot longer then that, and still think CC was too overpowered in DAoC. Does not mean I did not find the game fun, but the combat was pretty one sided and void of any strategical element. It was CC first or loose most of the time. Played classic servers and still found CC to be overpowered.

    2) Not only did you have to have specific classes, you also had to be specced a specific way and had to spell craft a specific way and had to spec RA a specific way. CC was thee defining factor for how people turned into cookie cutter set ups.

    Then it might be that classes weren't balanced "perfectly", but it is impossible to balance "perfectly" and adding CC on top of that certainly did not make Mythics job easier. I still do not think DAoC is balanced by any means - again does not mean I didn't find the game fun.

    3) Perhaps. But taking a person out of the combat for 30+ seconds does not mean "hax0r skillz0rs" when all you have to do is spec for it and spot the enemy first.

    I've seen more then my share of so called "elite" 8 man groups being wiped because their CC spells didn't stick, and I've seen them wipe others when it did.

    The premise that "if you don't like CC you suck" is just the arguments of somebody who can't play without his I-Win abilities.
     
  3. Manisch Depressiv

    Manisch Depressiv Part of the furniture

    Don't use the word overpowered please, it means something can't be overcome, CC in DAoC today can:

    High det/stoicism tanks with charge/group purge/fury, Purge 1-3, resists 36-50%, AoM, EM, mezz/stun-blockers, (MoC) demezzers and a silly amount of counter interrupts (yes, a nuke or a melee swing is an interrupt too).

    Don't know how much longer you played than Cadelin, but he seems to be more of an expert on this issue.

    Also, the real difference between DAoC & Warhammer will be not the CC duration or the amount of CC one has, but the slow-down vs. true interrupt mechanics. Slow down favors the zerg (not saying zerg is bad), true interrupt helps to control zerg. You can still support one or the other approach without refering to artificial and void arguments about how CC is bad because it got you killed in DAoC. At group level even 9s stun and debuff-nuking wasn't an issue.
     
  4. Faya

    Faya Fledgling Freddie

    If they implement hard CC in the game at start, i think many people would loose the fun factor that WAR has for them right away.
    If they introduce hard CC in a casual way, say mid 30s+ RvR instead and then very slowly, might be a better approach.
    I dont agree to the post with "if both groups have it and one looses the other had more skill". There is more about that kind of skill to use hard CC, so we better dont generalize.

    Still, it was said by the DEVs , no hard CC in WAR....but who wil remember that when the time comes they bring it in :)

    In the end this post did nothing for the discusison, but at least i will bring in my opinion: No hard CC=Win

    Faya
     
  5. Mas

    Mas One of Freddy's beloved

    And the fact tha mezz interupted so it was mezz spam in towers/keeps, especially when the best mezzer in the game had a root spell for almost as long as mezz ;/ And when the +duration came mezz went silly, was mezzed once on a yellow aoe mezz for 53 secs on my rm, fair do my resists were crap but 53 secs lol... No cc needed in WAR...please move on....
     
  6. Mehuge

    Mehuge One of Freddy's beloved

    There isn't a lack of CC at all. There is lots of CC.

    Its just not 45 sec (before mitigation and reduction abilities) long range/insta AE Mezz. Disclaimer: Its a long time since I played DAoC so 45 sec may not be 100% accurate.

    I still think there is a bit too much CC in WAR.

    By that I mean, with a couple of people on a squishy who hasnt got the support or attention of a healer or two, they are CCd (snared, knocked down, disabled) until they are dead, they have little or no chance to get back into range, even if they use their AoE root, because they are snared, they aint going anywhere. Also there are the nasty abilities like GSS (and the WE/WH openers and I think Marauder has a version of it) that damage you if you move/try and escape, these are deadly - unless you have the attention of a healer. OFC this means being in a group with good (ie awake, speced for) healing will be desirable. If you dont have that though, then being CCd equates to being dead.
     
  7. Cadelin

    Cadelin Part of the furniture

    Losing CC initially should not cause your group to lose a fight. Having more abilities (in terms of CC) can only add to the amount of strategies available during a fight. The power of CC will however will always be a matter of opinion.

    There will always be cookie cutter specs in every MMO. There will be bits of equipment and abilities that give you an advantage. This is nothing to do with CC. I have played plenty of games (going back to pen and paper) with no CC and yet amazingly it has always been the case that giving my dwarf warrior a big magic axe and plate armour was better than a feather duster and a pink tutu! You are talking complete rubbish to suggest cookie cutter specs were the result of CC.

    The point I was making was that it wasn't just the CCer who was more skillful. If a group has a good CCer they will probably have good dps and heals too. I am not saying disliking CC makes you a bad player. I am simply saying a bad player will perceive that CC is the reason they have lost because it is the first thing that happens to them. If CC wasn't in the game they would have still lost and blamed other overpowered abilities.

    CC was not an I-win ability, it didn't kill anyone and classes like the healer/bard were certainly not very popular classes. CC was only power when used with other abilities.

    A good player will always find a way of beating a bad player. If you take away one option they will find others and if you keep taking the options away until skill plays no part in the game the better players will simply stop playing.
     
  8. Xandax

    Xandax Loyal Freddie

    I don't see having the ability to make your opponent incapacitated as adding any strategical aspect, let alone any tactical aspect.
    If anything I felt it diminished them.
    It was CC, assist train or pb-aoe box. There was no variation, there were no tactics.
    The time tactics started to play any part was in fact when the CC didn't stick, which just goes to prove the point.

    The simple fact that you needed to spec a specific way, needed to take specific RAs, spell craft a specific way and needed to run specific set ups alone meant the all tactical aspects was way neglected.

    The fact that we in WAR can't rely on CC to keep people incapacitated, means now tactics will have to play a part. Coordination, movement to utilize CD and utilization of terrain will be key factors now.
    Not just who sees who first and gets the first long duration AE CC spell off. And whether or not the opponent had received enough RAs to spec for the purge you couldn't live without. That isn't tactics. That's just "CC to win".
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Brack

    Brack One of Freddy's beloved

    don't like how it was put but the lack of ranged aoe cc will suck. With the way ppl zerged in beta a fg could do with aoe mezz just to get away from them, aoe stun and such would be OP but something that broke on the first hit would be nice
     
  10. Cadelin

    Cadelin Part of the furniture

    You are trolling now. An assist-train isn't a tactic but coordination between players is?! Positioning in DaoC was a huge aspect of RvR.

    The problems you are talking about in DaoC will still be there in WAR.

    There is lots of CC in WAR. Although not always implemented in the same way as DaoC there are still ways of incapacitating players while you kill them.
    The classes in WAR have been better designed than DaoC but if you want to be good at RvR you will have to go for specific classes with specific equipment and spec them in specific ways.
    The difference in power between a hardcore player and a casual player in RvR has been reduced but it is still there. A casual group will still die against a better group and after a while this will be just as boring as DaoC.
     
  11. Xandax

    Xandax Loyal Freddie

    Consider it trolling all you want - just cause your arguments doesn't hold up to scrutiny, doesn't mean others are trolling for pointing it out.
    Assist train is easy when enemies are incapacitated. So a CC -> assist train; No, not tactical.
    Coordinating trains when enemies aren't incapacitated, much more so.

    And yes - there is a lot of CC in WAR, I haven't claimed otherwise, and CC will still play a significant part in combat.
    But it isn't the 30+ second AE type which can lock you out from an entire fight, where it then means that CC is win.
    The time to kill is larger as well which will be another factor.
    So yes - assist trains will still be needed, but now more so needed to utilize terrain and the CD instead of just taking everybody out of the fight with long duration CC, and then picking them off one at the time.

    As for cookie cutter specs, then I think we'll see that to a lesser degree, but it will not be forced as it was in DAoC by the existence of the "one true weapon".

    And where on earth does the argument "casual" group wouldn't die to a better group come from? Sounds like straw man arguing to me, but *shrug* once the arguments fail, other methods must apparently be utilized. In fact I count on it - not that I expect to run in "hardcore groups" any more at all.
    But I also think we'll see small organized forces take out larger disorganized forces - but now it will not be because of the long duration AE CC.
     
  12. Mellon

    Mellon Fledgling Freddie

    First I must admit that most of my beta time was on tanking classes, so that might confuse me a bit. But playing my pretty squishy BW from lvl 31-33 did not give me the feeling that I died in two hits. Of the top of my head I'll try to remember the amount of damage i did with my fully dps-specced chosen (might not be quite as bad as a melee char, but I really can't remember the numbers from my WL)

    The nastiest attack I had (that was not a morale) was Relentless from speccing 9 points in the Dread-tree (= 2H-dps) It deals up to five hits over 3 seconds channeled. If I had debuffed a squishy with some armour reduction and a taunt (+30% damage) It ticked for just above 200 around lvl 32 with roughly one crit for 300 every casting. So lets say 1.2k damage, over 3 seconds. And usually when it came to using morale abilities I could squeeze in a M2 Raze that ticked for 300-350 per sec for 3 sec channeled (with debuffs, taunt etc) to everyone in front of me. So with those two I could do about 2.5k damage in "two" hits over 6 seconds, if I had debuffed my target and timed my attacks with my Taunt. Add to that some few hundred damage from my autoattack, and I believe a melee dps can do a bit more than than, but its still a bit from the 4.5k hitpoints that my pretty squishy dps-geared mage had at that level.

    So two-hit kills are IMHO pretty rare. Luckily :)

    Do you have some differing experiences, then I\d love to be enlightened.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Tallen

    Tallen Fledgling Freddie

    Your not supposed to run away, your supposed to stand and fight...here kitty kitty kitty ;)
     
  14. Negura`

    Negura` Fledgling Freddie

    Not having strong CC just takes away a level of depth from the game. With proper CC there is another role in the game in addition to healers, dps, support - the crowd controller.

    Weak CC and this role will cease to exist, so the game is somewhat dumbed down. How much it will affect the fun in this game remains to be seen. Simplifying a game will definitely make it more appealing to the masses but will also make it mediocre.


    From the videos I've seen a BW does die from a DPS melee class in something like 6 seconds. Since it's supposed to have people run in groups I guess it's ok, as there are means to defend your squishies. On the opposite side, an unchecked BW would kill a DPS just as fast.
     
  15. Ribbit

    Ribbit Fledgling Freddie

    "Positioning in DaoC was a huge aspect of RvR."

    Here let me fix that for you:

    *Radar* in DaoC was a huge aspect of RvR.

    That sort of 'tactic' isn't going to get anybody very far in a game with CD.

    DAoC's 'self-anointed elite' are in for a very rude awakening in WAR, if their abject failure to perform in other games with CD is anything to go by. ;)

    Seen it so often, "We are xxxxx 8v8 Guild from DAoC and we are going to so own you nooobs' gets shouted from the rooftops at the highest possible volume with the greatest possible advertising profile at game start, then when reality collides with theory, they end up slinking off with frequent repetitions of the ancient mantra 'This game are teh SUXXOR!'.

    Have popcorn, will watch with interest and a high expectation of amusement . . . . :lol:
     
  16. partyanimal

    partyanimal Fledgling Freddie

    positioning as...
    group spreading on inc to avoid getting mezzed altogether...
    group taking high ground and having space to kite if needed...
    casters pre kiting a bit and staying out of reach from tanks...
    tanks not over-extending and dying helpless...

    nf and the 3000 clip range disable radar...(altho rainbow guild and a few more ppl got banned for using radar)
     
  17. adoNix

    adoNix Can't get enough of FH

    tbh if you were mezzed for 30+ secs when in a grp your demezzers sucked ;O
    I'm in favour for cc, but not too much.. a little more cc than WoW has and little less than daoc :D
     
  18. Raven

    Raven Brrrrr!

    The only problem with the CC in daoc was that it was concentrated on a handful of classes. Sorcs were just lol mode to try and kill solo, mez run off nuke, root, run off nuke add to that chain stunning chicken pets etc etc. shiteaters who thought they could play often picked the sorc to solo with simply for the fact that they were near un-killable if they got the range jump. With WoW the CC is stupid for different reasons, with unbreakable fears (if trinket was down) monglock from rogues etc but that is not really a real pvp game imo, its pve with badly thought out instanced rubbish for pvp tacked onto it if blizzard wanted to make the pvp decent they would spoil the pve to much really. It was utterly pointless to even leave the border keep without a decent bard in DAOC which made for a lot of just standing around doing nothing.

    In DAOC fg rvr there was nothing wrong with AOE mez if you equipped your toon properly or had the right classes in your group. However this does not attract the casual players and is not what they are aiming for in WAR, in that respect they have got it spot on.

    Its a different game from both DAOC and Wow so lets just give it time, have 6 months at high end group pvp (if thats your thing) then decide if you like the CC :)
     
  19. Gahn

    Gahn Resident Freddy

    That said it should trigger an immunity at one point cause being chain rooted is just lol tbh.
     
  20. Septima

    Septima Fledgling Freddie

    Not having, longer CC, means a less tactical game, diminishing your options. So War atm is lesser rich than DAOC. IMHO
     
  21. Stazbumpa

    Stazbumpa Fledgling Freddie

    CC should be minimal. I currently have no issues with CC in WAR, whereas in WoW all PvP pretty much depended on it.

    Say no to CC gayness.
     
  22. Gahn

    Gahn Resident Freddy

    Eheh wait to face the 1st 2xSorc group :p
     
  23. Chronictank

    Chronictank FH is my second home

    if they put immunity timers on roots etc.. it would be the best cc out there atm imo
     
  24. Roo Stercogburn

    Roo Stercogburn Resident Freddy

    There's a fairly reasonable cooldown already on a Magus's root and its the only escape spell I've got on a class that at low levels is utterly dreadful for PvP.

    Overall, I approve of CC not being the deciding factor in most fights.
     
  25. Ashash Saleem

    Ashash Saleem Fledgling Freddie

    Lack? erm, the constant spamming of roots and stuns without a cool down timer or an imunity timer is one of the main things annooying me abour rvr atm, there is no place in an mmo for that kind of crowd control, any stun/mez should be broken on hit, having someone stand there with 2 or 3 chars spamming stuns at you so you cant move for a stupid ampount of time should not be allwoed in this type of game.

    There should be 3 types of crowd control 1. knockdown/back 2. root that slows you down but does not stop you and 3. Stun that breaks when you are hit. These should all have a 1 minute imunity timer so you cant be constantly frozen to the spot.
     
  26. sxx

    sxx Fledgling Freddie

    1. Yea
    2. Yeah, call it snare...
    3. Stun that breaks? thats a root!
     
  27. Raven

    Raven Brrrrr!

    Not really because if you are rooted you can still cast, if you are stunned you can't do anything. a stun that breaks when you are hit is a mez :)
     
  28. Svartmetall

    Svartmetall Great Unclean One

    WAR's RvR is way more fun for not spending most of it standing still. Just say no to the CC.
     
  29. Soazak

    Soazak Part of the furniture

    :iagree:



    The only problem is the majority of the population do not play the game tactically, as Manisch said people hate to lose, there is plenty you could do in daoc to counter mez, and after some balancing winning mez does not = winning fight. Most people can't be bothered with this and look for the first thing to blame when they lose, and that the ONLY reason they lost is because they didnt get the first mez.

    I think long duration CC is better for good group v group, but I also think the game works fine how it is.
     
  30. Manisch Depressiv

    Manisch Depressiv Part of the furniture

    I've heard the Evita will be getting speed of sound, bolt range mezz, snaring dots and plate armor on his Arch Mage in the next patch.

    Time to summon the zerg!
     

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