Kim Jong Il dead

Wazzerphuk

Wazzerphuk

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Good cherry picking. It also tells you that despite the indoctrination you speak so much of they STILL want to leave. They find out stuff about the lies after - once they've already left.

People want out whether they like Dear Leader or not. They're not simply staying for their love for him. I don't know why you think the North Korean population are so stupid they don't understand what they deal with every day on a personal and social level. Your belief in controlling powers to have influence over people over everything else appears to be clouding your logic. A dictatorship, no matter how ingrained or powerful doesn't simply brainwash people in the manner you're suggesting. You're talking the stuff of fictional dystopias.
 
Uncle Sick

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old.Tohtori said:
Can't say i knew the man personally, seemed to have a long life and worked hard. Points for doing something with life, some negative points on what he did.
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You still trying to raise your post count with bullshit apparently. Same thing could be said about Stalin as well.
"Hey, didn't know Joe personally but he had a cool mustache and and dressed kind of like a fancy Bolshevik. Some negative points what he did, though ho-hum"
I honestly don't know how you come up with these inane statements. Do you just click 'reply' and hammer away? Do you ever go back to a post and think "Did I really say that? I'm a fucking moron"?
Or do you lose track or care after 12 million?

And, hey - how many North Koreans try to flee every day? I'd love a number. Do some research how many East Germans tried to make it over the fence and how many actually made it.
Now replace the fence and the Berlin Wall with the DMZ and all the other fun, crazy communist shit the North Korean authorities have at their disposal. [Citation needed]

Which direction are they fleeing towards anyways?? North, towards the Chinese border where they're probably turned away or turned in by the Chinese or south, towards the DMZ, which is the most
heavily fortified stretch of land on the entire planet? Swim somewhere? [Citation needed]

And the guy only got the guided tour? Seriously? Like the only tour available? Do link interesting articles about the average life span of the non-official-tour-guided foreigner, who traipses around NK unsupervised. [Citation needed]

North Korea has also been cut off from the rest of the world for the last 60+ years. It's inhabitants are being heavily indoctrinated from the first to the last stages of their lives. Of course, there is the odd
dissident, the N-Korean Tototori who disagrees with the regime just because, but the majority of North Koreans are in line with whichever Kim is Illin'. How is that so hard to believe?
24 million NK's, 1,1 million strong military - that's another good reason to love the leader.

Hitler had intensely devout followers, bordering on the religious (yes, imagine that) - he only had 12 years to get the masses to go nuts. You've seen the footage, right? You think that was staged!?
Had he not started WW2, remained peaceful and spawned some little Hitlers, Germany would still be under his thrall. Maybe Fred Hitler would be the beloved Fuehrer now. The Kim Il's had six decades.
Do the fucking math.

And yes, of course there were Germans who were indifferent to the Nazis, there were Germans very much against the Nazis. But the majority was pro-Nazi. And that's what matters.
 
Aoami

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enhanced-buzz-22147-1324322552-54.jpg
 
Deebs

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Scouse said:
Y'see Mabs?

Very. Next. Post. And, predictably, the same in the thread with Gohan.

I'm wondering if Deebs'll consider changing the name of the forum to TalkToTohtoriHouse :(
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Never gonna happen.
 
old.Tohtori

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Uncle Sick said:
You still trying to raise your post count with bullshit apparently. Same thing could be said about Stalin as well.
"Hey, didn't know Joe personally but he had a cool mustache and and dressed kind of like a fancy Bolshevik. Some negative points what he did, though ho-hum"
I honestly don't know how you come up with these inane statements. Do you just click 'reply' and hammer away? Do you ever go back to a post and think "Did I really say that? I'm a fucking moron"?
Or do you lose track or care after 12 million?

And, hey - how many North Koreans try to flee every day*snip*t the Nazis. But the majority was pro-Nazi. And that's what matters.
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Did you actually just, in your usual "off the hinge" argument, blame me for scouses posts? o_O

It's not inane, or bullsh*t, or whatever the hell you like to call it. He lived long, worked hard, did something with life. Can you disagree? If not, shut the f*ck up. You don't need my hate to feel that yours is validated.

Or is it completely wrong to say something non-flaming about bad people? does it somehow turn your world upside down if you have to admit that "Hmm, yes, Hitler did some things well too".
 
Wij

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I assumed it was a mild joke Toht but whatever :)
 
Scouse

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Wazzerphuk said:
Good cherry picking. It also tells you that despite the indoctrination you speak so much of they STILL want to leave. They find out stuff about the lies after - once they've already left.

People want out whether they like Dear Leader or not. They're not simply staying for their love for him. I don't know why you think the North Korean population are so stupid they don't understand what they deal with every day on a personal and social level. Your belief in controlling powers to have influence over people over everything else appears to be clouding your logic. A dictatorship, no matter how ingrained or powerful doesn't simply brainwash people in the manner you're suggesting. You're talking the stuff of fictional dystopias.
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I don't think it was cherry picking - the article itself said that the exodus left when the famine started - after the natural disasters in the 1990's. I think your choice of an article about deserters is cherry picking - the opinions in an article about people who badly wanted out and left at great personal risk are, of course, going to reflect the opinions of people who want out.

I'm also freely admitting (repeatedly) that they're a repressed people, that many want out, that their conditions are horrible. I'm happy to agree with you (and others) there (yet again). :eek:

The point I'm drawing about religious indoctrination isn't the stuff of "fictional dystopias" - it's the story of the religious people of Britain that we see every day.

You've seen the arguments with religious people on this very forum. It's amazingly frustrating and incredibly blinkered and generally has nothing to do with reason. The story of Europe is the story of religious persecution, of burning heretics, of holy war, of the inquisition, the repression of reason to support religious dogma - all over a made-up story about a fictional deity.

It's fekking "Christmas" - the co-opted holiday period where we get religion rammed down our throat - but watch out! Life Of Brian is probably on the telly! You know, the film that was banned by councils across Britain for being blasphemous only 30 years ago - and this is in the first post-religious, most "enlightened" country on the planet.

And what's most shocking is that it's families that have indoctrinated their own children (my own sisters kids, despite not being church goers in any way, had a pop at me the other day for saying Jesus never existed - because they learned about him in school ffs). It's the population of Europe that, after initial resistance, did this to themselves. They wholeheartedly bought in to bullshit - like the religious fundamentalists that make up nearly half of the US population that believe the end of the world is coming - and that's from a 2000-year old story, with nothing tangible to believe in and stacks of evidence to the contrary.

It's not "fictional" - it's factual.

The people of NK are, on a daily basis, bombarded with stories about what their gods are doing today. They've got them on the telly playing miraculous games of golf, exhausting themselves to death in pursuit of a better life for their people - and they've got a very strong enemy figure to unite against. And this is after a childhood education that tells them what to think and how to think it. "Stalinist" is correct - and many people in Russia genuinely wept when they lost their leader.

Humans are stupid animals wired up to believe shit. Any old shit.


So, did you listen to the radio interview Waz, or am I the only one making the effort here?
 
old.Tohtori

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Wij said:
I assumed it was a mild joke Toht but whatever :)
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Well it was meant to take the piss out of devils advocate stuff, but it's still fact :p

(if you emant the original that is). But anyhoo, lot of noise over nothing.

Also most i post to Scouse is just to piss him off, jsut because you need to do that to religious preachy f*ckwits.
 
Scouse

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I didn't want to bring up the Nazi's for fear of being called godwin or something... ;)

Uncle Sick said:
North Korea has also been cut off from the rest of the world for the last 60+ years. It's inhabitants are being heavily indoctrinated from the first to the last stages of their lives. Of course, there is the odd dissident, the N-Korean Tototori who disagrees with the regime just because, but the majority of North Koreans are in line with whichever Kim is Illin'. How is that so hard to believe?

Hitler had intensely devout followers, bordering on the religious...he only had 12 years to get the masses to go nuts. You've seen the footage, right? You think that was staged!?...The Kim Il's had six decades...Do the fucking math.

And yes, of course there were Germans who were indifferent to the Nazis, there were Germans very much against the Nazis. But the majority was pro-Nazi. And that's what matters.
Click to expand...

This.
 
opticle

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I got a bit sleepy reading toward the end, but just wanted to say that I have no doubt that as Scouse says many of them are totally indoctrinated and that you could quite easily make the comparison with the kinds of religious indoctrination I've seen. You see it in Utah, e.g. creation teaching in schools, then why not in NK? I see no reason why it couldn't be likened to a religion or a cult. Its not really worth getting so hung up on that description.

Its scary what is possible with human beings, especially if you control the flow of information. Hell, even if you don't control the flow of information, horrible things have been done. Listen to Blue Oyster Cult (Don't Fear the Reaper). Its fucking chilling. Read about any of the cults of the past, our current times (?aum shinrikyo in Japan) and some of the religious groups all over the world today. Its so disturbing what people are capable of doing and believing. Doesn't mean I'm bashing religion/cults/etc. But it appears anything is possible. (on a side note, I can draw similarities with all these groups and stupid Americans, so why not the protestant or catholic churches and some of the horrible shit they have done? shrug. still not bashing, just saying)

If anything, the indoctrination is likely to be worse with the younger generations, unless the internet and other media have saved them, despite all the censure and dangers involved in avoiding that.

We can't know for sure, but it does likely exist there, looking at the way things are there and other places in the world, I've little doubt it does.

I'm sure there are plenty who aren't indoctrinated too - the escape stories testify to that.

Its all a balance and I'm sure theres truth to both sides, there always is.

World = scary place :( there's nice people too though, regardless of what they believe.
 
Scouse

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Wazzerphuk said:
The only effort you're making at the moment appears to be steering a thread on North Korea to be an anti-religion thread. :(
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I sincerely apologise if it seems that way - but it's absolutely not my intention.

I'm trying to understand their mentality in a vaccum of information. I think they've been succesfully indoctrinated - and the best example I have, that everyone here will have direct experience of (giving my argument weight), is religious indoctrination.

I'm talking about North Korea, not god. I'm talking about how belief is an incredibly dangerous thing for humans. Yes, there are unavoidable parallels with other threads - but I can't help that.


So Waz. Please - listen to that radio thang :)
 
Gwadien

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Aada said:
Creepy footage of the NK Capital.


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6Hqx3Xuv7s&feature=related
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Please note before you read this, this is NOT my opinion, it's just a couple of thoughts...

These people are being treated like this... - like they've stopped time.. only with a few advances, does it make you ever think maybe as a western society we're also being held back to some extent?

Are they happy? Truely... happy? Are we happy? or are we just content with what we have and the society we live in?

Fucked.
 
Scouse

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Looks like a standard soviet-era building plan to me. That woman was taking her job very seriously considering the lack of traffic at 6am :)
 
old.Tohtori

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Uncle Sick said:
Are you just bona fide trolling now? Or were you actually serious? Let me know.
Click to expand...

No, those are facts. Just because you don't like someone, doesn't negate everything.

Nicely cherrypicked though, nothing new there.
 
rynnor

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Aada

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Its just the fact there is hardly anyone on the streets, it just seems deserted.
 
old.Tohtori

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Helsinki looks pretty much the same during mid-summer festival when everyone pisses off to cabins etc.
 
Z^^

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Looks like Mariehamn all winter period.
 
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