Kim Jong Il dead

[Scouse]

Meh, idiots..

I wouldn't say that. I'd say "indoctrinated humans".


But, of course, if they were peado-pope lovin' catholics...

 

[rynnor]

I wouldn't say that. I'd say "indoctrinated humans".

But, of course, if they were peado-pope lovin' catholics...

Is the reaction to the death of kim jung il any more fake than the reaction to diana's death?

 

[old.Tohtori]

Quite, there's a lot of "indoctrination" in the UK too, which can often be seen in the attitudes of people.

You say indoctrinated, i say cultural difference.

 

[rynnor]

Quite, there's a lot of "indoctrination" in the UK too, which can often be seen in the attitudes of people.

You say indoctrinated, i say cultural difference.

Yeah i just find it ironic when we have our own 'royal family' of inherited status and privilege - ofc the beeb is full of sycophants with their hands out so dont expect to see the comparison made...

 

[Ch3tan]

Meh, idiots.. his son won't be any different, if anything he'll be worse.

They aren't idiots, they just have no other point of reference, everything they are told is controlled.

 

[Tom]

Here you go Tom & Ileks. Ben Anderson, who did the documentary "Holidays in the Axis of Evil" for the Beeb. He secretly visited Iran, Iraq, North Korea, Syria, Libya and Cuba.

Listen from 7m7s in.

His experience of the country comes from a state-sanctioned guided tour.

 

[old.Tohtori]

His experience of the country comes from a state-sanctioned guided tour.

And comparing other cultures to own ofcourse.

If you want a true POV on how horrible it is, should ask the people there. Afterall, no matter how "horrific" western peeps think it is, it doesn't matter one sh*t-ton if the people are happy.

It's the equivelant of internet trolls trying to tell people who enjoy a game, that it's sh*t, because they don't like it.

 

[Scouse]

Is the reaction to the death of kim jung il any more fake than the reaction to diana's death?

Listen to the thing I posted - he makes the same comparison. And yeah - I found the reaction to Diana's death totally fucked up and weird - but it wasn't fake.

His experience of the country comes from a state-sanctioned guided tour.

Did you listen to the thing, Tom?

Of course it was a state-sanctioned guided tour - but he's actually been there. Which is a rare thing, so I'll take his opinion over someone elses.

He also says that he spent hours and hours constantly debating with these people (he wasn't stopped from doing that - your own point was made in the interview) and the impression he got was that of religious indoctrination.

I think he says "like talking to a jehova's witness". And we've all debated with religious people - and generally find talking to these folk a frustrating waste of time because they're blinkered and cannot accept alternative evidence because they believe - and therefore blind themselves to the truth...

Seriously, Tom. Have a listen if you haven't.

 

[old.Tohtori]

And we've all debated with religious people - and generally find talking to these folk a frustrating waste of time because they're blinkered idiots who cannot accept alternative evidence because they believe...

That's you, not "all" and that's partly because you get blinkers the moment you hear religion mentioned.(denial of this in 5..4...) Don't project your insecurities, or paranoias, or just pure hatred as some kind of a blanket blame.

Your post also has one key word; impression.

He got the impression, which in clear cut way means "Not sure, might be, maybe."

 

[Scouse]

Toht, please stop posting near me. I'm trying to talk to someone who hasn't got a religious stick up his arse.

I know your point of view, I think it's a pile of shit, I don't feel the need to debate it with you constantly.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Nice cop-out when you get called on something, but that's nothing new.

Ignore button, use it if you don't like something coming into your blinkerview.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

North Koreans love the Jong-Il regime so much they constantly try and flee the country, knowing full well they'll probably die doing so. But it's all out of love for their dear leader!

The generalisation you're putting on the NK people is laughable Scouse. It's not that black and white, stop making it out like it is. Do some more reading on North Korea, from underground sources or interviews with people who have escaped, it'll give you a much better picture of what's going on, as it's fairly clear you only have a surface level understanding of the country.

 

[Mabs]

Toht, please stop posting near me. I'm trying to talk to someone who hasn't got a religious stick up his arse.

I know your point of view, I think it's a pile of shit, I don't feel the need to debate it with you constantly.

dont like other people being allowed an opinion that deviates from your own ?
quick , move to north korea, i believe there is a job opening suited to you

 

[old.Tohtori]

Why didn't i think of that reply Mabs

Guess i'm indoctrinated the wrong ways

 

[Tom]

Did you listen to the thing, Tom?

Of course it was a state-sanctioned guided tour - but he's actually been there. Which is a rare thing, so I'll take his opinion over someone elses.

He also says that he spent hours and hours constantly debating with these people (he wasn't stopped from doing that - your own point was made in the interview) and the impression he got was that of religious indoctrination.

I think he says "like talking to a jehova's witness". And we've all debated with religious people - and generally find talking to these folk a frustrating waste of time because they're blinkered and cannot accept alternative evidence because they believe - and therefore blind themselves to the truth...

Seriously, Tom. Have a listen if you haven't.

What makes you think I didn't listen? I wouldn't make a statement about something I was entirely ignorant of without saying so. Maybe if he'd visited those in internment camps, or those dying of starvation, he'd get a different point of view. And visiting North Korea is by no means rare, Chinese tourists go there often.

The North Koreans aren't stupid, they know there's a whole different world on the outside. One only has to listen to a radio to understand that, and while radios may be something of a rarity there, word gets around.

 

[Scouse]

I think the reality of what I'm saying and what people think I'm saying is getting confused:

The generalisation you're putting on the NK people is laughable Scouse. It's not that black and white, stop making it out like it is.

Yes. It is a generalisation Waz. I'm saying "in general they love their dear leader".

I'm NOT saying that it's not a repressive abhorrent regime that kills and represses it's people. It's a horrid regime that, if there's a single dissenter in the family they round the whole lot up and wang them in a gulag - then tell the neighbours that they were evil.

I'm saying that they've been indoctrinated. In the same way that the catholic church used torture and murder on an industrial scale to force people to think in a certain way for their own safety.

And, you know what, after a number of years you had millions of happy-clapper christians who mete out a (slightly less permanent) form of violence to their own children in order to force them to believe that what the church says is absolute truth - that there's an invisible man who's watching their every move and they'll go to hell if they don't do what the church says.

Of course, there were always "unbelievers". They kept quiet, or were killed, or tried to leave - just like in North Korea. But the majority of people believe, whether fully or simply through a survival instinct - that Kim Jong Il was their "dear leader" and a deity.

What makes you think I didn't listen? I wouldn't make a statement about something I was entirely ignorant of without saying so. Maybe if he'd visited those in internment camps, or those dying of starvation, he'd get a different point of view. And visiting North Korea is by no means rare, Chinese tourists go there often.

The North Koreans aren't stupid, they know there's a whole different world on the outside. One only has to listen to a radio to understand that, and while radios may be something of a rarity there, word gets around.

I thought maybe you hadn't listened because I made a lot of points that you've not responded to. And you've just made points that have already been refuted in the interview by the guy who actually went there.

Yes, if he'd visited those internment camps and saw those dying of starvation he'll have seen some horrible atrocities - but "got a different point of view"? He knows that that is what it's like. He knows that they've been forced into a belief system through violence.

I know auschwitz exists and that hitler used to burn Jews (and others) there - but do you think if I bothered to visit I'd suddenly have a "different point of view"?

Of course not - attendence isn't necessary.

The (bulk of) the North Korean people have been indoctrinated. Through violence and through their children going to school and being indoctrinated.

Yes, subversive radio stations exist - and people who try to flee the country of course exist - and horrible violence still goes on.

What I fail to see is how this is any different from what the catholics did. And there's fuckloads of catholics who are willing to die for their church, who protect the institution of paedo's.

I'm not denying the violence - I'm saying that, in general, North Koreans now support him - and many of them feel a real sense of loss.

The North Koreans aren't stupid, they know there's a whole different world on the outside.

I'm not saying they're stupid. I'm saying they've suffered indoctrination and submitted. They know there is a different world but like catholics denying the evidence a large proportion of them believe that the world outside is "evil" and denouce the rumors as "propaganda" - because they've been taught since they were children that it is so...

dont like other people being allowed an opinion that deviates from your own ?

Nah, Mabs. I welcome the argument. With toht it's a special case. I can't move on Freddyshouse without him rubbing himself up against my leg like a needy puppy, in every single thread. He's derailing threads I post in with "you hate religion" pops, even when the thread has fuck all to do with the argument.

I'm telling Toht that I'm no longer willing to debate it with him constantly - because we're getting absolutely nowhere. - I've just posted about religious belief with gohan in another thread. I'm happy to do that.

Just not with Toht.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Hrh, what you special snowflake fail to realise is that i post to EVERYTHING.

You're not that special, you're not even special, you just are. Well ok, maybe you're a bit "special".

 

[Scouse]

Y'see Mabs?

Very. Next. Post. And, predictably, the same in the thread with Gohan.

I'm wondering if Deebs'll consider changing the name of the forum to TalkToTohtoriHouse

 

[Tom]

I'm not saying they're stupid. I'm saying they've suffered indoctrination and submitted. They know there is a different world but like catholics denying the evidence a large proportion of them believe that the world outside is "evil" and denouce the rumors as "propaganda" - because they've been taught since they were children that it is so...

I think you're casually ignoring your own prejudices when you form such judgements. It's impossible to form a general picture of what daily life is for North Koreans, and so we can only guess. The observations of individuals on state-controlled guided tours aren't particularly reliable. Filling in the gaps with your personal suspicions is just lazy.

 

[Scouse]

I think you're casually ignoring your own prejudices when you form such judgements. It's impossible to form a general picture of what daily life is for North Koreans, and so we can only guess. The observations of individuals on state-controlled guided tours aren't particularly reliable. Filling in the gaps with your personal suspicions is just lazy.

I'd counter that by saying that I think it's you who's being lazy and relying on your own suspicion of how the country is.

A couple of years ago I'd have agreed with you and said that North Korea was a country ruled by fear. I've changed my mind through what I've read and heard about the place...

 

[old.Tohtori]

Y'see Mabs?

Very. Next. Post. And, predictably, the same in the thread with Gohan.

I'm wondering if Deebs'll consider changing the name of the forum to TalkToTohtoriHouse

You know why it seems like i'm always answering to you? Because i don't particulary like generalising hate-spouters and you only notice those who are "against" you.

if i'm in a discussion with someone, i tend to...get this...respond! I have ample time during the day at work to reply, and i know a secret button called F5.

As said, you're not special, i do this to every single person around here. As far as HOW i answer, well, read above.

Now i'm going to drop this off-topic discussion, which you no doubt have more to say on, and concentrate on discussing the topic at hand on a GENERAL discussion board.

 

[Tom]

I'd counter that by saying that I think it's you who's being lazy and relying on your own suspicion of how the country is.

A couple of years ago I'd have agreed with you and said that North Korea was a country ruled by fear. I've changed my mind through what I've read and heard about the place...

Actually it's similar to the discussion on religion, where you posit that atheism is a lack of belief in the supernatural, a position I agree with. In this instance, I suppose that given the lack of good data, it's best not to read too much into too little.

 

[Scouse]

Actually it's similar to the discussion on religion, where you posit that atheism is a lack of belief in the supernatural, a position I agree with. In this instance, I suppose that given the lack of good data, it's best not to read too much into too little.

I'd go with that, if you'd been jumping on the people who said that NK is controlled through fear - but you haven't.

If there's a "lack of good data" then there's a lack of good data both ways

 

[Aoami]

North Koreans love the Jong-Il regime so much they constantly try and flee the country, knowing full well they'll probably die doing so. But it's all out of love for their dear leader!

This. If they love it so much why do they flee at any given opportunity?

No one knows what is going through the minds of the south Koreans, its all speculation. You can't say that they are all really happy, and journos that have been there are no more qualified to give an opinion IMO as they don't know what's going on behind the scenes.

 

[gohan]

This. If they love it so much why do they flee at any given opportunity?

No one knows what is going through the minds of the south Koreans, its all speculation. You can't say that they are all really happy, and journos that have been there are no more qualified to give an opinion IMO as they don't know what's going on behind the scenes.

and if we don't know what the south koreans are thinking we've no chance with the north koreans

 

[Aoami]

fnarr fnarr

 

[Scouse]

This. If they love it so much why do they flee at any given opportunity?

All of them are trying to flee?

If that was the case - they'd all do it en-masse. And succeed too. But they aren't.

More complex argument please. I've said that there are North Koreans who try to leave, NK's who get killed for protesting, NK's that live in fear and NK's that believe hard in their dear leader because of the indoctrination...

I don't think anyone has said they're all really happy.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

Fucking hell you'd think they'd succeed given the military stations around the country? You clearly know nothing about this. If they all tried to leave en-masse they'd be mowed down like the fucking Somme. Seriously, GO READ ABOUT ESCAPING FROM NORTH KOREA. Stop talking nonsense

 

[Wazzerphuk]

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/02/north-korea/oneill-text

Has some interesting quotes from "indoctrined" Koreans who are still desperate to get out of the country despite their lack of knowledge of Dear Leader's activities. Etc.

Not sure why you think just because some people may have been heavily influenced are happy to live in a country of obvious corruption and immense poverty. Oh wait, it's because they love dear leader! Not that if they get caught trying to defect they'll probably be killed.

 

[Scouse]

Good stuff

I've read that before Waz. Shocking, I know. But just to be fair to you I read it again.

IMO it has only slight bearing on the conversation we're having and tells a story which is overwhelmingly "out of the frying pan, into the fire". It's a story about the utterly horrid life experiences and points of view of defectors that have left NK - and I don't dispute any of it.

It does, however, contain several pieces of information that support what I've been saying - about the indoctrination that we all know is going on inside and, as can be seen in the article, outside NK:

Chun prefers that the North Koreans he helps adopt Christianity, but he accepts that a defector's professed belief may be skin-deep, a means of survival. "Many are not real Christians," he told me. "For them it isn't that different from believing in Kim Il Sung to believing in God. They change in head, not heart."

It also starts by saying

The exodus from North Korea began in the mid-1990s as a devastating famine broke out across the country

.

Nothing like hunger to make you want to leave a country. I'd want out too. But mid-90's? How long has North Korea been North Korea?


Question: Have you listened to the radio piece I posted? What do you think?