July 1st, Smoke Free England & smoking lounges

[Chronictank]

For me i go to a pub to socialise. I seldom drink these days and a number of my friends will be sparking up every 10-15 minutes. Coming home i absolutely stink of smoke, not nice.

When a friend consumes food or alcohol, that doesn't effect me. They are consuming it for themselves, there is nothing about that transferring to me. When people smoke, i'm close by so more than likely i'm inhaling it.

How is that relevant to my example?, we are talking about smoking in the context of a smoking bar, the same way we are talking about drinking in the context of a pub

Alcohol and junk food are proven to have long term health problems when excessively consumed. Junk food once or twice a week is fine. Alcohol is proven to actually improve your health when consumed sensibly.

Junk food is bad for you, regardless how much you consume. Alcohol in the majority of cases is bad for you regardless how much you consume, it is a drug that slows down parts of your brain. Drinking alcohol can make you feel more relaxed but it also makes it harder to think clearly, make good decisions and do various tasks , one of the only excemtions (arguably) being wine there are studies on both sides of the fence. If you ask most doctors they will tell you the most healthy way is to not drink alcohol at all

Smoking on the other hand poses no positive health benefits whatsoever and does not have the same risks associated with it.

Smoking tobacco free shisha's has no more risk to your health than walking down the street in london, but this is besides the point. If i CHOOSE to do it in a place designated for it, why shouldnt i have the same freedom people who do things that are bad for them have

And for anyone who says passive smoking has no risk, what on earth are you talking about

read the whole sentence, second hand smoke in the majority of cases in a smoking bar is null because the majority of people in there will be smoking it first hand

Ban smoking, ban alcohol, ban junk food. I only partake in one of those 3 every once in a while, it's no big deal to me.

Point is, if the ban is to stop people hurting themselves via smoking then all the other things deemed "unhealthy" should be banned too.
Including going to the gym, as you could possibly hurt yourself if you dont to it right. In addition some people get addicted to the "high" they get from it, so it is addictive and could potentially hurt you, lets ban it too!

 

[Bahumat]

Actually if we're at a bar and i smoke(before the ban) and noone else smoked at the table, i moved to another table for the smoking period.

It's the inconsiderate bastard smokers(much like the inconsiderate drinkers) who are the problem.

but that's again a point that's just me being against everything(what a f*cking copout that's become).

Yeah i respect people like you who are considerate enough to move. The only time i get really annoyed is when we're all at a table and someone smokes whilst we're all eating. Its worse if they haven't ordered food.

 

[Bugz]

Actually if we're at a bar and i smoke(before the ban) and noone else smoked at the table, i moved to another table for the smoking period.

Only problem with that is the smoke will still travel about and be inhaled unless the place has a well ventilated system.

 

[Solo]

It's the inconsiderate bastard smokers(much like the inconsiderate drinkers) who are the problem.

I will definitely agree with you on that. Say you are working, go outside to have your lunch sit on a bench and someone starts smoking nearby and all of it is drifting your way-discusting and very rude.

Also the fucking annoying fat chav bints who just swing around on the dancefloor smoking and keep burning people obliviously- again utterly inconsiderate.

 

[Overdriven]

Only problem with that is the smoke will still travel about and be inhaled unless the place has a well ventilated system.

Was waiting for somebody to bring this up, just reminds me about a Lee Evans thing, about the smoke not knowing where to go.

Smoking/Non-Smoking sections are useless, smoke will continue to move till it either goes through vents or just goes outside... So regardless, non-smoking sections are usless It's just like prolonging death, either way you will breath in smoke.


God damn, why can't everyone just smoke. -_-

 

[Killswitch]

I'm torn about this...on one hand, I resent the whole "Nanny State" thing and I want to believe that people are capable of making the right decisions and of respecting their peers. However, this is provably not the case, never has been and never will be.

I don't smoke...not because of any particular moral or health belief on my part, but simply because a) I don't want to and b) I can't afford to.

I find it hard to argue against the fact that people should have the right to walk into a public space and not be assaulted by a variety of stink and airborne carcinogens. I think that the only argument FOR smoking being allowed AT ALL is that it's been done for so long. Does anyone think that if cigarettes were invented now in 2007 they would be legal in any first-world country?

All the above comparisons have flaws and mine is no different I'm sure. I would compare it more to taking a super-soaker into a pub. Would you be happy if I was sat at the next table to you in a restaurant showering you, your meal and your date with water? To be honest, you'd be a damn sight better off than if I was blowing cigarette smoke all over you!!

People mention special interest locations like Cigar Clubs or Shisha Bars and say they should be exempt since they are venues dedicated to smoking and serve no other purpose. That said, they still need to be staffed and cleaned, they need electricians and other contractors to work there, they need to allow access to public health officials, licensing officials, salesmen. These are people who need to visit the premises and their health needs to be protected too. (I know this is slightly silly, but I reckon it's a valid point)

It's a tough question and I'm not sure where I really stand on the issue...but I'll be damn happy when I next walk into a pub and don't spend the first 15 minutes pulling faces and coughing!

 

[Thorwyn]

There actually were non-smoking bars, but they don't want their freedom limited to choose their bar.

But the choice of the bar is not solely determined by smoke. It´s determined by your company, the prices, the music, the chicks, the location, even the brand of beer. Everything I do is limited by things I don´t want/like, so why not this?

 

[old.Tohtori]

Only problem with that is the smoke will still travel about and be inhaled unless the place has a well ventilated system.

Yes ofcourse, but it lessens the nuisance atleast. Hell, most considerate smokers don't mind the ban, it has upsides that are mighty fine.

Like said, it's all good and fine, but my whole point in this thread with the food and drink examples wasn't to defend the smoke ban(like some thought and decided to call me names/banter my reputation for ), but to show what MIGHT come next.

Stop drinking to stop drunk driving.
Mark people with gps tags to find criminals.
Remove anger with a pill to reduce domestic violence.

And a couple of years later, we're at the equilibrium stage and you all know how well that goes.

But the choice of the bar is not solely determined by smoke. It´s determined by your company, the prices, the music, the chicks, the location, even the brand of beer. Everything I do is limited by things I don´t want/like, so why not this?

I was actually being a bit ironic in my comment as to act like one of the non-smokeys

By the way, all non-smokeys can agree that saying things like "I just cough and pull faces for 15 minutes" and "I feel repugnant all night and can't enjoy the night" because of smoke is a bit overkill. Seems rather many people could go out hapily without a problem, smile and hook up and take it as a "necessary evil" without twice thinking about health risks before going there, before the smoke ban was brought up.

 

[Calaen]

Instead of finding regimentations for everything: why don´t they let common sense try to solve the problem? Leave it up to the pub/restaurant/bar owner to make his establishment smoker or non-smoker. And BANG - fuck me sideways - all problems are gone! If you´re a smoker, get in and puff your ciggie. If you´re a non-smoker and don´t mind second hand smoking, get in and enjoy your stay. If you´re a non-smoker and don´t want second hand smoking... do the unspeakable and STAY OUT.

I know that the general statement behind all those bans is to make clear that smoking is dangerous. But if it is, why don´t they ban it for good? The government makes millions of cash from smokers. And the attempt to "protect" people from smoking is a tad hypocritical.

The they wont ban smoking statement because of cash is bollocks, alot people will eventually stop and the money they now have will still be pumped back into the economy.

Toh, I have no problem with you or anyone else in this world. I am merely having a discussion and airing my views, when I see you comparing things that are just plain silly I find it necessary to bring it up.

I cannot remember the last time I had a drink spilled on me, even when I was away on a stag do in Magaluf.

 

[Chronictank]

People mention special interest locations like Cigar Clubs or Shisha Bars and say they should be exempt since they are venues dedicated to smoking and serve no other purpose. That said, they still need to be staffed and cleaned, they need electricians and other contractors to work there, they need to allow access to public health officials, licensing officials, salesmen. These are people who need to visit the premises and their health needs to be protected too. (I know this is slightly silly, but I reckon it's a valid point)

It's a tough question and I'm not sure where I really stand on the issue...but I'll be damn happy when I next walk into a pub and don't spend the first 15 minutes pulling faces and coughing!

First of all, have a rep for the first coherant and valid argument against it in this thread.
This may be true but those people can choose whether to service the property or not, also they can take precautions to ensure they arent affected (wearing breathing aparatus for example like they do with asbestos).
a far more sensible approach would have been to ensure the places were well ventilated (the majority of them are anyway), this would also remove the majority of the risk.

 

[Thorwyn]

The they wont ban smoking statement because of cash is bollocks, alot people will eventually stop and the money they now have will still be pumped back into the economy.

Urm... sorry.. but that´s simply nonsense.
There are TAXES on tobaco. The government earns money just by saying: "yes, you are allowed to sell this". The money is going directly into the governments purses, without any compensation whatsoever. That´s a huge difference to just bringing money into the economy by selling/buying goods.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Toh, I have no problem with you or anyone else in this world. I am merely having a discussion and airing my views, when I see you comparing things that are just plain silly I find it necessary to bring it up.

And when you do, i find it necessary to call you on it for not being able to discuss things without that old copout thing But if you read my arguments based on the fact i was TRYING to bring, i think you'll find i was more right then you thought.

Though should be honored that i have my personal copout thingy...i think...heck, must have done/said something effective to get that

 

[Vladamir]

How is that relevant to my example?, we are talking about smoking in the context of a smoking bar, the same way we are talking about drinking in the context of a pub

Like i said in my first post i've never been to a smoking bar. Do as you please there

Junk food is bad for you, regardless how much you consume. Alcohol in the majority of cases is bad for you regardless how much you consume, it is a drug that slows down parts of your brain. Drinking alcohol can make yo
you feel more relaxed but it also makes it harder to think clearly, make good decisions and do various tasks , one of the only excemtions (arguably) being wine there are studies on both sides of the fence. If you ask most doctors they will tell you the most healthy way is to not drink alcohol at all

In this case we're talking about excessive consumption. 1 pint/glass of wine every evening/every other evening has been proved to improve general health in conjunction with a healthy lifestyle. Unfortunately the culture of alcohol, especially in England, is to consume as much as you possibly can and hold it down. You will fuck your liver and brain doing that, no doubt about it. However the amount suggested by doctors (21 units for men, 14 for women or something like that?) are sensible amounts that will not impact on your health

Smoking tobacco free shisha's has no more risk to your health than walking down the street in london

Fair point, again i don't know anything about Shisha's so thats not for me to question. I've been referring to general tobacco smoking.

read the whole sentence, second hand smoke in the majority of cases in a smoking bar is null because the majority of people in there will be smoking it first hand

As above

Point is, if the ban is to stop people hurting themselves via smoking then all the other things deemed "unhealthy" should be banned too.

There is nothing healthy about smoking cigarettes, nor weed and so on. Shisha's again i don't know.

Including going to the gym, as you could possibly hurt yourself if you dont to it right. In addition some people get addicted to the "high" they get from it, so it is addictive and could potentially hurt you, lets ban it too!

The only way you hurt yourself in the gym is if you're a misinformed stupid tart who tries to overload themselves beyond belief by sticking xxx kg's of weight on a machine/bar and trying to lift it, or trying to sprint like a world class athlete for too long just to impress the girl on the treadmill next to you.

Indeed you can get addicted to the high from exercise, i know i am. But i support this physical work with adequate rest & nutrition which makes it a much healthier lifestyle than many.

Ignorance certainly isn't bliss in this case, but its funny for me to watch

 

[Calaen]

Point is, if the ban is to stop people hurting themselves via smoking then all the other things deemed "unhealthy" should be banned too.
Including going to the gym, as you could possibly hurt yourself if you dont to it right. In addition some people get addicted to the "high" they get from it, so it is addictive and could potentially hurt you, lets ban it too!

I believe the ban is to stop people hurting other people without actually being aware of it. Again the use of ban the gym shows how silly people are being. We might as well just blow up the world. Because anything can happen at any particular time which may hurt someone.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I believe the ban is to stop people hurting other people without actually being aware of it. Again the use of ban the gym shows how silly people are being. We might as well just blow up the world. Because anything can happen at any particular time which may hurt someone.

And yet, with smoking getting the ban stick, we still have things like guns etc that are far more dangerous

 

[Killswitch]

This may be true but those people can choose whether to service the property or not, also they can take precautions to ensure they arent affected (wearing breathing aparatus for example like they do with asbestos).

I guess the problem is simply that government can't trust people to make sensible choices. Someone who is desperate for cash might take a job in a "Smoking Club" because it's the only job they can find. If this has an impact on their health later, they will be a drain (possibly for many years) on the NHS and it could affect their family, leave their children without a mother or some other thing.

The amount of money spent by the NHS on smoking-related illnesses is truly staggering, although I'm not sure if it's more or less than the money they make in taxes to be fair. I've watched family members die quite unpleasant deaths from illnesses that are very likely to have their roots in smoking. Public information campaigns, education and fairly disgusting "shock" adverts don't seem to have any impact on the number of people smoking or the number of people frequenting smoky pubs, bars and clubs.

Maybe it's just time to face up to the fact that people (as a collective) are idiots and we need our elected governments to make hard choices for us to protect us and the people around us.

 

[Chronictank]

The only way you hurt yourself in the gym is if you're a misinformed stupid tart who tries to overload themselves beyond belief by sticking xxx kg's of weight on a machine/bar and trying to lift it, or trying to sprint like a world class athlete for too long just to impress the girl on the treadmill next to you.

Exactly, there are people who do it, after all those morons are going to hurt themselves, the same way someone who goes to a smoking bar inhales second hand smoke is going to hurt themselves. so is it right it should be banned too?

Indeed you can get addicted to the high from exercise, i know i am. But i support this physical work with adequate rest & nutrition which makes it a much healthier lifestyle than many.

An addiction to the gym is no different from any other vice, an addict is an addict, one of the aims of smoke free is to reduce the number of people addicted to nicotine therefore under the same way of thinking (not that i agree with it), it should be applied to all things.

 

[Thadius]

Seesha places should be elft open. they are culteral and the Muslim version of a pub.

As Muslims cannot drink alchol, they need somewhere to go and chill out from the misses and kids.

Ah well Barmy Britain strikes again

 

[Chronictank]

Seesha places should be elft open. they are culteral and the Muslim version of a pub.

As Muslims cannot drink alchol, they need somewhere to go and chill out from the misses and kids.

Ah well Barmy Britain strikes again

I dont think its cosher to be fair (anything that harms you is technically "haram" or disallowed), just more socially acceptableand isnt explicitly not allowed.
The same way alcohol consumption is technically against christianity, sikhism etc etc, but moderate beleivers do it anyway

i dont think the issue should be about cultural places to chill out, it should simply be the fact that the place is designated for that purpose so it is not right to close it down

 

[Killswitch]

Seesha places should be elft open. they are culteral and the Muslim version of a pub.

As Muslims cannot drink alchol, they need somewhere to go and chill out from the misses and kids.

Ah well Barmy Britain strikes again

Whole new argument there Thad...should we risk people's health because of individual people's cultural or religious history? We don't allow capital punishment in the UK, but plenty of Texans live here. We don't allow violence against women which would be acceptable under Sharia law. Why should we change our laws about smoking based on Muslim history or culture?

Not saying you don't have a point by the way, I've always had a bee in my bonnet about this sort of thing. I can't shop after 4pm on a Sunday, I can't get a Chinese on a Monday night...

 

[Vladamir]

Exactly, there are people who do it, after all those morons are going to hurt themselves, the same way someone who goes to a smoking bar inhales second hand smoke is going to hurt themselves. so is it right it should be banned too?

If you go into a smoking bar and complain about the smoke, then you should be shot. I dont advocate smoking but as i mentioned before if it's done somewhere i'm not near then fine. It doesn't effect me so do as you please.

Why ban something that has so many benefits like a gym though?. Knowledge is power. Do it right and reap the benefits. Do it wrong and you'll get some benefits. Do it completely and entirely wrong and you'll risk hurting yourself. This is why they give gym inductions to cover themselves.

On no level can you compare the dangers of regular exercise to smoking.

 

[Calaen]

Yeah but the thing with guns is the crimes that are being committed are from weapons that are illegal anyway. Majority of gun owners adhere to the rules and regulations that are set.

 

[Bugz]

I think the discussion has really taken a turn for the worse when we compare gyms to smoking...

 

[Calaen]

I think the discussion has really taken a turn for the worse when we compare gyms to smoking...

oh yes

 

[old.Tohtori]

Yeah but the thing with guns is the crimes that are being committed are from weapons that are illegal anyway. Majority of gun owners adhere to the rules and regulations that are set.

Aye, wouldn't hurt to get rid of them though.

But then again, would be near anarchy without any guns.

Whole different matter really.

I'm just curious to see what the next flavor of "ban this" will be, this is getting a bit out of hand and that's the thing i don't like.

Like i've said in some smoking thread before, it's harder to find a good steak these days then it is a salad. That's just wrong.

Oh by the way, bugz, calaen, hope you got what i was aiming at with my examples. Not to compare them, but to show what it might be by taking basicly your side, in a "hypothetical" future discussion.

 

[Chronictank]

I think the discussion has really taken a turn for the worse when we compare gyms to smoking...

not really when done to excess it is bad for you, if it is bad for you surely it should be banned too? Regardless of the benefits if thats the mentality you have then it should be applied elsewhere also. I think vlad said it best

If you go into a smoking bar and complain about the smoke, then you should be shot.

it took a turn for the worst when individuals have a hard time distinguishing between smoking in a smoking lounge and smoking in places such as pubs and clubs

 

[Samaroon|Terracotta]

@Sama: Get a new job then, as mentioned; it's part of the culture... It's like asking McDonald staff not to be chavs... It happens, but it's rare... If you don't lile it, temp agencies are around.

Right, get a new job because I'm welcoming the new law? I like my job. I wasn't too fussed about people smoking where I work, but I prefer it much more with the ban in effect now.

Plus all the jibberjabber from old men/women moaning about it all the time is quality.

 

[Killswitch]

On no level can you compare the dangers of regular exercise to smoking.

Agreed...I guess the point here is that there will always be people who will choose to do things to harm themselves and others. There are many, many reasons though; lack of information, peer pressure, desperation, addiction and mental health problems are a few. Idiocy, ignorance, malice and a lack of respect for other people are other reasons.

The reason smoking is such an emotive issue is that no-one really understands the motivation clearly. Addiction is clearly one aspect, although people quit all the time and people start all the time. Lack of information is maybe another, but some people quit without knowing the full facts and some people who know all the facts (like doctors) smoke anyway. Lack of respect is a trickier one...certainly a smoker who comes and sits at my table while I'm eating IS showing a lack of respect...but one who sits in the designated "smoking" area is behaving acceptably. The fact the the "smoking" and "non-smoking" areas tend be separated by...a sign! Is it a magic, smoke-stopping sign?!?

The whole "Human Rights" issue is getting beyond a joke now. "I have the right to clean air!"..."I have the right to smoke!". I swear to God that I could probably go to the Court of Human Rights and claim that FH are infringing my human rights by limiting the number of emotes in my posts to 3 and have a good chance of winning!!

 

[Levin]

I have no idea if passive smoking is dangerous to your health, though it seems likely that it is. What I do know, is that personally I just have to be in the same house as someone smoking for me to get a blistering headache and feeling nauseated. That is on top of having my clothes and hair and everything I had with me ruined until i can wash the stench off. And no, it doesn't help if the smoker moves a few meters away and smoke there. Smoke has an uncanny ability to fill voids.

So... I support the bans.

However, I disagree with banning it from smoking houses. I think it's a good compromise to allow it in such places where it hurts nobody else. The electricians etc who visit once per three months or whatever.. well, that seems like a very small problem in comparison.

 

[yaruar]

Personally i'm all for the smoking ban, i used to be a smoker and i'm glad not to be reminded of how rank i used to smell

Although their is one downside... Fags used to cover up almost all the smells in pub, now when we go for a booze or two the pubs are going to smell of man sweat, vomit, stale beer and piss.
Mmmmmm