Fact It doesn't pay to help America...

[rynnor]

"Dominant" by coverage or biomass, maybe (and that's a definate "maybe"), but have bacteria produced great paintings, books, music, dance, arcitechture or technologies?

What does that matter to evolution and the universe at large? They just survive and reproduce - thats all that counts in the end.

They can resist the vacuumn of space, radiation, heat, cold - just about anything without reliance on technologies - thats a design thats built to last.

 

[Wij]

We havent evolved technology - our changes are a side effect of intelligence (which was evolved) but are happening far too fast to be evolution.



Thats not my point but what you are really saying is that its ok to go to mars and trash the native biosphere because we are more important/ more valuable / have a divine right - delete as applicable. Thats the attitude that trashed the earth and you want to transport it around the solar system?

It's ok to trash europan bacteria because nothing would ever come of it. It's just sludge.

 

[Scouse]

Deliberately? All species go extinct - some hang on longer than others (particularly in the sea) but they all go in the end and so will we - colonies on hostile worlds would be pathetically vulnerable - to seriously think this would somehow prevent us going extinct is self delusion.

Don't be daft. We're talking about a necessary step in the potential spread of human life across the universe. Life from earth would gain immunity from events such as the death of our sun, or supernovae.

To not try to do that IS to deliberately and wilfully render our species to all sorts of threats that we could possibly avoid - most of which would be our own doing.

Or do you prefer that we should be a timid and scared species, condemned to live on the 3rd planet from the sun in this solar system only, when we've a whole universe that is just begging to be explored?

 

[Scouse]

What does that matter to evolution and the universe at large? They just survive and reproduce - thats all that counts in the end.

Rubbish. You ever bought a CD? Why? It doesn't count? Watched a film? Why? It doesn't count. Told your girlfriend you loved her? Why? She just needs fucking, why not just rape her?


AS for the "what does it count to evolution or the universe" - *we* are the "universe" - experiencing itself subjectively. And if it matters to us, it matters to the universe.

 

[Wij]

Fascinating scientifically but nothing to value as something that has any rights.

 

[Raven]

Art is important to us but not necessarily to another advanced life form. A more advanced life form might consider us pointless (noobs haven't even left their solar system yet lol)and destroy is for our water or any other useful shit we have lying around.

 

[rynnor]

It's ok to trash europan bacteria because nothing would ever come of it. It's just sludge.

We came from sludge

 

[Scouse]

A more advanced life form might consider us pointless (noobs haven't even left their solar system yet lol)and destroy is for our water or any other useful shit we have lying around.

True. But they may not. - Rynnor is evidence for the latter argument. He's worried about microbes in our own solar system. Maybe aliens would have respect for other life - if they are that technologically advanced they could probably manufacture the elements they needed and wouldn't have to tool around the universe destroying other potential civilisations...

 

[Scouse]

We came from sludge

And continuing your idea of not colonising other planets to protect that other sludge would condem our sludge, which has undergone millions of years of evolution, to inevitable death...

 

[rynnor]

Or do you prefer that we should be a timid and scared species, condemned to live on the 3rd planet from the sun in this solar system only, when we've a whole universe that is just begging to be explored?

We are exploring it without sending watery bags of meat out - unmanned probes, sattelites etc. have gathered far more information than sending humans up - exactly what have we learned about the universe by sending up some humans into space?

 

[Raven]

By your own reasoning, they aren't destroying themselves, so technically they are more successful than us.

 

[rynnor]

Rubbish. You ever bought a CD? Why? It doesn't count? Watched a film? Why? It doesn't count. Told your girlfriend you loved her? Why? She just needs fucking, why not just rape her?


AS for the "what does it count to evolution or the universe" - *we* are the "universe" - experiencing itself subjectively. And if it matters to us, it matters to the universe.

Lol - 'we are the universe' - I'm afraid thats just human conceit talking - the Universe doesnt care about art

 

[rynnor]

And continuing your idea of not colonising other planets to protect that other sludge would condem our sludge, which has undergone millions of years of evolution, to inevitable death...

Everything is condemned to inevitable death - thats just the reality we live in - accept it or not it remains the truth.

 

[Scouse]

Lol - 'we are the universe' - I'm afraid thats just human conceit talking - the Universe doesnt care about art

Not true. We demonstrably are the universe.

Inert matter coalesced to form the earth. Hundreds of millions of years later that matter reached such an arrangement as to become protiens, then bacterial forms, then all the steps up to mankind today - an arrangement of the universe's matter that can and has intellectualised this process, can and has started to understand it.

The matter itself hasn't changed. It's the same matter that is spread across the universe, it forms our bodies and we are located within the universe. We are part of the universe. Part of it that can have experiences.

Therefore we are a part of the universe that can experience itself.

Q.E.D.


Just because you find the idea a bit gay doesn't make it factually inaccurate. It's absolutely correct.

 

[Scouse]

Everything is condemned to inevitable death - thats just the reality we live in - accept it or not it remains the truth.

I don't accept that inevitability.

If we colonise the universe maybe we'll struggle along to the heat death and that will be it. But perhaps not - perhaps the multiverse theory is correct. Perhaps there are other universes to explore and in the future we'll find ways to explore them.

We will never get to find out if we take your defeatist attitude tho


Edit: Also, even if heat death is the ultimate end, why do you object to mankind trying to get that far?

 

[rynnor]

Not true. We demonstrably are the universe.

Inert matter coalesced to form the earth. Hundreds of millions of years later that matter reached such an arrangement as to become protiens, then bacterial forms, then all the steps up to mankind today - an arrangement of the universe's matter that can and has intellectualised this process, can and has started to understand it.

The matter itself hasn't changed. It's the same matter that is spread across the universe, it forms our bodies and we are located within the universe. We are part of the universe. Part of it that can have experiences.

Therefore we are a part of the universe that can experience itself.

Q.E.D.


Just because you find the idea a bit gay doesn't make it factually inaccurate. It's absolutely correct.

Lol - its based on a flawed view that evolution was a path leading to us - thats demonstrably wrong and ridiculously humanocentric - if your going to believe this sort of nonsense you might as well go back to religion while your at it.

A few less mass extinctions and the lands might be populated by a type of trilobite rather than mammals etc.

Why dont you drink the blood of a bull to take on its strength while your at it I mean really

 

[rynnor]

Edit: Also, even if heat death is the ultimate end, why do you object to mankind trying to get that far?

Why does it matter - you'll be long dead - just enjoy today for tommorow you may be dead or something

 

[Wij]

We came from sludge

Yes but we weren't trapped under ice and had a source of heat that was guaranteed for billions of years. Any europan life would get nowhere. It would never get beyond sludge.

 

[rynnor]

Yes but we weren't trapped under ice and had a source of heat that was guaranteed for billions of years. Any europan life would get nowhere. It would never get beyond sludge.

Only if we judge it based on our knowledge of terrestrial life - we really dont know is the only truthful answer.

 

[Scouse]

Lol - its based on a flawed view that evolution was a path leading to us - thats demonstrably wrong and ridiculously humanocentric - if your going to believe this sort of nonsense you might as well go back to religion while your at it.

A few less mass extinctions and the lands might be populated by a type of trilobite rather than mammals etc.

I understand evolution perfectly and don't disagree with your statements above about evolution. It absolutely doesn't inexorably lead to us. Where did I say that? If you read my posts you can see that I state that the bacteria on mars have no chance of getting this far.

It's the statement "we are the universe" is absolutely not based on any "flawed view". It's a simple statement of fact.

1) We are made up of matter found commonly in the universe.
2) We exist in the universe.
3) We must be part of the universe.
4) We can "experience" things.
5) We are therefore part of the universe that can experience things.

Simple, eh? No "belief" needed.

Or am I incorrect with those 5 statements? If so, can you please argue cogently against them. If you can come up with good reasons I may change my opinion.

 

[Scouse]

Why does it matter - you'll be long dead - just enjoy today for tommorow you may be dead or something

I suppose in the end it matters nothing either way. But then, by that same thinking, it doesn't matter one jot if someone murders you. Or your family. Or rapes your mum.

Not trying to be offensive - just showing you what I think is the idiocy of your thinking.

 

[rynnor]

Yes but we weren't trapped under ice and had a source of heat that was guaranteed for billions of years. Any europan life would get nowhere. It would never get beyond sludge.

Also how do you know that they dont have a heat source that will last billions of years - radiogenic heating would last that long and more.

 

[rynnor]

I suppose in the end it matters nothing either way. But then, by that same thinking, it doesn't matter one jot if someone murders you. Or your family. Or rapes your mum.

Good luck with the last one - she's just dust particles floating in the sea now. Of course those things would bother me as I'm alive now but why would the eventual demise of humanity in some far distant time bother you?

 

[rynnor]

1) We are made up of matter found commonly in the universe.
2) We exist in the universe.
3) We must be part of the universe.
4) We can "experience" things.
5) We are therefore part of the universe that can experience things.

These things are all true for bacteria or the mould on old bread - why do you think this makes us 'special' ?

 

[Wij]

Also how do you know that they dont have a heat source that will last billions of years - radiogenic heating would last that long and more.

Tidal heating would provide far more heat than radiogenic sources but life would be concentrated around thermal vents. Vents stop eventually and the organisms around would die out. Pockets of life will be too isolated to undergo millions of years of evolution.

Also, you need energy, not just heat. The Sun doesn't just warm the planet.

 

[Wij]

These things are all true for bacteria or the mould on old bread - why do you think this makes us 'special' ?

Mould experiences things?

 

[rynnor]

Tidal heating would provide far more heat than radiogenic sources

Based on what? That much depends on its makeup. Radiogenic heat would power convection currents under the ice sheet as liquid warmed at the base rises and is cooled and sinks back again.

 

[Scouse]

I noticed you've not answered my question (or challenge, if you like). So I take it you have been convinced and now agree?

Anyway:

These things are all true for bacteria or the mould on old bread - why do you think this makes us 'special' ?

They are indeed true for mould and bacteria. Mold and bacteria are probably much less common than gold and diamonds in the universe and indeed are "special".

It's likely we're even more rare and precious. Sentient beings with an ability to comprehend their place in the universe and their part of it. Amazing! That makes us even more special.


Do you not think life is special? I thought you were arguing that bacteria on Mars would be so special that we, as alternative life-forms, shouldn't disturb them?

Good luck with the last one - she's just dust particles floating in the sea now. Of course those things would bother me as I'm alive now but why would the eventual demise of humanity in some far distant time bother you?

Which bit of the sea? My dad's bits are in the Menai Straights (or were).

The eventual demise of humanity doesn't bother me so much as your desire to hasten it. Why would you not have ambition for your race to travel to the stars and experience what it can experience?

I also hope for people all over the world to have long, happy, productive and fulfilling lives. - I've never met them. Why shouldn't I hope that mankind's children experience the same?

 

[rynnor]

Mould experiences things?

Who knows - do plants? do bacteria?

 

[Scouse]

Who knows - do plants? do bacteria?

I don't know. What I do know is that humans do...