Is this what society has come to?

[Gwadien]

Tell me @Job what would you contribute to a trans discussion?

 

[Job]

If I set up a forum that supported people who were trying to get dogs officially accepted as sentient and I put a mod message at the top that anyone who says they arent can fuck off and will be insta banned.

Do you think that would be productive?

Do you think its healthy to have such openly biased and bigoted moderators?

Is this a constructive way to keep the conversation going?

They are demanding we all just accept it and attack ..and even personally threaten thoeese who dont 100% agree.

Of course the moderate trans people will start to question their approach and then theyll be uncle toms and everyone will lose.

 

[Job]

A

Tell me @Job what would you contribute to a trans discussion?

Whole lot more than your blinkered view of me or any of your pet racist stereotypes.

 

[Gwadien]

If I set up a forum that supported people who were trying to get dogs officially accepted as sentient and I put a mod message at the top that anyone who says they arent can fuck off and will be insta banned.

Do you think that would be productive?

Do you think its healthy to have such openly biased and bigoted moderators?

Is this a constructive way to keep the conversation going?

They are demanding we all just accept it and attack ..and even personally threaten thoeese who dont 100% agree.

Of course the moderate trans people will start to question their approach and then theyll be uncle toms and everyone will lose.

What 'conversation' are you talking about?

You don't like anyone who isn't white, straight and male, you've made that very clear.

You want to be able to go and attack people, not have a 'conversation' but you want to attack people.

I really don't know how to get this in your head - If you belong to a minority where you're attacked (by like people like you) you might want a place where you can freely discuss and ask for advice, and not be subject to ridicule by trolls.

How do you not understand? Or have you rammed privilege so up your own arse you can't even comprehend prejudice?

 

[Scouse]

I get where you're coming from @Job - but there are appropriate forums to discuss between like-minded people and forums open to challenge.

To mirror the real world - I get to invite who comes into my house to discuss things. Outside, anyone can pitch in - whether I like it or not.

 

[Raven]

Ha...there you go.

Typical liberal approach..it doesnt affect me directly, so you have no right of opinion.
How the living fuck can you support a discussion forum that only allows people who agree with their opinions.
It just bubbles people who are trying to be accepted into society, but it has to be on their own terms.
I didnt post it to say it shouldnt be allowed...just to give you an idea of their mindset.

What if, I as a bit of an amateur chippy and electrician (got it checked over by a proper electrician) were to go onto a part-time-may-or-may-not-be-retired-plumber forum and started arguing about their U-bends? It would be largely pointless.

 

[DaGaffer]

What is your problem?

It's like saying oh I'm going to set up a black rights group but the KKK are banned and you get pissed about it.

I know you have this concept of free speech when it suits you, but seriously, what issues do you have with making spaces so people can discuss the shit they're going through without having sad middle aged forum trolls winding them up?

Sorry but it absolutely isn't like that, and that's the whole point; people are labelled as TERFS when they are not Transphobic; they are just put into that box because they refuse to buy into the entirety of current trans-orthodoxy. That isn' t a way to have healthy debate, and that's the point, they don't want debate, they want dogma.

If the price of discussion is dealing with the odd troll, that's a price worth paying (as we all well know on here). Otherwise you're just creating an echo chamber.

 

[Gwadien]

Sorry but it absolutely isn't like that, and that's the whole point; people are labelled as TERFS when they are not Transphobic; they are just put into that box because they refuse to buy into the entirety of current trans-orthodoxy. That isn' t a way to have healthy debate, and that's the point, they don't want debate, they want dogma.

If the price of discussion is dealing with the odd troll, that's a price worth paying (as we all well know on here). Otherwise you're just creating an echo chamber.

So you don't think that people have the right to have a place where they can discuss their trans life without people diving in and being dickheads about it?

 

[DaGaffer]

So you don't think that people have the right to have a place where they can discuss their trans life without people diving in and being dickheads about it?

If "discussing one's trans life" means anyone with a different but valid opinion (e.g. see @Wij's example of the detransition person above) is silenced, no I don't. "TERF" is being used as a weapon; if your opening position is "we've set the rules and will not tolerate any dissent" then that's not a discussion forum that's totalitarianism.

 

[Gwadien]

If "discussing one's trans life" means anyone with a different but valid opinion (e.g. see @Wij's example of the detransition person above) is silenced, no I don't. "TERF" is being used as a weapon; if your opening position is "we've set the rules and will not tolerate any dissent" then that's not a discussion forum that's totalitarianism.

A. It's a forum, so people can do what ever they like, it's the internet, so let's not pretend it's controlled by laws of a country, because it isn't (and I thought you didn't want that anyway, interesting).

B. So say if raving Christian man jumped on a forum for the gays and started condemning everyone to death because of their sexuality, do you think that person should be removed from the discussion?

When someone comes out as trans and goes onto a forum and asks people for advice, I don't believe that it's right for someone to be there telling people that they don't have a right to exist etc, at the worst possible point of their life to be told that.

 

[DaGaffer]

A. It's a forum, so people can do what ever they like, it's the internet, so let's not pretend it's controlled by laws of a country, because it isn't (and I thought you didn't want that anyway, interesting).

B. So say if raving Christian man jumped on a forum for the gays and started condemning everyone to death because of their sexuality, do you think that person should be removed from the discussion?

When someone comes out as trans and goes onto a forum and asks people for advice, I don't believe that it's right for someone to be there telling people that they don't have a right to exist etc, at the worst possible point of their life to be told that.

A. By setting their stall out with "TERFs can fuck off", they are stating a non-neutral position. "TERF" is anti-trans because certain people have decided it is so and use it as a weapon. Its is this specific exclusion that I have an issue with because it is exclusionary against people who are NOT transphobic. This has nothing to do with the law, it is to do with chilling of debate even within pro-trans opinion.

B. You ban him, which would be much easier with a "no abusive behaviour" clause rather than "TERFs can fuck off".

Can't you see there there's a difference between managing trolls and stifling debate?

 

[Gwadien]

A. By setting their stall out with "TERFs can fuck off", they are stating a non-neutral position. "TERF" is anti-trans because certain people have decided it is so and use it as a weapon. Its is this specific exclusion that I have an issue with because it is exclusionary against people who are NOT transphobic. This has nothing to do with the law, it is to do with chilling of debate even within pro-trans opinion.

B. You ban him, which would be much easier with a "no abusive behaviour" clause rather than "TERFs can fuck off".

Can't you see there there's a difference between managing trolls and stifling debate?

What if they don't want a debate there? That's entirely the point.

As I say, it's just as ridiculous as saying why aren't Stonewall letting us debate why gays should burn in hell? They want to create a safe environment for people to come out, not an environment where you're going to be victims of the same kind of abuse that you get in the streets. It's like saying you're mad because Stonewall are saying 'No homophobes' and not 'no trolls'.

There's a suitable time and place for debates, you should not be chasing down individual minority forums in order to share your views on why they're not real and they're a joke.

 

[Yoni]

If an individual wants a safe place there are closed forums for that and in my view that is the purpose of a safe internet space. If a forum is open then so is the discussion with in a set of abusive behaviour rules .

 

[Gwadien]

If an individual wants a safe place there are closed forums for that and in my view that is the purpose of a safe internet space. If a forum is open then so is the discussion with in a set of abusive behaviour rules .

So you agree?

Or are you saying that Reddit isn't a closed forum so therefore it's fair game?

Because as far as I'm concerned, if you think you're trans, but you live in bible belt America, where else do you get your advice?

 

[Scouse]

I see both sides. But in the last example - stonewall would get a lot more done by talking to homophobes rather than screaming homophobe at them...

I see a requirement for a notionally safe space - private forums can be that. I can also see the pitfalls of safe-space echo chambers - if you can't build up your skin thickness on the not-physically-violent internet you're fucked it you wander into the real world.

 

[Gwadien]

I see both sides. But in the last example - stonewall would get a lot more done by talking to homophobes rather than screaming homophobe at them...

They do.

They fund educational programmes. I've had stuff from them in schools before.

But wasting time on people like @Job is just that, a waste.

 

[DaGaffer]

What if they don't want a debate there? That's entirely the point.

As I say, it's just as ridiculous as saying why aren't Stonewall letting us debate why gays should burn in hell? They want to create a safe environment for people to come out, not an environment where you're going to be victims of the same kind of abuse that you get in the streets. It's like saying you're mad because Stonewall are saying 'No homophobes' and not 'no trolls'.

There's a suitable time and place for debates, you should not be chasing down individual minority forums in order to share your views on why they're not real and they're a joke.

Once again, I'll refer you to @Wij's link. If you're 14 and on a forum and everyone's telling you the only answer is drugs and surgery, you don't think its OK for others to point out that isn't the only answer? There is NOT a single way to deal with Trans issues, but certain groups have decided there is. Tell me this, has there ever been any group in history who insist on a single rigid orthodoxy that's worked out well for anyone?

 

[Gwadien]

Once again, I'll refer you to @Wij's link. If you're 14 and on a forum and everyone's telling you the only answer is drugs and surgery, you don't think its OK for others to point out that isn't the only answer? There is NOT a single way to deal with Trans issues, but certain groups have decided there is. Tell me this, has there ever been any group in history who insist on a single rigid orthodoxy that's worked out well for anyone?

Homosexuality?

You're also suggesting that a 14 year old goes on a forum, gets told to take drugs and have surgery, and then they can go out to their local shop and get it all done.

It's not that simple.

 

[Scouse]

Homosexuality?

You're also suggesting that a 14 year old goes on a forum, gets told to take drugs and have surgery, and then they can go out to their local shop and get it all done.

It's not that simple.

But it is it correct for a vulnerable 14 year old to go onto a forum and never be exposed to the idea that those on the forum might be wrong?

The people on the forum might indeed be right, but if they don't allow dissent then it's tantamount to grooming...

 

[Gwadien]

But it is it correct for a vulnerable 14 year old to go onto a forum and never be exposed to the idea that those on the forum might be wrong?

The people on the forum might indeed be right, but if they don't allow dissent then it's tantamount to grooming...

But you can apply that to pretty much everything on the internet that 14 year olds can be exposed to.

I do remember when there were reports that video games are encouraging kids to shoot people with guns IRL you all shot that down pretty quickly.

Seems like largely the same thing to me.

 

[Wij]

Homosexuality?

You're also suggesting that a 14 year old goes on a forum, gets told to take drugs and have surgery, and then they can go out to their local shop and get it all done.

It's not that simple.

It’s not but a forum where ‘terf’ opinions are banned won’t be telling that girl that they might be depressed or have other mental issues. That would be insta-ban.

She’ll be getting advice on the best things to say to speed up the process of getting onto hormones. Mention suicidal thoughts and stuff.

 

[Wij]

But it is it correct for a vulnerable 14 year old to go onto a forum and never be exposed to the idea that those on the forum might be wrong?

The people on the forum might indeed be right, but if they don't allow dissent then it's tantamount to grooming...

Me in agreeing with something Scouse said in this thread shocker

 

[DaGaffer]

Homosexuality?

You're also suggesting that a 14 year old goes on a forum, gets told to take drugs and have surgery, and then they can go out to their local shop and get it all done.

It's not that simple.

If that 14 year old is being told to get drugs and surgery and the same zealots have made sure the Tavistock clinic has been captured by the same orthodoxy, then you have a reall problem, which is what's happening. That's entirely my point; this isn't a single string strategy.

You're right, its not that simple, but trans activists are trying to make it seem like it is and there's only one avenue.

 

[Gwadien]

If that 14 year old is being told to get drugs and surgery and the same zealots have made sure the Tavistock clinic has been captured by the same orthodoxy, then you have a reall problem, which is what's happening. That's entirely my point; this isn't a single string strategy.

You're right, its not that simple, but trans activists are trying to make it seem like it is and there's only one avenue.

Okay, but is there actual evidence of 14 year olds being able to go legally get drugs and operations without parental consent, because that would be genuine concern.

and I mean legally, because I could order you a thai bride, some cocaine and a AK-47 to your house if I wanted to.

Sure there's lots of cases of people regretting it, but how many cases are there out there of trans people saying it was the best thing they did etc?

It's almost like you're suggesting the intent of the trans community is to get as many genitals swapped around as possible, but why?

 

[DaGaffer]

Okay, but is there actual evidence of 14 year olds being able to go legally get drugs and operations without parental consent, because that would be genuine concern.

and I mean legally, because I could order you a thai bride, some cocaine and a AK-47 to your house if I wanted to.

Sure there's lots of cases of people regretting it, but how many cases are there out there of trans people saying it was the best thing they did etc?

It's almost like you're suggesting the intent of the trans community is to get as many genitals swapped around as possible, but why?

The intention in the Self-ID legislation is to speed up the transitioning process as much as possible, so Self-ID from 16, but the Tavistock and other places are recommending hormone suppression from as young as 14 and yes you need parental permission but we're in the real of asymmetric knowledge here; well-meaning parents take the advice of doctors who are being told not to pursue alternative therapies. As for "getting as many genitals swapped around as possible" - a cynical person might think of a lot of reasons why that might be the case. Not me, but a cynical person.

The Memorandum of Understanding on Conversion Therapy was originally a document rightly created in order to prevent conversion therapy for sexual orientation. However this document was updated in 2017 to include gender identity and it has been signed by many pro-trans institutions, by several psychotherapy bodies and also by the NHS. It regards all gender identities as of equal value and validity and states that no gender identity is to be preferred to any other. Attempts to help change or suppress a gender identity are seen as conversion therapy, unethical and potentially harmful. In practice this means that girls who believe they are boys are to be affirmed in that belief. Similarly boys who believe they are girls are to be affirmed in that belief. This limits the ability of clinicians to help children with these beliefs to be reconciled to their natal sex. If a clinician tries to challenge a child's misguided belief or explore its causes with a view to alleviating gender/sex confusion they run the risk of being accused of conversion therapy. This pressurises clinicians to adopt an affirmative approach to the beliefs of children and young people, affirming the gender they believe they are.

This addition of gender identity to the document reinforces the pseudoscientifc idea that gender (in terms of a gendered brain) is real and innate. This idea resulted in mine and many others traumatic medical transitions. The current MoU also creates double think and it is ironic because in fact a lot of the LGB community are pressured in one way or another to transition, sometimes used as a fix to appear heterosexual.

 

[Yoni]

So you agree?

Or are you saying that Reddit isn't a closed forum so therefore it's fair game?

Because as far as I'm concerned, if you think you're trans, but you live in bible belt America, where else do you get your advice?

No I do not agree a closed forum is set up and you are invited or can be invited it is a closed group - the information can not even be read by non members.

 

[Yoni]

Me in agreeing with something Scouse said in this thread shocker

me also oO

 

[Job]

View: https://youtu.be/dhzRsyk1Sa4

 

[Raven]

No, it just evolves.

 

[Deebs]

Been doing some research, apparently I am cisgender?!

Who fucking gave me that label? I am not cisgender, I am male.

There are now over 50 odd definitions for what gender you can be?