Is Eve gonna kill DAoC ?

[old.Tohtori]

Originally posted by old.Osy



erm, wrong.




Actually, player A discoveres that on planet 1 there is demand for kleenex going at 100 units. Player A jumps around system and/or different galaxies, finds cheap kleenex (5 units per piece), then proceeds to planet 1 with as much kleenex his ship can carry.
Problem is planet 1 has a limited demand, as in only 50 pieces of kleenex. Player A satisfies that demand, and suddenly planet 1 doesnt demand kleenex anymore, but pampers. Player A is now torn between:

a) finding a place with pampers.
b) finding a Planet 2, that also demands kleenex, since he already has a trade route established.
c) Give up trading and camp crossroad systems for innocent traders to pirate on.
d) Mining cotton, so he can manufacture pampers, thus meeting Planet's 1 demand.
e) Loging off, thinking EvE is a screwed up game, and annoying people on forums.

First off:

"erm, wrong"

Mind giving that a bit more info? Saying that newton was wrong doesn't quite cut it don't you think?

And you are giving an example about trading, not about the shopping/selling that goes between players.

 

[Alrindel]

Originally posted by katt!
no mmorpg, to my knowledge, except meridian 59 has truely died. even that was not due to "A NU ARPEGEE KEELING IT".

Actually, it's still going, believe it or not. A couple of the former developers formed their own studio and bought the rights to the game from 3DO to run it themselves. They have fewer than a thousand subscribers, but they are still running the game and putting out updates.

 

[trigali]

Originally posted by old.Tohtori
First off:

"erm, wrong"

Mind giving that a bit more info? Saying that newton was wrong doesn't quite cut it don't you think?

That's because he was right

 

[osy]

"...of the fact that nothing is bought from NPC merchants but from other players."

There ARE NPC corporations that sell items/minerals and ships. People buy from them.


erm, wrong™

 

[Olgark]

Shadowbane Europe I was beta testing it when the publishing company filed for insolvency ( meaing its in real finacial trouble)
I wont go there and getting to the US or Entranz servers looks like a pain in the arse. As all credit cards are scanned and if its a European on you will not be able to play. There is a work round for it though but from what I read its complicated and you would have to be dedicated to play it.

EVE Online. I like the look of this game. I loved Elite and always thought if it was a Online gmae then it would be pretty damn good. Mining is no problem after playing UO and mining for days on end. I guess I like to be bored out of my skull when playing a game

Dragon Empires yeh this will kill Camelot. I am already on the beta list waiting and drooling.

World of Warcraft ..... oh please leave it alone.

The next big one will be Warhammer Online. From Games Workshop in the UK. It looks great and they are using the skill table system from the table top RPG of the same name so there wont be levels as such and you can have your character take different carreer paths whenever you feel like it. Beta for this game is listed as being November 2003.

EQ2 ..... played EQ think it maybe more of the same. I may give it a try.

SWG. I was looking forward to this but from what I have read from people that are in beta it sucks. I will wait on this one although I am a massive Star Wars fan, and know most of the original star wars script off by heart. ( sad I know but its the truth).


But for me I will be moving to EVE when I get it through the post. And leave Camelot behind, getting tired of playing a game that is being nerfed due to people whinning on VN boards.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Originally posted by old.Osy
"...of the fact that nothing is bought from NPC merchants but from other players."

There ARE NPC corporations that sell items/minerals and ships. People buy from them.


erm, wrong™

Mind linking to the article about it? Since i had the thought it was one of the key elements that there were no NPC...atleast some game...SWG? I'm not sure but i remembered it was EvE.

 

[trigali]

Originally posted by Olgark
EVE Online. I like the look of this game. I loved Elite and always thought if it was a Online gmae then it would be pretty damn good. Mining is no problem after playing UO and mining for days on end. I guess I like to be bored out of my skull when playing a game

Lucky you. I am in Eve's beta and after only 2-3 days I'm already desperate to find something else to do. The graphics are incredible but the gameplay... well I haven't actually found a game yet, as mining really can't be considered 'playing'.

So I'm not convinced by that one.

 

[old.Kladen]

if world of warcraft will live up to what its expected. it will deffo take away alot of daoc players, its just looks so ace. player graphics are awesome.

 

[kr0n]

Originally posted by old.Tohtori
Mind linking to the article about it? Since i had the thought it was one of the key elements that there were no NPC...atleast some game...SWG? I'm not sure but i remembered it was EvE.

Im testing Eve at the moment and there are still a lot of stuff that doesnt work or hasnt been implemented yet, but there will be playerrun stations (aka cities) with player market and shit. Currently there are only NPC stations.

Eve looks nice but it indeed is a slow paced game and I dont really see what you can do in it... yet.

 

[old.pala hellraiser]

I was beta testing Eve but I found it so boring I couldn't do it any longer. Awesome graphics and all sorts of things to play with, but just not my sort of game, can't really compare it to DAOC.

 

[Killgorde]

Originally posted by kr0n
Eve looks nice but it indeed is a slow paced game and I dont really see what you can do in it... yet.

Eve is

a) PVP based to whatever degree you wish to participate.
b) Bloody huge, which makes the beta underpopulated.
c) Player rather than npc run. Inter racial (realm if you like without restriction of movement) and corporate (for that read guild) warfare & piracy (or bounty hunting the low-life scum) are the dominant PVP aspects.
d) You have the absolute freedom to become whatever you want, whether its an Industrialist, Combat related (PvP & PvE), Scientist, Trader, Drug Smuggler, Slaver, Pirate (ok...no training available yet for Brothel keeping which irks me somewhat ) Spy (yes its an honourable profession with training available). Or maybe a few of the above to a high degree given time.

http://www.eve-online.com/community/corps.asp gives you an idea on the pre-release preparation by the gamers themselves. I said months ago it was played at a higher level than any other game I have ever known. Take a tour of Hadean (mostly ex military guys) or Taggart (my parent corp - mostly business/IT peeps) to give yourselves a sample idea of whether the you are the kind of person attracted to this genre. Please remember that the key to a successful MMOG is the people you play with and against rather than the game itself (unless you like NPC-bashing Relic Raids at 7am).

To correct a point by Osy. When you look at a market it tells you what the demand is at your destination - something it maybe didnt do when he was in beta. If the demand is satisfied before you get there by some other git with a sharp eye for a quick profit, at least you have the tissues to wipe away the tears with when you get gazumped. Eve has closer to real life market economics than any other game around by the proverbial light year - but who'd want to be a trader when there's the chance of unleashing some awesome firepower on your enemies in an all-out corporate fleet battle?

When DaoC launched last year how much RvR was done for the first 3 months? It was only when a considerable number maxed 50 that it became fun maybe 5-6 months down the line. One thing I can assure you...no one will ever be able to max a char on Eve, but they will be able to create a versatile multi-talented char given time rather than playing alts, which is totally unlike DaoC.

Anyone who even remotely enjoyed David Braben's Elite series (way back before most of you were born) will be absolutely blown away with this creation. Its not everyones cup of tea, but those who have a grasp of the overall medium to long term picture (when the server matures - ala DaoC 6 months from release) are stunned at its potential.

 

[osy]

I want Killgorde's speech skill.

 

[baphomet]

Whatever the case is with thse new MMORPGs.
I won't be playing any of them until at least 6 moths after they're released, so hopefully the worst bugs will be worked out.

The only ones that there's a chance of me playing are Eve and maybe DE if my cashflow improves, otherwise I'll stick with DAOC, it has a nice online community and I know it fairly well and I'm happy enough with it.

 

[mib666]

Played Beta for about 3 hours, Shit, Boring, EMPTY.

Eve = Earth and Beyond with slightly more options.

Destined for complete and utter failure.

 

[Nightchill]

did you read the other threads mib666? as people have pointed out, EVE certainly doesn't have the instant gratification and relatively slow learning curve that DAoC does.. but the possibilites in it are enormous. Depth is perhaps the way forwards.

 

[mib666]

Originally posted by Nightchill
did you read the other threads mib666? .

Yeah I did, so WHATS your point. Am I not allowed an opinion???

They have to make Eve appealing to the gaming masses, imo this has not been done with Eve.

 

[katt!]

i know some people are probably sitting at home, masturbating and thinking about eve.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Originally posted by katt!
i know some people are probably sitting at home, masturbating and thinking about eve.

And some when they see a dragon drop.

 

[Killgorde]

Originally posted by mib666
They have to make Eve appealing to the gaming masses, imo this has not been done with Eve.

Define "masses" please. Sorry to rain on your parade but DaoC is not a "masses" game I'm afraid. Possibly 100k active players worldwide maybe? America's Army has 1.5 million registered players (ok so it is free but most people I know who play it would pay for the priviledge if asked to) but it might give you a perspective on the size of the overall market and how much impact DaoC actually has. Eve will find its niche and be very successful...and please bear in mind that the 100k playing DaoC could do so on Eve on one server and in one huge community because unlike Mythic/GOA, CCP are placing interconnecting server nodes all over the world to make the word "massive" just that, rather than some poxy 3.4 k server cap and a lag fest when it's reached.

Eve won't affect all the other games much (except it will kill E&B stone dead if it isnt that already - and gameplay/graphically it shafts Microsoft's Freelancer from all sides) because the market as a whole doesnt revolve around DaoC (as you seem to think mib666), but a very wide range of games. And if it did eat into the DaoC market to some small degree, hell those buggers at GOA could always put the subs up for existing players. Oops..they already announced that they were doing just this very thing recently, I believe.

Originally posted by mib666
Played Beta for about 3 hours, Shit, Boring, EMPTY.

Err...been to hibbieland recently? (Sorry Hibs, I know you have some great golf courses). And correct me if I'm wrong but isnt space a kinda "empty" place - aside from the 5k systems 15-20k active space stations and half a gazillion asteroid belts and planets that currently reside in the Eve universe of course.

As to "boring" I do agree that Eve is not in the first instance for those with the attention span of a goldfish (about 7 seconds) but I can't see how playing for 3 hours and not even scratching the surface of what's involved in the game gives anyone the right to call any game shit. I've been in beta 3 months and still haven't grasped all the dynamics myself - not sure if I ever will fully because of the variation.

I wouldnt knock DaoC as I've had great times playing it, but like every other game out there at present it is pretty one dimensional...i.e kill enemy players or kill mobs once you've maxed. Eve is multi-dimentional (see a list of some of the career paths listed above), no uber-buffed char will ever be "supreme" combat wise because skill, tactics and knowledge play a great part in the outcome of a battle, and has a far stronger roleplaying (nasty word that for those that play DaoC as a glorified CS) potential because of its diversity.

Ultimately it's the players involved who make or break a game, and if the great bunch of guys (not many 1337 mf's for better or worse) in the hardcore beta is any indication of whats to come, this game will rock bigtime and longtime. It won't be "better" than DaoC for those who like to make some strange irrelevant comparison, but it will be different.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Killgorde.

....

*claps*

 

[trigali]

Originally posted by Killgorde
Ultimately it's the players involved who make or break a game, and if the great bunch of guys (not many 1337 mf's for better or worse) in the hardcore beta is any indication of whats to come, this game will rock bigtime and longtime. It won't be "better" than DaoC for those who like to make some strange irrelevant comparison, but it will be different.

Well I don't like the play-ability in Eve very much but I completely agree with you there, Killgorde.

The people in there seem extremely, incredibly committed to Eve and that certainly should prove valuable help to the game.

 

[chi_]

No game will be able to kill the massive support that DAoC has received. A group of games such as EQ2 and SWG will, of course, dent it..but not enough to make a difference.
EQ2 doesn't interest me at all. I doubt it would interest many DAoCers with the lack of PvP. SWG is EQ in space as far as I can see..most of the interesting features planned have been removed, player cities etc. I would imagine most of the people who have been lead on by Mythics bull shitting for the last two years will continue to be sheep for a year or two longer anyway.

And to the idiots who have been disregarding SB: you can play it on the US/Asian servers with ease. The system used to enforce the regional lockouts only checks your zip code, which means you just enter the zip code of, for example, a university in the US. It does not check your credit card. I would also be interested to know how many of the people who say "I would not touch SB with a barge pole" have even played the game.

Graphics >> Newbies

Oh, and by the way, EVE was never a threat to DAoC.

 

[TheGap]

Excuse the rambling, post pub pontificating is never a good idea

I've been interested in this subject for a while, and from what I see the only thing DAoC has to worry about are Dragon Empires and EQ2.

Eve really *is* boring, however there is a certain type of MMORPG player who loves "the game" for its own sake. So Eve will be full of people committed to Eve regardless of how good or bad the game is. You know the personality type, obsessive, illogical, and someone who enjoys the flaws of the game because it proves their commitment. For exapmple, myself and most of the people who post here So DAoC will lose some players to EVE, but only the players who didn't love DAoC anyway.

DISCLAIMER I hated elite Now Paradroid Online, there's my life partner baby.

Anyway, the one thing most of us forget is that DAoC really is an outstandingly well designed game. Content and balance issues aside, the fundamental 3 realm RvR system is a winning one, and has enough non-player intervention to mean that it can't be killed by greifers, grey-gankers or l33t kiddies. This is one of the reasons people love it and play it.

My fear for Dragon Empires is simply that if you put your game into the hands of your player base you are creating the possibility that "they" will kill your game. Pure PvP games always have this flaw. The makers of DE know this and how they combat this issue will, I believe, make or break the game. I know Dragon Empires is not sold as pure PvP, but unless they have the balance of PvE and PvP that DAoC has, then the possibility of servers being overtaken by muppets will remain. Think of DAoC as PvP with HUGE safe areas (Hib/Alb/Mid) and you see what I mean. You can live in your safe area until the greifers get bored. Which is what happened when Mid ruled Prydwen because nobody else had any lvl 50s.

Then we come to the 800lb gorilla, which is not SWG, but EQ2.

EQ is the Daddy, still the biggest in terms of revenue (apparently in the region of $100 million a year) and still the one game which defined MMPORGs.** Personally I believe Sony will kill EQ themselves. If it is by goading the makers of ShowEQ into making a windows version, or by slowly removing the resources they spend on the game. Sure some people will stay for the reasons I outlined above, but if the majority of people move on, then the game is effectivel dead. (see M69 or A Tale in The Desert)


This death of EQ will happen *only* if EQ2 becomes a success, to make it a success they have to create a game so good that all those lvl 65 toons on EQ will reroll on EQ2. A game that makes you give up a couple of years of play time is something Mythic will have to be wary of. So EQ2 is competing against EQ not against DAoC, but if they "win" then DAoC will lose by default. Personally, I think the level of "DAoC imitation" we will see in these new games will show just how groundbreaking our beloved DAoC is.

What will kill DAoC? A game which takes the best bits from DAoC and makes them better. Whether this will be DE, EQ2 or even DAoC2 only time will tell. From the betas I've seen, Mark Jacobs still has at least twelve months before he has to start justifying that lovely VC money he's been getting lately.

Cue flames, laughing and the destruction of all my arguments.

I'm off to bed.


**(I know many games came before it, but EQ is the one that went mainstream and got the less hardcore of gamers to pick up and play).

 

[katt!]

Define "masses" please. Sorry to rain on your parade but DaoC is not a "masses" game I'm afraid. Possibly 100k active players worldwide maybe?

more than 250k active accounts.

America's Army has 1.5 million registered players (ok so it is free but most people I know who play it would pay for the priviledge if asked to)

no they wouldnt. and you know it.

but it might give you a perspective on the size of the overall market and how much impact DaoC actually has.

mmorpg with second highest amount of subscribers. not counting asia.

Eve will find its niche and be very successful

define "very succesful" if it is a "niche" game.

And correct me if I'm wrong but isnt space a kinda "empty" place - aside from the 5k systems 15-20k active space stations and half a gazillion asteroid belts and planets that currently reside in the Eve universe of course.

alot of space. few players. buy freelancer and play singleplayer instead.

 

[logan6]

"you spend alot of time doing nothing between jumps"

Jumps take some seconds of your time, moving around is generally quite fast.

Eve has hands down the coolest character creation system besides Fallout Truly well done, the portrait evolves a lot of life if you turn the head and the eyes keep their focus, just cool.

Pros:

Character Creation! Infinite Number of different looking characters due to face morphing (chin, eye part, mouth and general face shape) and a zillion of options for tatoos, lipstick colours, lighting, skin/eye colours, beards, goggles, cosmetics... lots and lots of this.

Has the certain "Elite" feeling, to those who still know that classic. I enjoyed trading goods a lot - shame you need to mine first if you want to do that..

Graphics are fine

Ship designs are truly innovative and most are nice - some are just too odd (bobas slave 1 looks plain compared to these aliens)

Controlls are smooth and well done - once you get the hang..


Cons:

incredible high learning curve, it took a long time to get the grip

What to do?! Well you can mine, you can mine and trade a bit - there seems to be no combat in the early stage. I had to travel VERY far to meet some pirates, who zerged me guess where i met them - in an asteroid field, where i wanted to mine

Mining is dominant

Seems to involve even more time than other mmorpgs. Buying a new ship type is truly taking some massive money amounts.



Given its early stage... well this doesnt seem to be my type of game. Its well done so far, quality work really. But a lot has to happen here still

 

[Killgorde]

/em sighs at the youth of today

The actual topic was "Is Eve gonna kill DaoC?" Katt. It decidedly will not. If you would like to lower the debate to the usual immature "My game is great and yours sux" level (an attitude I think everyone will agree is prevalent in a number of different ways in the DaoC community) thats your call.

Logged into Camelotherald this morning and found 15k players online worldwide. To my knowledge there are approx 30 DaoC servers of which Excalibur is the most popular with 3000 at peak. Do the maths please Katt.

Your assertions are based on what you personally want out of a game, i.e. lots of fauna and flora to look at and mobs/enemies to bash (can't imagine there's anything else, judging by your comments). Some of us (and this is where the word "niche" comes in) require something that is mentally stimulating and demanding. Please don't try to convince me DaoC has either of these in abundance or I'll put you forward for the recently vacated position at the Iraqi Information Ministry. Its just a good blast - like perpetual CS - and as such it is enjoyable.

How successful will Eve's niche be? And is success defined by numbers or the satisfaction of those playing? Who gives a toss whether more people play it than any other game as long as those that do have a great time and get fulfilment from it? And do bear in mind that come release it will be 1 server with a worldwide 24 time zone community (yes, even the bloody kangeroo shaggers) rather than fragmented and restricted communities of other mmog's I could mention. Some of us like to be intellectually stimulated and want a bit more from our gaming experience than mindless escapism and instant gratification (err - for that read "Emain-Zerg Nightly." Mostly you will find that we are a different generation (+25 judging by the regulars I talk to) and if nothing else Eve's "niche" may be that it will be predominantly "l33t-kiddie powergamer free" because it will attract the more mature, less selfish and more patient types who want something a lot deeper than what's around game-wise at present, if the current crop playing the beta are anything to go by.

Theres a game I'm fond of (and used to be shit hot at back when cars were powered by steam) that's been played for thousands of years on a board with 64 squares and 32 pieces. It requires no eye candy to be enjoyable. It broadens and sharpens the mind like no other. Still very popular, I gather. I reckon more people play it than they do DaoC. It's called chess. Horses for courses? Think about it.

 

[kain_pravus]

Eve and DAoC, other than being online game I feel can't be compared.... Unless theres hibbies armed with lazers out there in deep space

I'm in Eve beta... and I love the game, plus I haven't logged into DAoC since.

Just for me, lvl 50 is boring and leveling to 50 is worse, but I'm keepling my account cos I can play both games depending on mood.

One thing i do urge you to remember, Eve is in beta... Theres going to be ALOT to it, just right now minning is the fastest way to make money, but that won't alway be the case. It has infinatly more potential than DAoC.

 

[chi_]

Originally posted by kain_pravus
One thing i do urge you to remember, Eve is in beta... Theres going to be ALOT to it, just right now minning is the fastest way to make money, but that won't alway be the case. It has infinatly more potential than DAoC.

Everything has more potential than DAoC, it is possible the most restrictive carebear game I have ever played.

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

Offtopic:

TheGap? Steven Donaldson fan by any chance?

 

[katt!]

The actual topic was "Is Eve gonna kill DaoC?" Katt. It decidedly will not. If you would like to lower the debate to the usual immature "My game is great and yours sux" level (an attitude I think everyone will agree is prevalent in a number of different ways in the DaoC community) thats your call.

actually, it was you that went to that level with false facts etc. i dont care about daoc - i care about eve fanboi arguments.

Logged into Camelotherald this morning and found 15k players online worldwide. To my knowledge there are approx 30 DaoC servers of which Excalibur is the most popular with 3000 at peak. Do the maths please Katt.

do you really think you can count the numbers of subscribers that way? i hope not.

Your assertions are based on what you personally want out of a game, i.e. lots of fauna and flora to look at and mobs/enemies to bash (can't imagine there's anything else, judging by your comments).

i certainly do not want a world where the same space station is copy-pasted 15000 times, just so they can put a sticker with "15K+ space stations to visit" on the box.

Some of us like to be intellectually stimulated and want a bit more from our gaming experience than mindless escapism and instant gratification (err - for that read "Emain-Zerg Nightly." Mostly you will find that we are a different generation (+25 judging by the regulars I talk to) and if nothing else Eve's "niche" may be that it will be predominantly "l33t-kiddie powergamer free" because it will attract the more mature, less selfish and more patient types who want something a lot deeper than what's around game-wise at present, if the current crop playing the beta are anything to go by.

i bet almost everyone who played elite back in the day (and are into mmorpgs) are waiting for eve.

How successful will Eve's niche be? And is success defined by numbers or the satisfaction of those playing?

success is measured in numbers. if its a good game that appeals to a few people - good, but i do think the developers will consider it a failure.

Who gives a toss whether more people play it than any other game as long as those that do have a great time and get fulfilment from it?

the developers, publishers etc.