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[Vasconcelos]

its the ol' chicken and the egg thing i guess from young persons perspective

companies want someone with experience and are not willing to hire someone without

young people want experience but cant get a job because they dont have it

so youth unemployment goes up while eventually industries suffer because companies (especially in a recession) are not willing to risk a "dud" employee (which is fair enough i guess, its their money) during times when cash is very tight

but it is a nasty spiral to get in to.

is a nasty spiral which could be broken by the companies as soon as they accept to get less benefits ("risk a dude employee") in order to save a system thats collapsing (how long till they realize that they cannot sell their products / service to a whole generation cuz they have no means to buy them? ).

the youngster dont have any means in order to break the spyral atm, unless emigrating and with them, their money (in this case, the money theyll get from working abroad).

And in this context, the politicians caste, blatantly in league with the companies (at least here). So, in fact, the movement is protesting against the alliance politics+companies.

 

[Ormorof]

yes but short-term thinking is the order of the day in Europe, Business people want to make a quick buck and politicians want to get re-elected (and get as many scoops from the gravy train as possible)

best thing you could do (or any of the dudes in the square) is stand in elections yourselves, form own political party and keep pestering them until they agree to change things... or have a violent revolution, followed by a civil war to decide how things should be run afterwards (that seems to be the way of revolutions, from my point of view anyway)

either way its going to take some time before the thinking changes, gotta get the old dudes out and let the young people become old and then the new young....

ok now my head hurts, time for coffee!

also i realise nothing i write makes much sense, not even to myself most of the time

 

[Gumbo]

It's a spiral which has been moaned about for years.

And yet we carry on.

When you're young, you don't get paid much and you do shitty jobs. As you get older you get paid more and generally do less shitty jobs.

It's how things work. We have enough problems stored up looking after the older generations, without babying the youth through as well.

On a related note, the introduction of the minimum wage was a terrible idea. I now, as an employer, can't afford to employ a Saturday lad who might be in college to cut the grass and clean boats around here, even though there are a few about who would do it for peanuts so that they have some work on their cv. All because the government says what I should pay him.

More meddling in the labour markets would only lead to one outcome.

 

[Helme]

One could argue that less meddling in labour markets would lead to another 19th century with 12 hour workdays 6 days a week for wages less than the bare minimum to survive. I mean, take the US - they're seriously regressing on their hard-won labour policies. Hell, I saw a politician in Florida arguing for child labour a few months ago and he was sincere.

 

[Fafnir]

is a nasty spiral which could be broken by the companies as soon as they accept to get less benefits ("risk a dude employee") in order to save a system thats collapsing (how long till they realize that they cannot sell their products / service to a whole generation cuz they have no means to buy them? ).

the youngster dont have any means in order to break the spyral atm, unless emigrating and with them, their money (in this case, the money theyll get from working abroad).

I bet alot of companies would love to get a few "risk dudes" but the demand on their profits from the stock owners are way to high today, if a company only makes 100 million profit instead of the projected 110 million, the stock takes a dive.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

if you mean the benefits, it depends on how long have you been working before being unemployed. Iiirc, to get the full unmployer salary (around 1000€), you have to have worked for a minimum period of 24 months straight. That salary will last you for around 20 months again iirc.

Like any ohter european social security system, that unemployed salary comes from the % the goverment "drags" from your monthly salary when you are working.

What period of time is that €1000? A month? If that's the case, that's astonishingly high - no wonder you won't want to work. So you can earn €20,000 not working because you once had a job for two years?

What a fucking disgrace.

 

[Vasconcelos]

I bet alot of companies would love to get a few "risk dudes" but the demand on their profits from the stock owners are way to high today, if a company only makes 100 million profit instead of the projected 110 million, the stock takes a dive.

the stock is gonna take a dive anyways the things are now. Its just a matter of time.

 

[Vasconcelos]

What period of time is that €1000? A month? If that's the case, that's astonishingly high - no wonder you won't want to work. So you can earn €20,000 not working because you once had a job for two years?

What a fucking disgrace.

read carefully, the figures I gave are the max and min. It depends on the amount of time spent working and the amount of money won n thus contributed to the system.

Oh! and btw, its not a "free salary". Wanna know how much I earn before the gov takes his share of the cake and how much after? I should be earning around 800€ more a month if not for the contributions to the social security system.

I paid for that salary each month I worked.

You prefer the american system. Fair enough. But dont think that we have free unemployed salary my friend.

 

[Helme]

What period of time is that €1000? A month? If that's the case, that's astonishingly high - no wonder you won't want to work. So you can earn €20,000 not working because you once had a job for two years?

What a fucking disgrace.

Sorry, but no. €1000 a month isn't that much, minimum living costs in the UK is around £13000 a year or €14.7k

Remember this is also only for people who've worked 24 months full time - at the same place. People who haven't gotten those 24 months in, for various reasons(shitty shirt-term contracts for Manpower and such for example) are even more fucked, and gets even less money.

Or as is the case for the youth - they don't get ANY money at all until they've gotten their first job and held it for 12 months.

 

[TdC]

What period of time is that €1000? A month? If that's the case, that's astonishingly high - no wonder you won't want to work. So you can earn €20,000 not working because you once had a job for two years?

What a fucking disgrace.

doesn't work that way dude, you're interpreting it wrong. same in the NL. I had a mate who, due to certain issues, didn't have a job in over 10 years. You end up with a seriously tiny amount of support depending on your rent or if you have a family or not.

in NL, were I to be made redundant say, I will get 75% of my last earned for a defined period, like one year iirc. That is not for free: I paid for that while working, together with everyone else who works. That's how a social support network works. Everyone pays a little, for the greater good.

 

[Vasconcelos]

doesn't work that way dude, you're interpreting it wrong. same in the NL. I had a mate who, due to certain issues, didn't have a job in over 10 years. You end up with a seriously tiny amount of support depending on your rent or if you have a family or not.

in NL, were I to be made redundant say, I will get 75% of my last earned for a defined period, like one year iirc. That is not for free: I paid for that while working, together with everyone else who works. That's how a social support network works. Everyone pays a little, for the greater good.

exactly the same here.

after you run out of the max 24 months of unemployment wage, you can apply for the (literal translation here): social salary, which is something aimed for the poorest strates of society (homeless mainly) with no family or any other means to survive. Its around 300€ /month, and obviously, youngsters living with their parents dont have right to it.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

So you work for two years straight, then can quit your job and earn €1000 p/m doing nothing, just because you previously had a job? That seems very high. Bear in mind in the UK, regardless of ex job entitlements you get what, £80 every fortnight, how is that not very high in comparison with us?

 

[Helme]

You can quit your job... get on the benefits and have them run out and then try to explain to your next employer why you have a year gap on your CV after you left your old job. This is not the same thing as social security or whatever. You PAY for this yourself during the time you're actually working. It should probably be renamed from benefits to insurance, because thats what it boils down to´.

 

[TdC]

no, you CAN'T quit and reap benifits guys, make no mistake.

quit, and you get 70% of the minimum wage salary, which equates -if you are a family- to about 800 euros a month. if you're not a family it's less. get made redundant, and you have a right to 70% of your last earned salary...for a period that is linked to how long you worked -in a single continuous period- before that. after that it goes down to the base level.

do not misunderstand me, Europe is certainly not the land of plenty.

edit: and indeed, as Helme says, you get the joy of explaining to your next employer why you were fucking about.

 

[Tom]

Doesn't people employed in the private sector already have quite a bigger paycheck than state jobs?

:

 

[Raven]

Doesn't people employed in the private sector already have quite a bigger paycheck than state jobs?

No idea about Spain but in the UK the public sector get paid more for doing far less and not having to worry about keeping the company they work at in business.

 

[throdgrain]

What period of time is that €1000? A month? If that's the case, that's astonishingly high - no wonder you won't want to work. So you can earn €20,000 not working because you once had a job for two years?

What a fucking disgrace.

I love you.

 

[rynnor]

If there's no youth jobs in spain why not go elsewhere in the EU - even doing a crap job you can pick up another EU language which can be valuable in the future?

 

[cHodAX]

It is a difficult subject, [eople in the U.K. still bitch about the £65 a week we give to the unemployed and ask them to live on. I might keep bashing on about this but our own benefit system is screwed as well because we don't pay enough at the low end but far far far too much at the high end. We push alot of youngsters into crime asking them to live on that pittance. Of course we have to encourage people out to work and that starts by not giving them a decent amount to live on when they are out of work but what we currently pay is obscenely low, still I would rather that than the situation Ireland are in where they are paying 200 euro plus a week in unemployment benefit a week which is going to bankrupt Ireland if not slashed. Spain seems to be somewhere in the middle, zero benefits if you leave school and can't find a job because there are no jobs or you never qualify for benefits because all work is seasonal and thus you never hit 24 months in work consecutively. Then you have the ones who are eligable, raking in 1000 euros a month? Madness, I don't see how that system is fair to anyone.

 

[TdC]

Hello Cho, have you actually read what Helme, Vas and I wrote?

 

[Wazzerphuk]

You can quit your job... get on the benefits and have them run out and then try to explain to your next employer why you have a year gap on your CV after you left your old job. This is not the same thing as social security or whatever. You PAY for this yourself during the time you're actually working. It should probably be renamed from benefits to insurance, because thats what it boils down to´.

edit: and indeed, as Helme says, you get the joy of explaining to your next employer why you were fucking about.

"I'm Spanish. I was on siesta." Rehired.

I love you.

xx

 

[TdC]

"I'm Spanish. I was on siesta." Rehired.

you know what I was saying

 

[Punishment]

People looking at a completely different social welfare system and judging it against it's UK counterpart is a waste of time

In the UK you just need to spring out 2 kids and your set for life, every system is different

 

[Helme]

I really don't get what is so hard to understand about this? You don't get access to this amazing unemployment government scam unless YOU PAY FOR IT YOURSELF BY WORKING FOR AT LEAST 24 CONSECUTIVE MONTHS. If you don't do that YOU GET NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING.

But go ahead, rage against it. Let's dismantle unemployment benefits people pay for themselves. I hope people who argue against it lose your jobs after we do that, because it'll be fucking hilarious.

 

[Vasconcelos]

So you work for two years straight, then can quit your job and earn €1000 p/m doing nothing, just because you previously had a job? That seems very high. Bear in mind in the UK, regardless of ex job entitlements you get what, £80 every fortnight, how is that not very high in comparison with us?

You lose the right for the unemployed wage if you quit your job.

next?

 

[Fafnir]

You lose the right for the unemployed wage if you quit your job.

next?

Or you can do like a mate of mine, called in sick, gave a fuck about the work, until they fired him.

 

[Vasconcelos]

Or you can do like a mate of mine, called in sick, gave a fuck about the work, until they fired him.

If you do that, a judge will declare it "legal fire" thus losing your unemployed wage right and the termination of employment pay. Its not that simple, if you said trying to reach a consensus with your employer to fire you, instead...

We could keep arguing 'bout this kind of tricks ad-aeternum, but its kinda losing the point of the thread, which is already forgotten enough

 

[Fafnir]

If you do that, a judge will declare it "legal fire" thus losing your unemployed wage right and the termination of employment pay. Its not that simple, if you said trying to reach a consensus with your employer to fire you, instead...

We could keep arguing 'bout this kind of tricks ad-aeternum, but its kinda losing the point of the thread, which is already forgotten enough

Not in Sweden, he got out 10 years of benefits until we changed goverment and they started cracking down on the "cheaters" unfortunatly alot of innocents where caught in the middle and have suffered greatly.

But then again the swedish social democratic party that ruled sweden pretty much the past 60-80 years, have fucked up our economy. they took 32 billion SEK from the old pension system and notice they could not go on with that system due to too little money left, so they forced us all to invest our pension money in the stock market.

 

[Helme]

And now our right-wing party is doing its best to sell out national assets, it's a wonderful world.

 

[Vasconcelos]

Yep, to be honest I was surprised enough that hes trying a comparision with Spain instead any of the nordic countries, which are the ones with the strongest and more developed social security systems of all the world...