News Indignez-vous

[Vasconcelos]

Something is happening in Spain

BBC News - Spanish youth rally in Madrid echoes Egypt protests

I was there yesterday, and indeed, it felt like it might be the seed of change. I just hope it doesnt end up with cars and shops burned down, or in a bluff after 2 weeks.

The situation is reaching a critical point, not only from an economic pov, but from a social and political view too

 

[TdC]

Wow Vas, that's some impressive stuff. Are you going to get involved?

 

[Ormorof]

yeah more than 20% does not happy youths make :/

but will take more than 2000 people to get anything done, i think one of the major problems in europe now is people just dont care, the apathy is incredible "why bother voting, they are all the same and arent going to make my life any easier" is something ive heard from people in Ireland, UK, Denmark, Finland, Belgium, and Holland and i imagine the same is being said by a lot of young people in Spain.

from my POV at least its true, the problem is this apathy only increases the "under representation" of these people, and doesnt really help

 

[Vasconcelos]

Wow Vas, that's some impressive stuff. Are you going to get involved?

I was there indeed (trying to post some pics), but cant get involved mainly because it has spring as a complete spontaneus movement, in 24hrs using facebook and twitter (yesterday's world top hashtag btw), and theres no organization per se, except a "Popular Assembly" who cares for logistics and such things.

The main point for now is trying to open the eyes of the spaniards, and to motivate those who are sick of the current situation: you only need to spread the movement in the net (facebook, forums, twetter etc...) and attend the pacific protests.

Trying to contribute with my 2 cents here

 

[Billargh]

Maybe they should get jobs instead of protesting about unemployment?

Spoiler

 

[TdC]

I was there indeed (trying to post some pics), but cant get involved mainly because it has spring as a complete spontaneus movement, in 24hrs using facebook and twitter (yesterday's world top hashtag btw), and theres no organization per se, except a "Popular Assembly" who cares for logistics and such things.

The main point for now is trying to open the eyes of the spaniards, and to motivate those who are sick of the current situation: you only need to spread the movement in the net (facebook, forums, twetter etc...) and attend the pacific protests.

Trying to contribute with my 2 cents here

good man! though volunteering for the food and drink runs and things would be frigging awesome tbh. Fight the good fight and all that!

 

[Wazzerphuk]

Maybe they should get jobs instead of protesting about unemployment?

Spoiler

They claim they need to sleep mid way through the day to even get to the evening without dying, there's no hope for them. Cull them all, move us there and everyone's a winner.

 

[Chilly]

Why dont they all club together and buy some land and build something or start a company or something? Fuck em, no sympathy.

 

[Gumbo]

What are they asking for? An end to democracy?

 

[Vasconcelos]

Why dont they all club together and buy some land and build something or start a company or something? Fuck em, no sympathy.

I understand that you aré entitled to your own opinión anda that you dont simpatize with us, but why fuck us?

 

[Chilly]

Not literally. Although, I might anyway, just for laughs.

 

[Vasconcelos]

Not literally. Although, I might anyway, just for laughs.

aha...

ok I guess

 

[throdgrain]

So what do they want, jobs created for them? It cant be

 

[Helme]

I wish them luck.

I also wish governments would look into the job guarantee programs again, because it costs about the same as unemployment benefits while actually producing real jobs that are needed(cleaning, fixing roads, etc.)

Sadly, I doubt they're ever going to bother. If private firms would have to start offering better pay/benefits than the state... well they might not be able to spend all their winnings on bonuses! The horror.

 

[Ch3tan]

The problem is Helme, that when we had job creation in the UK, it was pointless admin roles that ended up crippling the public sector.

I think it's a mix of peoples expectations in regards to roles and governments unwillingness to annoy voters.

 

[Helme]

It's actually a slightly different program, the idea is to give EVERYONE who wants a job, a job. With the taxes on these jobs, and with the fact that private corporations would have to increase wages to compete(they benefit the most from high unemployment) it practically pays for itself. The important thing with the program is that, you're actually creating REAL jobs - not make believe ones like the admin ones. There are a lot of things that needs doing, but that simply put isn't being done.

edit: You also get increased commodity trading, ~5-10% of your population suddenly can afford luxury goods, increasing tax revenue even more.

 

[Ch3tan]

Yes but that would impact all those private companies that are contracted to do those jobs currently.... so you are putting people out of work in order to put people in work for the state...

 

[Helme]

There's tons of jobs that are needed but are 'too expensive'. Think teachers assistants, people who keep the elderly company, street cleaners, and so on.

Sure some might not be jobs in the traditional sense, but if they can improve the world in some minor way don't you think it's worth the cost of a few missiles? Besides, if the private sector loses out to the state - it's because they aren't paying enough. You can argue that it would remove profits from the private sector but really, the profits will just be spread out slightly more evenly rather than just at the top. Basically - it's a minimum wage.

But as I said, it's never going to happen either way - because unemployment benefits the people with money, who in turn influences politics more than any voter ever could. High unemployment means you can pick and choose between people with 10 years of experience, and university educations to man the grill at McDonalds - and pay him minimum wage.

 

[Ch3tan]

It's never good when the state takes jobs away from private sector. All those jobs exist in the UK, maybe Sweden is very different.

 

[megadave]

Why dont they all club together and buy some land and build something or start a company or something? Fuck em, no sympathy.

Yeah, that really sounds like an easy thing to do for a bunch of unemployed young people ...

 

[Helme]

Obviously those jobs exist everywhere, but not to the extent that they could - and for a very small cost(if any at all). If private corporations can't compete, then by the very own principles they hold so dear(free markets) they should go out of business. The thing is though, they can compete - and easily at that, all it requires is shifting money from CEO's to actual workers. Especially considering the 5-10%(or in Spain's case 20%) more customers they'd get.

 

[sayward]

Am I wrong in thinking the young unemployed in Spain get far too many benefits, that is a lot more than the uk, to really look for work?

 

[Gumbo]

Helme, with all due respect, you're an idiot.

If I was forced to put up the wages I pay my lot, I would go out of business, and there would be 5 less people in employment. Of course they could then get state funded jobs, and repay maybe 40% back in taxes, but who pays the other 60%?

The taxpayers working in private companies?

Er, no, remember, we just laid another 5 off because of your idiot scheme.

Jaysus...

 

[Lethul]

Doesn't people employed in the private sector already have quite a bigger paycheck than state jobs?

 

[Vasconcelos]

Am I wrong in thinking the young unemployed in Spain get far too many benefits, that is a lot more than the uk, to really look for work?

well unless the younglings in UK have to pay the state when theyr unemployed, i cant see how the spaniards get too many benefits.

There are no benefits for unemployed youngsters who havent accesed to the labour market in their lifes. In Spain you have to have a job for 12 months minimum in order to access the social security unemployed salary system which uses to mean around 600€/month for a max period of time of 18 months (depending how long had you been working previously).

No 1st job = no unemployed benefits

The main subject of the protest is to end with this politic caste we have in Spain, the two primary parties: left and right been equally corrupt and equally scratching each others backs, that the population have grown extremly tired of it ((the movement does include ppl from all ages, yesterday i had a granny by my side screaming like mad)

 

[Gumbo]

Yes, but what alternative are they looking for?

 

[Wazzerphuk]

So no 1st job, no benefits, what are they like after that first job? Stupidly good?

 

[Helme]

Helme, with all due respect, you're an idiot.

If I was forced to put up the wages I pay my lot, I would go out of business, and there would be 5 less people in employment. Of course they could then get state funded jobs, and repay maybe 40% back in taxes, but who pays the other 60%?

The taxpayers working in private companies?

Er, no, remember, we just laid another 5 off because of your idiot scheme.

Jaysus...

The idea is that this 60% is already being paid in unemployment benefits - but this way you're actually getting something useful out of the people rather than all of them sitting at home watching TV.

As I said before, this is NOT the programs your governments are introducing now. The entire idea behind this is to offer a buffer of sorts, yes private corporations not being 'fair' will be fucked over. On the other hand, their profits will also rise due to the 1 time price increase on pretty much all consumer goods due to the unemployment population getting more purchasing power. Not to mention the other benefits, for example employees with more experience(thus less risk in hiring them).

I'll try to dig up the articles/studies I had on this - it was a year or two since I read through most of it.

 

[Vasconcelos]

So no 1st job, no benefits, what are they like after that first job? Stupidly good?

if you mean the benefits, it depends on how long have you been working before being unemployed. Iiirc, to get the full unmployer salary (around 1000€), you have to have worked for a minimum period of 24 months straight. That salary will last you for around 20 months again iirc.

Like any ohter european social security system, that unemployed salary comes from the % the goverment "drags" from your monthly salary when you are working.

 

[Ormorof]

its the ol' chicken and the egg thing i guess from young persons perspective

companies want someone with experience and are not willing to hire someone without

young people want experience but cant get a job because they dont have it

so youth unemployment goes up while eventually industries suffer because companies (especially in a recession) are not willing to risk a "dud" employee (which is fair enough i guess, its their money) during times when cash is very tight

but it is a nasty spiral to get in to.